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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i mean you are the one saying he isn't, just because one instance, regardless of him being a coward before
    It wasn't just 'one instance'. And Baine, as explained, is not a coward. A coward doesn't rebel against their leaders. Or even openly question them.

    you literally think he not being a total coward in one instance means he never was in his lifetime what is pretty delusional
    Because I know what "coward" means, and Baine simply does not fit the description.

    and by that logic, Baine is a coward, since he did commit acts of cowardice,
    No, he didn't. Going behind someone's back, when said someone could easily kill you anytime they wanted, is not a sign of cowardice. It's risking your life, and a coward doesn't risk his life. Period. By risking his life, even by going behind Sylvanas' back, proves Baine is not a coward.

    knowing he is buddy buddy in Anduin, he facing off sylvanas would not cause more casualties, and in the end, casualties happened anyway because of him not acting soon by being a coward
    Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Baine is, indeed, "buddy buddy" with Anduin (which he is not, btw), it doesn't mean anything because Anduin was not there. You're ludicrously trying to create so many "safety nets" for Baine, and then acting as if Baine was not only aware of those "safety nets", but also counting on them to save his hide, when that was never shown to be the case. Baine didn't say "I knew you guys would rescue me" when we come for him.

    you are telling me he should not know about the DArkshore things when tropps are going there and back all the time, a open warfront, but he should not about koltiras when he was completelly secured with not even us as readers knew about his destiny?
    You tell me. You're the one assuming Baine knows things he has no way of knowing if he truly is this "coward" you're trying to paint him to be. So why can you do that, but not me?

    but you are praising Baine cowardice and blatantly treason against his warchief to help the alliance, but we can't exalt the taurujo survivors in their rightful right of retribution and when they were defending mulgore from the alliance attacks

    Someone here is wrong.
    It would be you, since I'm not defending Baine for helping the Alliance, as you claim I am. I'm defending Baine because he stood up for what he believes in: peace, and the honor of the Horde, against a warchief that was tearing the Horde from the inside with her insidious plans.
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  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Just because they gave names to the different factions doesn't make them different people. Man'ari = corrupted Eredar; Draenei = uncorrupted Eredar. they are the same people. And you don't hold the Draenei responsible for what the Man'ari did, but you hold the non-corrupted Orcs responsible for what the corrupted Orcs and Man'ari did.
    So, by this logic, German Jews that fled to America after the rise of the Third Reich should have also been tried at the Nuremberg Trials? Is this how it works for you?

    You seem to really try to be pushing this topic to address some anti-Orcish strawman. How about you just address the facts as they are instead. I haven't made any claims about Orcs, yet it is the entire foundation of your argument.

  3. #223
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Let's pivot away from the use of real-world history and politics in the discussion and focus instead on the subject of the thread.
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  4. #224
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It wasn't just 'one instance'. And Baine, as explained, is not a coward. A coward doesn't rebel against their leaders. Or even openly question them.
    A coward would wait until everyone was already rebeled, so he could join, just like he did

    Because I know what "coward" means, and Baine simply does not fit the description.
    that could be very well because your own distort logic and whitewashing him, agree to disagree

    Going behind someone's back, when said someone could easily kill you anytime they wanted, is not a sign of cowardice
    wush, then ther eis no problem in Garrosh sending sneak assassins to kill vol'jin? oh my how the tables have turned

    Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Baine is, indeed, "buddy buddy" with Anduin (which he is not, btw)
    is he not? dude send a peice of his own horn and was tradding letter with him, and they are not?

    ok, will not even address the rest, its clearly what you are trying to do here

    You tell me. You're the one assuming Baine knows things he has no way of knowing
    How there was no way of Baine knowing about the warfront in darkshore where sylvanas was raising the night elves to serve her?

    every one fucking knew it LOL
    It would be you, since I'm not defending Baine for helping the Alliance, as you claim I am. I'm defending Baine because he stood up for what he believes in: peace, and the honor of the Horde, against a warchief that was tearing the Horde from the inside with her insidious plans.
    and he "stood" too late, for the wrong reasons

    acted too late because he is a coward and acted for the wrong reasons just because it was jaina brother in play

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Carnagefiend View Post
    So, by this logic, German Jews that fled to America after the rise of the Third Reich should have also been tried at the Nuremberg Trials? Is this how it works for you?

