A thing that I don't understand regarding Apple.

[crakerjack]

You're paying a premium for the name. It's also part of the whole popularity bonanza. I remember a girl in one of my classes way back in high school who was crying in class after winter break about how her parents got her a windows laptop instead of the mac book that she really wanted. Kept talking about how she was going to mash it in retaliation.

[RobertMugabe]

You're paying a premium for the name. It's also part of the whole popularity bonanza. I remember a girl in one of my classes way back in high school who was crying in class after winter break about how her parents got her a windows laptop instead of the mac book that she really wanted. Kept talking about how she was going to mash it in retaliation.

Works well for Apple. These type of people are their target audience.

Marketing does wonders.

[lloose]

LOL so no name of software? Is it proprietary? If so, what company designed it? It wasn't done in house, so skip that line.

You wont say what you're working on, no data is available, no mention of ANY software, you have no argument. Here ill do what you're doing too watch:

Ok smartass, they use software from JMP. I told you I work in the beer industry, our scientists are bio focused. They also use a bunch of software that is tied to specific instruments like LC-MS instruments. Thats all you get because I don't need some random on an mmo forum knowing where I work. Again with the data? Its a private company, why in the hell would I give you any data? You want me to walk in one of our labs and be like "yo some guy on the internet wants to see what the company pays you guys to do. Can you toss it on this thumb drive for me?

C'mon.

Edit: How about some bonus content? I work in the US but this is one of our labs based in the UK. These pictures were taken by me. https://imgur.com/a/ edited out

[Bodakane]

Works well for Apple. These type of people are their target audience.

Marketing does wonders.

Can we stop with that shit please.

I went to school for graphic design and all the class computers were Mac. Every design firm I've worked at had Macs. Like it or not, Macs are the standard for certain industries.

I have a mac, because it is what I know and it is what I was trained on. Their operating system makes more sense to me and is easy to use. I don't like their peripherals and never use them.

Acting like I'm idiot because I prefer Mac, when it is the industry standard for my profession says more about you than me.

[lloose]

Can we stop with that shit please.

I went to school for graphic design and all the class computers were Mac. Every design firm I've worked at had Macs. Like it or not, Macs are the standard for certain industries.

I have a mac, because it is what I know and it is what I was trained on. Their operating system makes more sense to me and is easy to use. I don't like their peripherals and never use them.

Acting like I'm idiot because I prefer Mac, when it is the industry standard for my profession says more about you than me.

This.

I love it when people bring up the XDR Monitor and how expensive it is. Saying that people who buy it are stupid. When in reality, for its intended purpose its priced so low that its changing the industry. When it was released, other monitors used in the industry for professional color and editing work cost 6+ times as much. $5000 for a reference monitor vs $30,000 from the entry level reference Sony display or anything in the Flanders Scientific lineup. For loading up wow and playing games on it, its not a good choice at all (unless you have that kind of money to throw around and really want that monitor). For reference work, its an insane value.

[Kagthul]

Dear gawd the people shitposting.

"You're paying more for the name".

Yes, there's some of that. No one ever claimed otherwise. You're also paying for what that name means - better support, better warranty, better OS, more integration, etc.

So, yes, there's an "Apple Tax".

But what it is NOT, any longer, is "you pay SO MUCH MOAR".

Lets do some examples:

MacBook Pro:

16" MBP Core i7 (6c/12th) w/4 Thunderbolt 3 ports (2 Thunderbolt Controllers), 512GB SSD, 16GB of RAM, Color-accurate Retina Display (not quite 4k, but no PC manufacturer uses this resolution, so 4k is about as good as you can get for comparison), Radeon Pro 5300M, weighs 4.2lbs and gets about 8 hours of battery life (Apple likes to say 10, but most testers say between 8-10 depending on what you're doing with anything more than web browsing being on the lower end. (No link, you can head to Apple's site and see it yourself.)

Cost: 2399$

Nearest PC i can find that is even remotely feature-competitive is this Lenovo: https://www.newegg.com/p/1TS-000E-0F...quicklink=true

15", Core i7 (6c/12th), 2 Thunderbolt 3 (1 controller), 512GB SSD, 16GB of RAM, decent (but not as accurate, still good) 4K display, Quadro T2000 (somewhere between the 5300M and 5500M, so marginally more powerful than the MBP), About 6-7 hours of battery life, and weighs 5.5 lbs (a full 1.3lbs more).

Cost: 2518$

Owait.. thats MORE expensive. And heavier. And less battery. Still, close enough for government work.

For just another 150$ over that Lenovo you can kick the MBP up to the 8 core i9, Radeon 5500M, and 1TB SSD.

