what happens with the balance of the pvp?

[Capultro]

Why do I have the feeling that the melee are out of control?
I say this because every time I play with caster I have huge problems vs melee .... so much so, that I am thinking about not playing with casters, since melees are currently better in everything, and, easier to use, some with 1 button you are already top dps (dh).

[sensei-]

Why do I have the feeling that the melee are out of control?
I say this because every time I play with caster I have huge problems vs melee .... so much so, that I am thinking about not playing with casters, since melees are currently better in everything, and, easier to use, some with 1 button you are already top dps (dh).

Anyone who thinks DH are ”top dps” with 1 button are beyond help and you should just delete this thread and your account. Casters have a higher skill curve, sure, but no matter what you’ll play you’ll suck compared to your peers. As a DH you’ll be judged against the other DHs instead of some random Feral Druid for example. That means guys like you are doomed no matter what you decide to play.

[Rucati]

He is not wrong on that though, DH's are ridiculously easy to play in any content and are OP in PvP on top of it.

But I mean this is simply false. DH are strong in 2s because of mana burn, sure, but in 3s they're mid tier at best and more likely thought of as low tier. They lack MS which limits their comps, burn is infinitely harder to land in 3s which lowers its usefulness, and they're squishy enough to die quite fast to most comps. There's a reason there's only 2 DH in the top 100 of the 3s ladder in NA, only other class with that little representation is Hunter and I think we all know they're basically garbage.

That being said, this thread is weird because casters are legit broken in PvP right now. Destro is far and away the strongest spec in both 2s and 3s, and Mages are incredibly strong in both brackets as well (though stronger in 3s). Hell even Shadow Priest is really strong right now, and Elemental isn't bad either it's just not very popular in general.

The weakest classes, at least from a competitive/balance standpoint, are all melee. DH, Warrior, DK and Feral/Enh are all basically nonexistent at high ratings. WW and Rogues are both really strong because they both bring lots of utility but more importantly they synergize well with the casters, namely Mages and Warlocks.

[Segus1992]

Anyone who thinks DH are ”top dps” with 1 button are beyond help and you should just delete this thread and your account. Casters have a higher skill curve, sure, but no matter what you’ll play you’ll suck compared to your peers. As a DH you’ll be judged against the other DHs instead of some random Feral Druid for example. That means guys like you are doomed no matter what you decide to play.

Damn, someone got extremely offended over being called out on playing DH. Face it, DH is easy as shit, and has WAY higher performance per skill required than any other class, especially in 2s.

[Rucati]

Maybe the OP is playing 2s then, that could explain his frustration. I have watched streamed high-rated 2s and seen DH's just spam down people.

Sure, but Blizzard has said time and time again they only balance PvP around 3s. So being upset that a bracket that is meant to be unbalanced is in fact unbalanced seems a little bit silly.

[ArenaDk]

Why do I have the feeling that the melee are out of control?
I say this because every time I play with caster I have huge problems vs melee .... so much so, that I am thinking about not playing with casters, since melees are currently better in everything, and, easier to use, some with 1 button you are already top dps (dh).

Meele are out of control? Dh maybe. But else its a Warlock/firemage meta with the occasionsl RMP and elemental shamen thrown in

Heck on 2,4+ destro Warlock is at a 12% played rate of over 30 specs

[Lubefist]

Fire mages and destruction locks are one of the most broken specs in the game.

Sure, rogue is the most OP class in arena right now but can't say casters are struggling atm.

[sensei-]

Damn, someone got extremely offended over being called out on playing DH. Face it, DH is easy as shit, and has WAY higher performance per skill required than any other class, especially in 2s.

LOL @ ”performance per skill required” as if it’s some analytical measurement unit. Do I understand your scientific argument correctly that you’re saying clicking Chaos Strike, an ability which does basically no real damage at all, makes the user perform better per click than the guy clicking Chaos Bolt? Are you refining your APM based performance scale?

