Why aren't Tauren and Draenei just Neutral?

[Kiri]

The good news is that you aren't alone. The entire alliance hates all Orcs for what corrupted Orcs did, while having no problem with the Draenei even though the Eredar have done worse.

Corrupted Orcs: Tried to expand and conquered those in their way. Didn't make it far, were defeated, ended up settling in a wasteland. Then one destroyed an island, was defeated again, then tracked down and killed by an Orc. All Orcs bad!
Corrupted Eredar: Travel the cosmos enslaving entire planet after planet, attempted to destroy Azeroth (multiple times). Still going strong, regardless of the fact that they've been defeated. Eredar are good though.
Corrupted Human: Caused a blight over the entire northern tier of the continent. Went north and found another continent, caused a blight that covers much of it. The blight and the scourge remain to this day. Humans are good though.
Corrupted Night Elf: Actions led to the sundering, destroying nearly 80% of Azeroth's land mass. Night Elves are good though.
Corrupted High Elf: Constantly trying to genocide other races. Burnt down Teldrassil. Destroying everyone in her path, still at large. High Elves are good though.

So Eredar, Humans, Night Elves, High Elves, they are still cool. BUT WE FOREVER HATE THE ORCS! The group that got tricked by one of the groups you say is good, and caused the least amount of damage compared to what the others have done, but yeah, the non-corrupted Orcs - ones who did not commit those atrocities...they are the bad ones.

To be honest, this equivalency does not really hold up too well.
The Draenei are, per definition, those who rejected the ways of the Eredar and are victims of the same group. They were the same race originally, yes, but they are distinctly different people. If a human meets a random Draenei, he is guaranteed that said Draenei is not an the same person who, as an Eredar, caused his people harm/grief.
The orcs are much trickier. The vast majority of Orcs drank the blood and became corrupted, only to later lose that corruption. They are the same people, just in a different state of mind. If a human meets a random Orc, she is very likely that said Orc is the same person who has caused her people harm/grief.

That is at the core of the issue, especially with those other examples. Most of the time, those who are corrupted stay corrupted and thus hatable, but they don't represent the majority of a race. Arthas does not represent all humans, Sylvannas not all high elves/undead. That makes it easy to not extrapolate from them to the whole race, since our brains allow us to recognize them as exceptional individuals more easily. The Draenei come closest, but they have the advantage of being of a different phenotype, and the alliance specifically knowing that those are the ones who refused.
However, the orcs make it really hard for the human (as in our human brain, presumably shared by most sentient races on Azeroth) to make that distinction. In the majority of cases, a given, specific orc was part of the invasion, was part of the horde that came, murdered, pillaged. Knowing somewhere that they at least claim to have only done so because they were corrupted, is much harder to process. Which isn't even getting into the at least somewhat reasonable distrust that people would have in that explanation in the first place. Remember, these are characters in the story. They aren't like us, who have the word of god that the orcs only did what they did because of corruption. To them, it is just what the Orcs claim, despite still being inherently focused on war and not exactly reluctant to go kill others when their warchief commands. The past few years, in universe, have not done much to quell that doubt.

And even if it could be quelled, a person's brain is not well-wired to truly understand such a concept. Just imagine for yourself that some army unit from a country came into your town and started killing civilians, people you know, maybe you even care about. After they are is caught and imprisoned, they are released since they were mind controlled or something and released back into society. Would you, when looking at a soldier from that unit, be able to disregard the image of the murderer from that of the man in front of you? If you can, congratulations, you would be in a very small minority. Most people can't.
That is pretty much what happened in WoW, in a way. There are some who can fully internalize the effects of corruption on others and act accordingly. There are many more who just can't. And heck, you can even find alliance members who distrust Draenei for looking like Eredar, Night Elves for what happened in the past, etc. It's a very personal thing, but it is much easier when the issue can be focused on one singular person who caused it, harder when the majority of a race is still the same people who hurt yours. Treating all these cases the same is just....overly reductive, in my opinion.

[Syegfryed]

A different that seems to amount to basically nothing. What one would call a decided non-factor.

Still shows that he only omit things when there is completely relevance to his own plans, confirm what anyone think about sylvanas? he would do normally, especially with his own trusted orcs, and info goes around. so, nothing rly implies he would deny or keep secret Sylvanas raising the death and controlling in it

He wasn't there to do anything about in the first place, and given the pace at which it went from the war in Darkshore to the war in Lordaeron there was never really time to assay it, either. As I also said previously, Baine has been under censure since "Before the Storm" as well, as Sylvanas had already threatened him and his people for Baine's perceived treachery (e.g. attempting to conduct covert peace-talks with Anduin).

Being there when its happening is not rly the point, but he knowing and doing nothing about previously then to suddenly care and do something, only when its about Jaina brother , kinda makes things hard for him.

And trade letters to the enemy leader, in war times is considered treason anyway, Sylvanas can be a piece of shit but He give reason to her be right.