(Search criteria were: greater than 1080p resolution, 8th 9th or 10th gen i7, 16GB of RAM, 500+GB SSD, Thunderbolt 3 (any), and 15+")

Hmm, lets try an iMac!

The base 27" iMac: 27" 5K color-accurate LG display, 6-core i5 @ 3.0/4.1ghz, 8GB of RAM (.../sigh), Radeon Pro 570X (roughly = vanilla RX 580), 1TB Fusion Drive (128GBSSD/1TB 7200RPM Hyrbid drive, pretty much exclusive to Apple). Keyboard and Mouse. Thunderbolt 3 (one controller), lots of ports. Supports another external 5k Display.

Cost: 1799$

Well, right off, there are no AIO PCs with specs anywhere near this. Zero many. (Well, i think ASUS made one with a full up ITX rig in it, but it was like 3500$)

So, well go with "small-ish PC" + "display", and see what we can come up with. Lets start with the Display:

LG Ultrafine 5K: (this is the exact same panel thats in the iMac) https://www.newegg.com/lg-27md5klb-2...quicklink=true
Cost: 1299$

At this point, i'd even be willing to do the PC the favor of building it yourself - but i cant compile reasonable prices right now. No one has anything in stock. So lets do our best by trying to find MSRPs for the required parts when possible.

For a machine with comparable specs, we have: (Core i5 9500, 16GB of DDR-3000 RAM, 128GB SSD/1TB WDBLUE, Z390 MOBO (only one with Thunderbolt), RX 580... and its, oh yeah, not small or compact at all (a Mid Tower). Good Seasonic PSU (though its only ~10$ more than the mediocre EVGA units below it). I was going to try to do AMD to give the PC at least that advantage, but.. cant. The only AMD motherboard with Thunderbolt 3 is 400$. Or you could add it with a 200$ PCIe card.

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/TwNrsk
Cost: $930.92


Total: 2229$

Wait wait wait... i thought this was supposed to be more expensive? For just 100$ more than that extra 400$, we can kick the iMac to an 8c/16th i9... and a better GPU. And it all sits on my desk with no tower.


Hmmm.... striking out so far. Lets try to replicate a Mini! (This will actually be impossible as there are no mITX boards with Thunderbolt, but well get as close as we can.).

Well use the step-up Mini, as (as i have said in the past, i dont forgive Apple when they make dumbass mistakes) the i3 Mini makes no sense.
Core i5 (6c/t), 8GB of RAM (.../sigh, FFS Apple), 512 SSD, Thunderbolt, HDMI, lots of ports. Fully integrated PSU, WiFi, Bluetooth, et al.

Cost: 1099$

Decently Steep.

Simpy buying a PC off the shelf like the Mini is pretty much impossible (no one is making them or the are like the Skull Canyon NUC and absurdly expensive, being fair to the PCs here, i would not consider the Skull Canyon NUCs to be a Mini competitor.. its an enthusiast playtoy).

So.. build one? Well, you CANT match that form factor. Its just not a thing. You can get -close- though. So, here's the "close" build: i5 9500, 16GB of RAM (+), 512GB SSD, Wifi, bluetooth, et al.. however, lots of stuff missing. But its "close" It should be noted you can upgrade the Mini's RAM in this model, quite easily (just pop the bottom off and pop it out).

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/ZcQpL2
Total: $581.78

Whoa! Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

Except it's still almost 3x the size of the mini (still quite small so id call this a wash), doesn't have Thunderbolt, cant support 5k or higher external displays, cant be upgraded to 10Gb Ethernet (the mini can)...

So lets try a "feature comparable, as small as possible" build...

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/d7T6gJ
Total: $802.67

Still missing some features, but a lot closer. Its also not nearly as small (despite being relatively small for an mITX case the V1 is still about.... eight or nine Mini's stacked on top of each other).

But hey, its a lot cheaper! Things dont look quite so rosy if you spend the extra money to upgrade the Mini to the i7 + 10Gb Ethernet, though, bringing them within ~300$ of each other (if you bring the PC up to the same part)... and the PC CANT have 10Gb Ethernet because its PCIe slot is populated by the Thunderbolt 3 card.

So... you're paying 300$ extra for a machine you can VESA mount to the back of your monitor, vs a (comparatively speaking only) big brick of a computer that isn't even quite feature comparable.

Thats... not a lot.

We already covered the MackBook Air earlier the in the thread (go back and look at my previous post(s)).

Lets tackle the Mac Pro!