All we have here ladies and gentlemen is a couple of angry noobs using their own experiences from failing against melee in the low brackets as universal proof the whole game is rigged against them, when every statistical tool in the game is speaking to the contrary. Melee are average at best, and their only shining spot in the entire content is in Mythic+. Both arena and raiding are dominated by casters.

[ArenaDk]

Fire mages and destruction locks are one of the most broken specs in the game.

Sure, rogue is the most OP class in arena right now but can't say casters are struggling atm.

Destro is still the most op no skill class. However rogue is high up there , specially because rogue x caster works really good

[DaniMor]

same feeling

[callipygoustp]

Casters are weak? I tear shit up pretty effectively with my Destro lock, shadow priest, and frost mage. I don't know OP, practice more.

[Segus1992]

LOL @ ”performance per skill required” as if it’s some analytical measurement unit. Do I understand your scientific argument correctly that you’re saying clicking Chaos Strike, an ability which does basically no real damage at all, makes the user perform better per click than the guy clicking Chaos Bolt? Are you refining your APM based performance scale?

All we have here ladies and gentlemen is a couple of angry noobs using their own experiences from failing against melee in the low brackets as universal proof the whole game is rigged against them, when every statistical tool in the game is speaking to the contrary. Melee are average at best, and their only shining spot in the entire content is in Mythic+. Both arena and raiding are dominated by casters.

Dominated by casters, eh?

I get that you're offended that I tell you you're playing an easy class, but your feelings don't really matter on the subject. DHs (Havoc, to specify) are the easiest melee, and melee is the easiest role.

Mind you, if you don't understand: easy does not mean strong. DHs are exceedingly easy, and they're strong at the same time.

[Doffen]

Dominated by casters, eh?

https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=3v3&faction=

Would say so yes. Fire mage and destro lock in top 3 with holy paladin. Even in 2s destro lock is higher second, followed by Havoc.

You can pick and choose your proof as much as you want, but saying melee is a lot stronger than casters these days as the OP is implying is simply false. And don't say that spamming chaos bolt and fearing is hard.

[Segus1992]

https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=3v3&faction=

Would say so yes. Fire mage and destro lock in top 3 with holy paladin. Even in 2s destro lock is higher second, followed by Havoc.

You can pick and choose your proof as much as you want, but saying melee is a lot stronger than casters these days as the OP is implying is simply false. And don't say that spamming chaos bolt and fearing is hard.

Except I was specifically talking about 2s, he countered with "dominated by casters", and I replied with proof that aside from one caster, 2s is absolutely dominated by melee.

Never claimed Destro is hard, Havoc being one of the easiest specs in the game doesn't mean there aren't specs that are comparable.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Damn OP, you really have it out for Demon Hunters don't you? This is like the 5th post you've made trashing Demon Hunters. Perhaps fight fire with fire and roll a DH.

[Doffen]

Except I was specifically talking about 2s, he countered with "dominated by casters", and I replied with proof that aside from one caster, 2s is absolutely dominated by melee.

Never claimed Destro is hard, Havoc being one of the easiest specs in the game doesn't mean there aren't specs that are comparable.

You said "especially in 2s", though you guys obviously talked about the whole thing, especially since the one you quoted didn't talk about "2s spesifically", and I am also indeed talking about the overall picture.

Ending a post in "2s especially" doesn't exclude 3vs3. Fact is that casters are well represented in all brackets, even in 2s as you said, seeing warlocks are above DHs there as well.

[Segus1992]

You said "especially in 2s", though you guys obviously talked about the whole thing, especially since the one you quoted didn't talk about "2s spesifically", and I am also indeed talking about the overall picture.

Ending a post in "2s especially" doesn't exclude 3vs3. Fact is that casters are well represented in all brackets, even in 2s as you said, seeing warlocks are above DHs there as well.

"Caster dominated" =/= "Destro is more common than Havoc". Neither 3s or 2s are caster dominated, whereas 2s is more in the favor of being melee dominated. My argument was that Havoc is easy (it is, very much so), and very strong for its difficulty (again, it is), whereas the guy I quoted is whining because melee (and Havoc in particular) is underpowered while the top rated DPS in 2s is Havoc.