    You seem to really try to be pushing this topic to address some anti-Orcish strawman. How about you just address the facts as they are instead. I haven't made any claims about Orcs, yet it is the entire foundation of your argument.
    No, I'm on the other side of the argument. I'm showing how ridiculous it is to hold hatred toward an entire race for what some bad ones did. Somehow the alliance, especially the Draenei, think this should only apply to the Orcs even though their own races have done worse things. But they will always hearken back to once upon a time when the Eredar tricked the Orcs into attacking the other Eredar. No other race is condemned for what the bad members of their race did, but if you are Alliance, you still condemn the entire race of Orcs.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupinemancer View Post
    Taurens make sense, but why would the Draenei stay neutral after most of their people were needlessly slaughtered by orcs?

    Orcs didn't invade the draenei planet. But they did bring death in their wake, that is true.
    Maybe because the people in charge (Velen) actually understand the truth, and find it hard to force their entire faction into blaming the other side for something THEY were responsible for in the first place?

    Sure, the Orcs were responsible for a lot of very bad shit being done against the Draenei, but who is responsible for the Orcs being targeted and used as puppets by the legion to begin with? Remember, the Draenei are ultimately responsible for everything that happened to the Orcs because they decided to flee to Dranor and hide out there, which eventually ended up bringing the legion down on all of them. They willingly (and in Velen's case, likely KNOWINGLY) exposed an entire innocent civilization to what turned out to be cataclysmic peril because they chose an already occupied world as their bolt hole.
    Last edited by Surfd; 2020-06-01 at 06:07 AM.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Maybe because the people in charge (Velen) actually understand the truth, and find it hard to force their entire faction into blaming the other side for something THEY were responsible for in the first place?

    Sure, the Orcs were responsible for a lot of very bad shit being done against the Draenei, but who is responsible for the Orcs being targeted and used as puppets by the legion to begin with? Remember, the Draenei are ultimately responsible for everything that happened to the Orcs because they decided to flee to Dranor and hide out there, which eventually ended up bringing the legion down on all of them. They willingly (and in Velen's case, likely KNOWINGLY) exposed an entire innocent civilization to what turned out to be cataclysmic peril because they chose an already occupied world as their bolt hole.
    Oh my heart bleeds for those poor innocent Orcs. Lemme think back, what was it exactly that the uncorrupted Orcs did when they declined to fight for the Legion? Oh yes, I remember now, they genocided and enslaved the Draenei anyway and were ready to roll over Azeroth to murder everyone there too. Their culture (using that term loosely) is based on warfare, their leader is called "Warchief" for gods sake. "Innocent Civilisation" my ass.

    Besides, the constant victim blaming in this forum is sickening. You Horde apologists really have no line you won't cross. Do you regularly blame refugees for not staying at home to be slaughtered like animals?

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    A coward would wait until everyone was already rebeled, so he could join, just like he did
    Are you kidding me? No one else was rebelling when Baine did. As far as he knew, he was the only one working against Sylvanas. Everyone else was doing her bidding.

    that could be very well because your own distort logic and whitewashing him, agree to disagree
    You call what I write "distorted logic", yet you call Baine a coward for 'only rebelling after others did' when he was the only one actually rebelling.

    wush, then ther eis no problem in Garrosh sending sneak assassins to kill vol'jin? oh my how the tables have turned
    Apples and stones.

    You "turned" someone else's table. These are completely different situations. The Garrosh attacking vol'jin was a discussion about honor, not cowardice. And Garrosh was the leader, the most powerful of the two.

    ok, will not even address the rest, its clearly what you are trying to do here
    You won't, because you can't.

    How there was no way of Baine knowing about the warfront in darkshore where sylvanas was raising the night elves to serve her?

    every one fucking knew it LOL
    I'm talking about your insistence that Baine knew that openly questioning the warchief would not cause him any issues. That is what I'm talking about when I say "things Baine would have no way of knowing if he was the coward you're trying to paint him as".

    and he "stood" too late, for the wrong reasons
    "Too late" or "too early" is not only arguable, but also irrelevant. And "wrong reasons"? That's pretty much inarguable that you're wrong. He did it for the Horde, for the honor of the Horde, to preserve the ideals of the Horde he joined.