The MacPro (base model) is a Xeon W 8core CPU, 32GB of ECC DDR4, a Radeon Pro 580X, 2x 10GbE ports, 2x onboard Thunderbolt 3 ports (each on its own controller), 2x-8x additional Thunderbolt ports on the GPU(s) (and yes, they can be used for storage, the MPX bays have dedicated PCIe bandiwdth for the additional Thunderbolt ports), etc. Its also in a completely custom chasis with tool-less upgradeability, hot swappable drives, hot swappable MPX modules, bespoke cooling, etc. When LTT looked at the case, they estimated that even if a company produced a case like that, it would be 500-800$.

Cost: 5,999$

Its a bit harder to just post PCPartpicker Link for a "build it yourself" workstation like this because in a lot of cases PCP doesn't even have the parts in the database. I will go ahead and say: yes, its cheaper to go AMD. But you cant get all the features (ahem, Thunderbolt) without loading up on Add-in cards, etc. I will admit to believing Apple should be using AMD CPUs in their workstations, but thats because they are probably the only company that has the clout to get a motherboard made that has both TRX/2 socket(s) and Thunderbolt and the other pro features they want. However, they haven't, so we're going to be comparing to a similar build with Intel.

CPU - 1351$
32GB DDR4 ECC - 280$
MOBO - 1900$ - https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E1681314...quicklink=true
SSD - ~200$; there aren't any of the drives that Apple uses (or Samsung Pro drives) in stock anywhere, but thats about what it costs MSRP when they are avail.
PSU - Apple is using a 1400W Platinum PSU; the few units available are in the 450-500$ range.
GPU - Radeon Pro WX 4100 (uses the RX 580 silicon, basically the same as the Radeon Pro 580X) - 250$
Wireless Card - 70$ (this MoBo doesn't have wireless)
Thunderbolt Card - 200$ (doesnt have thunderbolt, doesn't support 6k resolution) x2
Dual 10GbE card - 280$ (And thats the ROSEWILL one ffs)


Cost: 5231$

so... cheaper, sure. But not thousands and thousands cheaper. And it's still missing a bunch of features, some of which (the way the MPX modules work, for instance, adding I/O AND GPUs) aren't replicatable at all...

And i didnt even price a case. (Or, i just realized, a decent cooler!)

Add another ~400$ to that cost for cabling, misc parts, (you need DP passthrough cables for those Thunderbolt cards so they can pass video signals, etc) and case.

Lets add that cooler, case, and parts cost:
Case - 200$
Misc Parts, Fans, etc - 150$
Cooler - 150$ (need special coolers that fit 3647 or a 25$+ mounting kit for DRP4 or NH-D15)

new Total: 5731$.

So... ~300 cheaper and not feature-comparable. And you have to build it yourself. And fix it yourself.

Yeah, man, you're totally getting ripped off.

You pay SO MUCH MOAR.

/sigh.

[Nefarious Tea]

I use both Apple and PC products.

1. PC / Android generally is more customizable and gives you more access to hardware and software features.
2. Apple simply runs FASTER. Its clearly better optimized.

If your top priority is speed, you use Apple.

I can't stand browsing the web on a non-Apple product. It drives me crazy how much slower it can be.

BTW, some websites are Apple exclusives as well. They won't even open on PC or Android.

Yeah Apple products are fast... until the new models come out and they release updates to intentionally and stealthily make last year's products slower in an attempt to try and get people to buy the new one every year.

[lloose]

Yeah Apple products are fast... until the new models come out and they release updates to intentionally and stealthily make last year's products slower in an attempt to try and get people to buy the new one every year.

Source please.

[jellmoo]

Can we stop with that shit please.

I went to school for graphic design and all the class computers were Mac. Every design firm I've worked at had Macs. Like it or not, Macs are the standard for certain industries.

I have a mac, because it is what I know and it is what I was trained on. Their operating system makes more sense to me and is easy to use. I don't like their peripherals and never use them.

Acting like I'm idiot because I prefer Mac, when it is the industry standard for my profession says more about you than me.

I absolutely agree with what you're saying. I've worked in industries where Macs were just used as standard as the software was just better for those tasks. For example, working both in Web Development and VFX, there were situations were Windows machines were at a massive disadvantage, purelely because of software.

But in this case, if we're talking about the Mac Pro, we're talking about a very specific piece of hardware. Any user can benefit from something like a Macbook Air or Pro. They're good machines that allow the user to do what they need, be reliable, and have a very easy to be maintenanced system for people to take advantage of. The Mac Pro, however, is prohibitively expensive for what it offers. If you are looking for the most beastly machine you can buy just cuz, it's a terrible choice. If you're looking to make a beastly gaming machine, it's a terrible choice. Unless you are looking for something super specific that creates both a Mac architecture and extreme amounts of cumputational power, you are almost always better off going another route.