7/10 of the top 10 rated players in 3s are melee (1 healer, 2 casters, 0 warlocks, 1 Havoc). Pretty safe to say melee is doing just fine in PvP and aren't "average at best".

[Doffen]

"Caster dominated" =/= "Destro is more common than Havoc". Neither 3s or 2s are caster dominated, whereas 2s is more in the favor of being melee dominated. My argument was that Havoc is easy (it is, very much so), and very strong for its difficulty (again, it is), whereas the guy I quoted is whining because melee (and Havoc in particular) is underpowered while the top rated DPS in 2s is Havoc.

7/10 of the top 10 rated players in 3s are melee (1 healer, 2 casters, 0 warlocks, 1 Havoc). Pretty safe to say melee is doing just fine in PvP and aren't "average at best".

"Caster dominated" = destro and fire is more common than havoc, heck even two other melee spec is above havoc in 3vs3(somehow I expect you to reply with "but I am just talking about 2vs2)

So yet, in 3vs3 top 10 got 3 casters, 4 melee and 3 healers, top 3 with 2 casters and 1 healer. Pretty safe to say casters are doing fine and melee is not OP as you want it to be. Didn't say melee was average at best either, but sure keep imagining what I say. Your argument falls flat btw when the top caster spec is very close to being as easy as havoc.

https://www.arenamate.net/representation-charts
Look at havoc and compare it to fire and destro. Even shadow got higher representation at 2.2k + rating. I mean the numbers speaks for itself.

Dominating would mean that there would be like 1 caster among top 100 players and maybe 1 caster spec representation among top 10. That couldn't be further from the truth.

[sensei-]

Thank you Doffen for the valiant effort, but it's futile. What we have here is a guy resorting to non-stop straw men and moving the goal posts, talking about 2s, when absolutely nobody except him was ever talking about 2s specifically. Even the author of the thread was talking about PvP in general, as was I. Casters are dominating most of the content that matters, and I even gave melee their due, which is in mythic+.

Segus1992 resorting to statements like 'I said DH is easy to play, which they are' is what keeps me coming to this site. The laughs. How scientific. He makes a statement, and then says it is so because he says it is so. I even asked how he is trying to quantify the 'easiness' of some class. Does he have some kind of measurement tool to the 'easiness' of something, because clearly the success rates of players don't back up his argument. My own personal experience is that among DH players there's absolutely vast differences in performance, just like there are with Mage players or Warlock players. It's impossible for me to quantify the easiness of a class without vast amounts of data and comparisons between medians and knowing how the players do with other classes, so I don't even try. Instead, I assume that in every classes representation there are professional level players, scrubs, and something in between, and what should interest us are the numbers at the top. Even a cursory glance at Warcraftlogs.com gives us the answer for the raiding scene.

So, to keep his nonstop harping about 'noskill DH players' going, in order to pump up himself as clearly better than average but only held back by the class he is playing (oh my god we hear this same laughable excuse from players who don't really play to win in every game) he needs to constantly shift the argument to 2v2. So great, Segus1992, you were fighting with imaginary enemies on this forum about 2v2, when absolutely nobody was in the same conversation with you. Now go away.

[Segus1992]

"Caster dominated" = destro and fire is more common than havoc, heck even two other melee spec is above havoc in 3vs3(somehow I expect you to reply with "but I am just talking about 2vs2)

I see what the problem is that we have different levels of English skills. 'Dominate' means to have power over; majority, and 'caster dominated' implies the scale is tilted in casters' favor, ie casters represent the majority of higher levels of arena. In 3s at 2200+ rating there are 1404 melee specs and 1225 caster specs. In 2s 2200+ there are 2720 melee and 1456 caster specs. Do you understand? Keep in mind, I've never said even 2s was melee dominated, I said it was tilted more in that direction than a caster domination, which is obvious.