    acted for the wrong reasons just because it was jaina brother in play
    Again, you're wrong. It wasn't because it was "Jaina's brother". But, once again, because Sylvanas planned to sully the honor of the Horde even more by not only using dishonorable tactics, but also by violating one of the cornerstone pillars of the Forsaken: free will.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    No, I'm on the other side of the argument. I'm showing how ridiculous it is to hold hatred toward an entire race for what some bad ones did. Somehow the alliance, especially the Draenei, think this should only apply to the Orcs even though their own races have done worse things. But they will always hearken back to once upon a time when the Eredar tricked the Orcs into attacking the other Eredar. No other race is condemned for what the bad members of their race did, but if you are Alliance, you still condemn the entire race of Orcs.
    The problem, here, is that the comparison between the draenei and the orcs fail. The eredar that tricked the orcs, the man'ari, are not the same group of eredar, the draenei, that got attacked by the orcs.

    But the orcs within Orgrimmar? They are mostly the same orcs that invaded Azeroth through the Dark Portal and painted a red path through Stormwind and other human lands. And then we have Garrosh who seemed all too eager to rekindle those "bad memories" within the Alliance.
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  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post

    Orcs don't live much in a time of war, there isn't much orcs above 45 indeed, and mind you, thrall also got corrupted, he just didn't get the blood frenzy

    i didn't said 45 is retirement, im saying they died, literally, if not in the war they died after mannoroth died, Saurfang by example saw dozens of then died when they saw their memories, he helped some, but warriors of the past are rare

    they reproduced in the camps, they were so populous that blackmore wanted to use then to conquer the alliance

    i mean, generally the alliance have plenty of reasons to hate orcs, i was just saying the ones who did things with humans are mostly dead, they will keep hating each other for their fathers and later for their fathers before then, its what i expect in a game about war.
    I meant more like, the ones that went with Thrall back in WC3 weren't that many in the grand scheme of things - enough to fit into the ships they stole from the alliance - and then they lost a lot more to the Chaos Well incident and the rest of the war. The number of orcs we have today doesn't really mesh with that history too much, simply because Blizz decided that there should be more orcs. They do that to all kinds of races, really, since the lore is made to fit the gameplay they desire, not the other way around. That's why it is usually kind of pointless to debate points of logic for anything not explicitly stated, really. Not in the sense that we shouldn't discuss it, but rather because logic doesn't dictate plot a lot of the time. We could discuss the average age of the orc population here all day, with solid points on either side, but we won't really reach any concise point anyway. Blizz could come up tomorrow saying that every single orc from those days is dead and gone now. Or they could say that a majority of orcs alive today were actively corrupted, instead of having the green skin passed down. And we would just have to swallow either, haha.

    Though, most likely, they don't care either way and will continue to ascribe hate in characters, and whether it may be justified or not, in any way they want for the sake of the story they want to tell.

    But yeah, realistically, these cycles of hatred will just continue on. All I really wanted to say originally, is that these cycles also need certain factors to really develop. Orcs and Humans had decades of war and strained relationship between their races to build up the resentment, but that isn't the case with the other options I originally replied to. Highborn, Highelves, Humans due to Arthas just don't have that history, even lacking the "us vs them" mentality, since it was always more like "us vs that individual and those who follow them". Eredar - Draenei stuff is closest in some ways, but just too disconnected imho, due to the Draenei looking distinctly different, Eredar as a race not really being too prominent during the legion invasion, etc. Plus, there isn't really a cycle of hatred to be followed there to begin with. The alliance didn't really hurt the Draenei, and was instead met with peace and assistance. That just makes it harder to create said cycle, unlike with the Orcs were there are legitimate, painful grievances on both sides.

  10. #230
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Are you kidding me? No one else was rebelling when Baine did. As far as he knew, he was the only one working against Sylvanas. Everyone else was doing her bidding.
    Saurfang was already rebeling, Zekhan, the kid troll stand against Sylvanas and her Dark rangers first LOL

    Baine also wait everyone be against Garrosh, and wait to be kicked out by him

    You call what I write "distorted logic", yet you call Baine a coward for 'only rebelling after others did' when he was the only one actually rebelling.
    "rebel" by freeing jaina brother, adn accepting his fate, waow
    Apples and stones.
    Now that is against your lofic, of course is different isn't?
    You "turned" someone else's table. These are completely different situations. The Garrosh attacking vol'jin was a discussion about honor, not cowardice. And Garrosh was the leader, the most powerful of the two.
    Honor and cowardice walk together, and you don't know if Garrosh was most powerful, vol'jin was a shadow hunter, controlling dark magic