[Jastall]

You're paying for a brand, and the ability to show off to some people. For example, do you ever need to buy a Corvette, or an even fancier supercar like a Lambo or Bugatti? No, there never is going to be a practical need for these products. You buy them to show off, because they go fast while making a satisfying noise, and because it's a friggin Lambo and Lambos are cool, that's it that's all. Sure, in theory you could find the major components of a supercar somewhere else and modify a random Jetta or whatever to perform just as well... but it's still a modified Jetta, not a Lambo.

Plus, as some have said Macs have some practical, even if niche applications. They're not always a waste of money. For the average consumer, I'd definitely say they are quite horribly overpriced- but then again there's tons of other shit I find overpriced, and other shit I buy that some people find far too expensive. In the end, computers beyond their basic functionalities/those needed for your work are for the most part a luxury product, thus the only reasonable price is the one customers are willing to pay. Paying 1700$ for a gaming PC is already well past the point of ridiculous for most people, let alone gamers.

[Kagthul]

The Mac Pro, however, is prohibitively expensive for what it offers.

See above... its ~400$ more than building it yourself, for that bespoke case, bespoke cooling, MPX module compatability, etc.

So.... no, it really isn't, considering even building it yourself you're not saving a lot of money and you're still getting a marginally lesser machine (missing features the Mac Pro has, though nothing "deal breaking" in most cases except for the reduced TB3 capacity).

[Tic Tacs]

1. Brand loyalty - means they can sell to specific target audiences products no matter of the price
2. Platform monopoly - means no competitors, unlike android and window where you can buy LG, Samsung, build your PC
3. Smart marketing - Steve Jobs should go down in history as one the greatest marketers of our time next to Henry Ford, Walt Disney, Ray Kroc and ofcourse Charles Ponzi

All of these would never be possible if not for the great products and services Apple provides even though completely overpriced.

[jellmoo]

See above... its ~400$ more than building it yourself, for that bespoke case, bespoke cooling, MPX module compatability, etc.

So.... no, it really isn't, considering even building it yourself you're not saving a lot of money and you're still getting a marginally lesser machine (missing features the Mac Pro has, though nothing "deal breaking" in most cases except for the reduced TB3 capacity).

Your pricing is off though because you're pricing the components individually. You can acquie a rather large savings by doing bulk purchases. We did the match at the last company I was working at when it came to purchasing a Mac Pro versus a roughly equivalent Linux machine that would be put together by our IT Team/Runners. The savings was $1200 per machine (that's including estimated time needed for builds). It was absolutely not as pretty as a Mac Pro, it was strictly utilitarian.

But again, this was an incredibly niche need. This was to build machines for vfx compositing artists. Running across 40 artists, we were able to find almost $50,000 in savings. That's a pretty big chunk of change.

[Dald]

Because they're a "premium" brand and people will spin their brain in whichever way possible to justify paying for overpriced shit. See poster on page 2. "Bespoke" cooling lolol, custom case..? They're literally the same for everyone that buys them. Custom, eh?

[schwarzkopf]

I understand that somehow the MacOS is better in many ways,

You have that the wrong way around - MACOS is inferior in most ways, but the hardware is WAY better than what you specced.

You need to compare like with like - and when you do that the Apple is pretty much the same as a similarly specced PC.

The XEON processors are very high end processors, and the motherboard and design to cater for a 28 core 4.4GHz processor with up to 1.5TB of RAM - that's not your normal corner store variety machine.

[Kagthul]

Because they're a "premium" brand and people will spin their brain in whichever way possible to justify paying for overpriced shit. See poster on page 2. "Bespoke" cooling lolol, custom case..? They're literally the same for everyone that buys them. Custom, eh?

Yeah. As in, its not an off-the-shelf, mass-produced 30$ CoolerMaster cooler that is made by the millions. Its a custom one-off for Apple that is made in small quantities.

That means it costs more.

Herp derp a derp derp.

Also, I debunked your shit about "it costs so much more". Like 4 posts up.

You save a whopping 400$ building it yourself, get a shittier case, less IO, worse cooling, and lower quality parts, and missing features.

Its almost like ignorant dipshits will invent things out of whole cloth to try to be right.

- - - Updated - - -

Your pricing is off though because you're pricing the components individually. You can acquie a rather large savings by doing bulk purchases. We did the match at the last company I was working at when it came to purchasing a Mac Pro versus a roughly equivalent Linux machine that would be put together by our IT Team/Runners. The savings was $1200 per machine (that's including estimated time needed for builds). It was absolutely not as pretty as a Mac Pro, it was strictly utilitarian.