So yet, in 3vs3 top 10 got 3 casters, 4 melee and 3 healers, top 3 with 2 casters and 1 healer. Pretty safe to say casters are doing fine and melee is not OP as you want it to be. Didn't say melee was average at best either, but sure keep imagining what I say. Your argument falls flat btw when the top caster spec is very close to being as easy as havoc.

Err, did you look specifically at a specific region's stats to skew the numbers here? Because that's just not true overall. To be fair, EU dominates (the proper usage of the word) the top of the 3s ladder, so let's calculate an average between US and EU: 6/10 melee in global (EU) top 3s, 3/10 in US for an average of 4.5/10. 3/10 casters in global (EU) top 3s, 4/10 in US for an average of 3.5/10. Do you understand?
Never claimed melee was OP either, but I understand that the argument is becoming difficult. "Melee is average at best" was a quote from the other guy, but I guess you can't be expected to keep up with the conversation?
I also never claimed no spec is close to as easy as Havoc, rather the opposite. Are you being obtuse on purpose?

https://www.arenamate.net/representation-charts
Look at havoc and compare it to fire and destro. Even shadow got higher representation at 2.2k + rating. I mean the numbers speaks for itself.

Errr. Is this your argument? That Havoc is underpowered because other specs are better? Well, ok. I never claimed they were the best either, is nuance difficult for you?

Dominating would mean that there would be like 1 caster among top 100 players and maybe 1 caster spec representation among top 10. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Interesting that you would say that, considering the very same post you say "caster dominated" means "destro and fire is more common than havoc".

Thank you Doffen for the valiant effort, but it's futile. What we have here is a guy resorting to non-stop straw men and moving the goal posts, talking about 2s, when absolutely nobody except him was ever talking about 2s specifically. Even the author of the thread was talking about PvP in general, as was I. Casters are dominating most of the content that matters, and I even gave melee their due, which is in mythic+.

Do you even know what a straw man is? It's cute that you're hiding behind big strong Doffen though. Read above regarding domination, if you can understand the complex math.

Segus1992 resorting to statements like 'I said DH is easy to play, which they are' is what keeps me coming to this site. The laughs. How scientific. He makes a statement, and then says it is so because he says it is so. I even asked how he is trying to quantify the 'easiness' of some class. Does he have some kind of measurement tool to the 'easiness' of something, because clearly the success rates of players don't back up his argument. My own personal experience is that among DH players there's absolutely vast differences in performance, just like there are with Mage players or Warlock players. It's impossible for me to quantify the easiness of a class without vast amounts of data and comparisons between medians and knowing how the players do with other classes, so I don't even try. Instead, I assume that in every classes representation there are professional level players, scrubs, and something in between, and what should interest us are the numbers at the top. Even a cursory glance at Warcraftlogs.com gives us the answer for the raiding scene.

I get that you're offended. I'd apologize for offending you, but aside from you becoming defensive because I called your spec easy I don't know what you think I've done. If that's the only reason for you to get so very angry (wow), I'm sorry.

So, to keep his nonstop harping about 'noskill DH players' going, in order to pump up himself as clearly better than average but only held back by the class he is playing (oh my god we hear this same laughable excuse from players who don't really play to win in every game) he needs to constantly shift the argument to 2v2. So great, Segus1992, you were fighting with imaginary enemies on this forum about 2v2, when absolutely nobody was in the same conversation with you. Now go away.

Mm, putting words into my mouth, the classic argumentation style of people who are calm and collected in a discussion. Even if a class is easy, there can still be very skilled players playing the class.

Yeah, I'm aware you were both avoiding 2s because it doesn't work for your argument, but even in 3s (4th top DPS, 2nd top melee), Mythic raiding (8th best DPS (out of 27), 2nd top melee), RBGs (if anyone even cares about those - 2nd top DPS, top melee) - DH is doing more than fine. So what are you whining about exactly, aside from me calling your class easy?