    You won't, because you can't.
    whatever you say
    I'm talking about your insistence that Baine knew that openly questioning the warchief would not cause him any issues. That is what I'm talking about when I say "things Baine would have no way of knowing if he was the coward you're trying to paint him as".
    Because he keep doing with no consequences whatsoever as long he keep doing what they said, pretty simple

    "Too late" or "too early" is not only arguable, but also irrelevant.
    It is, and it is relevant, since is thewhole point of the problem, we saw worse shit and did shit about it, because he was a coward until he wasn't

    Blame blizzard terrible writing, but is the truth
    And "wrong reasons"? That's pretty much inarguable that you're wrong. He did it for the Horde, for the honor of the Horde, to preserve the ideals of the Horde he joined.
    He did for Jaina brother, thats it, he could have done his blind eye, like he did other times before, but no, "now is for the horde"

    "kill members of the horde, for the alliance character"

    such for the horde move


    Again, you're wrong. It wasn't because it was "Jaina's brother".
    it was literally because of that, any other he would do like he did before, nothing
    But, once again, because Sylvanas planned to sully the honor of the Horde even more by not only using dishonorable tactics, but also by violating one of the cornerstone pillars of the Forsaken: free will.
    And she already have done before, and worse, but now? not cool, i wonder why

    But the orcs within Orgrimmar? They are mostly the same orcs that invaded Azeroth through the Dark Portal and painted a red path through Stormwind and other human lands. And then we have Garrosh who seemed all too eager to rekindle those "bad memories" within the Alliance.
    it is already stated that most of the orcs of orgrimmar are not the same orcs, but born here and in the camps

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Saurfang was already rebeling, Zekhan, the kid troll stand against Sylvanas and her Dark rangers first LOL
    Alright. So you're assuming something that Baine has no way of knowing because Saurfang's freedom was not made public? You berate me for "assuming things Baine knows", but now you go and do the same thing, again.

    Baine also wait everyone be against Garrosh, and wait to be kicked out by him
    If you read Tides of War, you'll see that Baine was questioning Garrosh long before Theramore.

    "rebel" by freeing jaina brother, adn accepting his fate, waow
    Distorted logic, indeed. You're letting your bias against Baine to cloud your understanding of the facts.

    Honor and cowardice walk together, and you don't know if Garrosh was most powerful, vol'jin was a shadow hunter, controlling dark magic
    No, they don't necessarily walk together.

    Because he keep doing with no consequences whatsoever as long he keep doing what they said, pretty simple
    I'll repeat, once again: you're assuming Baine has knowledge of something he would have no way of knowing if he was such a coward you think he is, because such a coward would never question their warchief, even once, to find out if it's safe or not to openly question them.

    He did for Jaina brother, thats it,
    You're wrong. He did it to prevent the Horde from plummeting deeper into the pit that Sylvanas was forcing them into.

    it was literally because of that, any other he would do like he did before, nothing
    Read the definition of "the straw that broke the camel's back", please.

    it is already stated that most of the orcs of orgrimmar are not the same orcs, but born here and in the camps
    Where is it stated?
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  12. #232
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Alright. So you're assuming something that Baine has no way of knowing because Saurfang's freedom was not made public? You berate me for "assuming things Baine knows", but now you go and do the same thing, again.
    you don't even know what you are arguing anymore right?

    If you read Tides of War, you'll see that Baine was questioning Garrosh long before Theramore.
    questioning and doing nothing means shit, hell is full of people with good intentions and with people who only say don't act
    Distorted logic, indeed. You're letting your bias against Baine to cloud your understanding of the facts.
    on the contrary, your bias as alliance is clouding your judgement, of course Baine, a peacemonger, a coward who kill horde to save alliance and commit treason for the good of the alliance would be the perfect leader of the horde in your eyes
    No, they don't necessarily walk together.
    they do often

    I'll repeat, once again: you're assuming Baine has knowledge of something he would have no way of knowing

    You are assuming he have no way of knowing, you are assuming he is an idiot not the leader of an entire race with the minimum of intelligence


    if he was such a coward you think he is, because such a coward would never question their warchief, even once, to find out if it's safe or not to openly question them.
    Cowards question and don't act
    You're wrong. He did it to prevent the Horde from plummeting deeper into the pit that Sylvanas was forcing them into.
    wush i guess getting a bucked of water out of the titanic sure would prevent it of sinking, what a great logic