But again, this was an incredibly niche need. This was to build machines for vfx compositing artists. Running across 40 artists, we were able to find almost $50,000 in savings. That's a pretty big chunk of change.

Uhh... no?

You can also get a bulk discount when you order from Apple.

This is comparing like-to-like (i wont use "apples to apples" here). A consumer (single) buying a single rig.

I assure you, when ESPN re-rigged all their mobile trucks with Mac Pros, they did not pay the retail price.

When U of M put together a 400-MacPro supercomputer for medical and scientific work, they did not pay the retail price.

Etc.

If you're ordering that many machines, you have a rep at Apple that you know on a first name basis. You dont pay retail.

I'd also be willing to bet that they aren't -actually- feature comparable. Now, you may not have needed those features, and thats fair enough, but you cant be like "well this machine we made that isn't actually comparable costs less". You're also supporting them yourself. If you'd purchased through Apple (in a bulk order like that, the service contract would not be a huge extra amount of money) theyd fix anything that broke or simply ship you a new machine. Thats worth a decent bit of coin.

- - - Updated - - -

even though completely overpriced.

Same price or cheaper on every category except the Mini. See above. And thats a wird comparison because there really aren't PC makers making anything like the Mini and to get a feature-comparable machine you actually spend pretty close to the same (within 300$) and the machine is MUCH bigger and less versatile (doesn't have both TB3 and 10GbE, choose one only).

So.. wut?

Edit:

Again, i want to be clear here. Im NOT saying Apple products are for everyone.

They are not. People posting on these forums, by and large, are not the target audiences for Apple products.

Almost no one here is super-casual and just wants a daily driver that works without a hassle and doesn't want to think about it (MacBook Air, Mac Mini, iMac).

Almost no one here is a Pro working in a competitive environment where shaving even 20 minutes off of each job you do can save you the cost of the computer in a month. (Mac Pro)

Almost no one here is a Pro working in the movie or TV industries, where almost all work is done on Final Cut. (Mac Pro, iMac Pro)

Almost no one here is an audio Pro working in a major recording studio. Or even a small-scale pro studio. (iMac Pro, Macbook Pro)

Almost no on here works in or supports places that need the accuracy of ECC RAM, Pro-level, signed, error-checking drivers.

But that doesn't mean those people dont exist.

And it doesn't mean that Apple products aren't compelling in those scenarios, or, in a lot of cases, the industry standard, or in some (rare) cases, the ONLY devices that can be used for that (due to some of Apple's proprietary software) without a shitload of janky workarounds.

Hell, i dont even need the Mac i use (i dont do any serious creative work anymore, haven't since i was in my 20s), really (a MacBook Pro 2014 w/i7). I could get by on an Air for my daily driving. But since i buy used, i can afford to use "better" machines than i need (i only paid 300 for the MBP because the screen is damaged, but since i solely used it docked, it didnt matter).

And, as i pointed out above...

The Apple Tax is still a thing, but it is NOT this overwhelming "you pay SO MUCH MOAR" bullshit. Not when you're actually comparing it to a spec-equivalent competitor.

If you're comparing a 4lb MacBook Pro with a near-4k color accurate display, quad thunderbolt, and 8 hours of battery to a 6.5lbs half-plastic brick with a mediocre low-end 1080p IPS display... then you're being dishonest and effectively trying to move the goalposts to be right.

[jellmoo]

Uhh... no?

You can also get a bulk discount when you order from Apple.

This is comparing like-to-like (i wont use "apples to apples" here). A consumer (single) buying a single rig.

I assure you, when ESPN re-rigged all their mobile trucks with Mac Pros, they did not pay the retail price.

When U of M put together a 400-MacPro supercomputer for medical and scientific work, they did not pay the retail price.

Etc.

If you're ordering that many machines, you have a rep at Apple that you know on a first name basis. You dont pay retail.

You misunderstand, that was *with* the business discount for purchasing multiple units. It's entirely possible that Apple would have increased the discount had we been purchasing more than 40 units, but at that amount, we were able to save $1200 per machine.

[lloose]

If we are talking about the Mac Pro, don't forget the driver and hardware certification. The driver support having near 100% compatibility and stability with certain software comes at a huge premium. You can't say its all Apple with that too, Nvidia/AMD has been doing it since the beginning of the Quadro and Fire Pro days. Theres a reason that GTX 1650 with a Quadro sticker on it costs 4x as much as the regular gtx 1650

[Selastan]

If you think a mac is a good option for you, that's fine. But you have to weigh that against both the cons of the cost and social ridicule of using a mac.

[Nefarious Tea]

Source please.

Behold thou wastrel, for I back up my claim:

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...ng-down-phones