    Read the definition of "the straw that broke the camel's back", please.
    no, not rly, things worse he did shit, the straw was because it was jaina brother and she was aiming to kill jaina


    Where is it stated?
    in the canon, think its the recent chronicles, but there is other sources about most orcs of orgrimmar and in general being born in azeroth already

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you don't even know what you are arguing anymore right?
    What I'm arguing for has not changed.

    questioning and doing nothing means shit, hell is full of people with good intentions and with people who only say don't act
    And a coward wouldn't even question, in fear of reprisal. And before you say anything about Baine somehow knowing he wouldn't be punished, a coward would never question his superiors, which is why Baine, if he truly was this coward you accuse him of, wouldn't have knowledge that questioning someone wouldn't land him in trouble, because he would never have questioned Garrosh or Sylvanas.

    on the contrary, your bias as alliance is clouding your judgement,
    How can I have a "bias for the Alliance" if it has been quoted here a post of mine wanting the Alliance to be the bad guys and lose a war for once!?

    You are assuming he have no way of knowing, you are assuming he is an idiot not the leader of an entire race with the minimum of intelligence
    You're the one accusing him of being a coward. If he truly was a coward, he would never, ever question the warchief, in fear of reprisal, hence how there was no way he could have known that questioning the warchief is ok and wouldn't give him trouble. That's the whole thing of being a coward: being easily frightened.

    Cowards question and don't act
    Cowards don't even question. That's the whole thing of being a coward.

    wush i guess getting a bucked of water out of the titanic sure would prevent it of sinking, what a great logic
    No, but adding one more bucket into the Titanic would surely cause it so sink if it was already at its weight limit. You're demonstrating an incredible lack of logic skills. You know there is such a thing as a "point of no return", right?

    in the canon, think its the recent chronicles, but there is other sources about most orcs of orgrimmar and in general being born in azeroth already
    And what are those sources? Can you quote?
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  14. #234
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And a coward wouldn't even question, in fear of reprisal.
    there is an entire spectrum of cowardice, you are trying to work here in binary, thinking because he did one thing, literally erase everything else, and is where your logic fail, there is tons of people who are cowards on the internet and talk a lot of shit, knowing the internet is hard to get then, there is ton of cowards in power who talk what they want and they would not talk if not by that

    cowards also don't act in fear of reprisal, is what Baine did, simple as that,

    Since we already detect your problem of why you see things in binary, either 8 or 80, we can safe ignore the entirety of your post.

    And what are those sources? Can you quote?
    like i said the chronicles, don't have page, the other sources i don't remember, i remember Koak story talking about He also being born in the camps, pretty sure there is quests about it, we have to put a pin in there.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-06-02 at 04:05 AM.

  15. #235
    The Patient Motso's Avatar
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    Syegfryed it seems like you are conflating coward and traitor a bit in your assessment of Baine. And I get the definite sense that you are essentially using coward to mean wimpy, and Ielenia is using it to mean dishonorable (more or less) and so you guys are never going to come to a conclusion.

  16. #236
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motso View Post
    Syegfryed it seems like you are conflating coward and traitor a bit in your assessment of Baine. And I get the definite sense that you are essentially using coward to mean wimpy, and Ielenia is using it to mean dishonorable (more or less) and so you guys are never going to come to a conclusion.
    i think he is both actually, he indeed commit treason before, warning theramore of the Horde attack and didn't act many times before against both Garrosh and Sylvanas in fear, he thinks that just because Baine badmouth then one time he is cleaned from his cowardice

    I don't even consider him going against sylvanas treason btw, cause i don't even consider her a legitimate warchief.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-06-02 at 10:19 AM.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i think he is both actually, he indeed commit treason before, warning theramore of the Horde attack and didn't act many times before against both Garrosh and Baine in fear, he thinks that just because Baine badmouth then one time he is cleaned from his cowardice

    I don't even consider him going against sylvanas treason btw, cause i don't even consider her a legitimate warchief.
    Yeah honestly its a fair cop for the most part. Its pretty interesting because I think you are both right coming from the angles you are, because you are coming at it from fundamentally different interpretations of of cowardice.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It wasn't just 'one instance'. And Baine, as explained, is not a coward. A coward doesn't rebel against their leaders. Or even openly question them.


    Because I know what "coward" means, and Baine simply does not fit the description.


    No, he didn't. Going behind someone's back, when said someone could easily kill you anytime they wanted, is not a sign of cowardice. It's risking your life, and a coward doesn't risk his life. Period. By risking his life, even by going behind Sylvanas' back, proves Baine is not a coward.


    Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Baine is, indeed, "buddy buddy" with Anduin (which he is not, btw), it doesn't mean anything because Anduin was not there. You're ludicrously trying to create so many "safety nets" for Baine, and then acting as if Baine was not only aware of those "safety nets", but also counting on them to save his hide, when that was never shown to be the case. Baine didn't say "I knew you guys would rescue me" when we come for him.


    You tell me. You're the one assuming Baine knows things he has no way of knowing if he truly is this "coward" you're trying to paint him to be. So why can you do that, but not me?


    It would be you, since I'm not defending Baine for helping the Alliance, as you claim I am. I'm defending Baine because he stood up for what he believes in: peace, and the honor of the Horde, against a warchief that was tearing the Horde from the inside with her insidious plans.
    The Draenei aren't Neutral because the orcs decimated their population, completely sacking Shat'trah and slaughtering thousands, only for Kael'thas's blood elves to assault them aboard their interdimensional ships, ultimately stealing Tempest Keep, the Botanica, the Mechanar, and the Alcatraz.

    The Tauren aren't Neutral because the Alliance marched out of Dustwallow Marsh just before the events of Cataclysm and raised Camp Taujaro, slaying most of the people there and forcing all of the surviving residents of the peaceful outpost to flee into Quilboar territory where they were murdered.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post

    If you look at the above you'll notice that what you're talking about, and what I'm talking about, don't appear to be the same thing at all.
    It's what I've always thought of as the major issue in the difference between the novellas and the in game event. I scoffed at the slight diffrences comment entirely because this difference exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    A shift in the tail-end of the sequence doesn't really change anything of note, either.
    I disagree because this shift would indicate different motives in the the actions seen.

    In one we have a ruined planned hastily salvaged in the other we have a weird over the top villaintrope. This is not an insignificant detail, this is like "gloves don't fit" bullshit. The story is just rife with a hodgepodge of bullshit where we're expected to just ignore details so the intended 'villain' just remains the only reason for anything to have happened. Why did Teldrassil turn to ashes? Solely and entirely because Sylvanas sullied the honor of the horde! And this is the only way the story ever elaborates on it from then on.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    It's what I've always thought of as the major issue in the difference between the novellas and the in game event. I scoffed at the slight diffrences comment entirely because this difference exists.
    What are the real differences, though? The burning of Teldrassil in-game is basically told by a replaying of Sylvanas' "Warbringers" cinematic, which features her conversation with Delayrn, a brief recap of her death at Arthas' hands, and the destruction of Teldrassil by artillery fire. The only salient thing missing from the in-game sequence is Saurfang's reaction in the interim, which basically changes nothing - he has an outburst and is immediately cowed into inaction, that's basically it. And since that event is itself implied in the "Old Soldier" cinematic and the events of the Battle of Lordaeron, it still counts as having been recounted in-game, even if the sequence is a bit different from the novella.

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I disagree because this shift would indicate different motives in the the actions seen.

    In one we have a ruined planned hastily salvaged in the other we have a weird over the top villaintrope. This is not an insignificant detail, this is like "gloves don't fit" bullshit. The story is just rife with a hodgepodge of bullshit where we're expected to just ignore details so the intended 'villain' just remains the only reason for anything to have happened. Why did Teldrassil turn to ashes? Solely and entirely because Sylvanas sullied the honor of the horde! And this is the only way the story ever elaborates on it from then on.
    Be we know now that the "weird over the top villain trope" was always intended, making your take on the events wrong on two counts. Teldrassil burned to ash because Sylvanas wanted death all along, and her rationale to Saurfang was (and always had been) a pack of lies sold to him and the greater Horde to pitch them headlong into an unending war. "A Good War" even foreshadows this a bit, with Sylvanas intimating that she had greater plans, plans of a nature so stark that she expected and factored in the intervention of Elune herself. The revelations of 8.2.5 and 8.3 simply show that you were originally mistaken in your take on the in-game events concerning the War of Thorns. If you believed Sylvanas ever meant good by the Horde, then you were simply wrong about her role in the story.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

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