He saw the same thing as everyone else who basically did nothing, which is still putting an unnecessarily large onus on him. He also *did* act, albeit late in the game, and in so doing became the lightning rod that essentially lit the Horde rebellion in full.

And the point is how he acted too late, only when Jaina brother was at sake and he did in the wrong ways, just because end up well don't make him right when in the end he wculd just end up dead tortured by treason when he could have done something about it

I'm unsure if you're being willfully obtuse or just hung up on the specifics.

Wush, apparently being a mod give you the right to call names out.

If you say she is a gul'dan 2.0, i at least expect she being gul'dan 2.0, doing the same amount of shit, not because of just "well she is power hungry", when she clearly is not as bad as him, you can't say everyone is a powerhungry a gul'dan 2.0

That's not a cited source.

the shattering book, happy now?

You're making a series of unproven assumptions here:

it would make 2 people doing unproven assumptions then

how do you know Baine is disconnected with his people?

exiling his people for doing what is right, seems kinda disconnected with then

How do you know the majority aren't fine with the decision?

How do we know they are? lots of things left open the thing is we know that not all taurens peace lovers or alliance bootlicker like Baine is, Baine mourned theramore while the horde, including the tauren where sheering it because they knew that was a place sending resources and reinforcements to the alliance attack their own people

While they want it destroyed baine didn't, its all i need to know

How is the Taurajo exiles' decision "rightful" if it directly disobeys the word of their High Chieftain?

apparently we can disobey the order of the superiors if they were rightful, i mean we literally did with Sylvanas and Garrosh

The Tauren seem pretty unified in wanting peace (understandable given their history of conflict), and there is zero evidence that Baine faces low approval at home - no protests against his leadership, no internal strife in Thunder Bluff that's ever been depicted, etc. etc. I think you're reaching for a justification for your own moral stance that isn't borne out by the facts of the narrative.

since we don't have a single lore about tauren since cataclysm is hard to make any crucial judgement like that

Perhaps, but again, neither here nor there - Baine's internal rationale was never part and parcel of the discussion in the first place.

the whole discussion here is why tauren aren't neutral and why baine is a coward, rly, so i think is relevant overall

Garrosh was opposed well before his inception as Warchief - both of Thrall's most senior advisors (Cairne and Vol'jin) *knew* that Garrosh's reign would be disastrous for the Horde, which is exactly what it was.

by their own fault worth to notice

So no, Garrosh never deserved complete loyalty - even Garrosh himself knew his ascent was a mistake, and told Thrall so in "The Shattering," a warning which unfortunately fell on deaf ears. You trying to cast him as somehow the perfect target of unending loyalty is flatly a revision of history. He was a popular general, yes; but highly divisive among the Horde leadership at the time.

Just because cairne and vol'jin THOUGHT, not knew, since they don't know the future, Garrosh reign would be disastrous mean he didn't deserve rightly loyalty of the horde people, right

what kind of logic is that?

Garrosh had not done a single wrong thing as warchief in that time, in fact, both vol'jin and cairne lashed out at him in the wrong, he was a hero of northrend and thrall himself trusted him in the position, why he should not be a target for loyalty as his tittle demands it?

The "wrong intel" here was that the Horde was planning a renewed offensive, not the nature of Camp Taurajo as a belligerent in the existing conflict or its supplying of Horde warriors fighting against the Alliance in the greater Barrens. Your defense and resulting conclusion are both incorrect.

they had wrong intel that the camp was planning an attack, so they massacred then, i don't know where im incorrect here

I think this will be my final post in this matter, as I feel we're basically circling around without a conclusion in sight - and these replies are growing in length and time commitment on my end. We'll let the audience decide for themselves what they want to believe.

sure, and i will still be thinking that Baine is a coward, no matter if he did something in the end, it don't excuse his past,

- - - Updated - - -

To be honest, this equivalency does not really hold up too well.
The Draenei are, per definition, those who rejected the ways of the Eredar and are victims of the same group. They were the same race originally, yes, but they are distinctly different people. If a human meets a random Draenei, he is guaranteed that said Draenei is not an the same person who, as an Eredar, caused his people harm/grief.
The orcs are much trickier. The vast majority of Orcs drank the blood and became corrupted, only to later lose that corruption. They are the same people, just in a different state of mind. If a human meets a random Orc, she is very likely that said Orc is the same person who has caused her people harm/grief.

while all of then got corrupted by extension, not all of then did drink demon blood, and most of then are long dead and buried, you are blaming the sons for the sins of their parents, there isn't something as "different state of mind" most of the orcs today are born in azeroth or in the concentration camps

We can name a few who were alive back then, like Eitrigg, but he is senile, you could also say the orcs today were victims of their own kin

[Kiri]

while all of then got corrupted by extension, not all of then did drink demon blood, and most of then are long dead and buried, you are blaming the sons for the sins of their parents, there isn't something as "different state of mind" most of the orcs today are born in azeroth or in the concentration camps

We can name a few who were alive back then, like Eitrigg, but he is senile, you could also say the orcs today were victims of their own kin

Most of them being long dead and buried is a bit of a stretch. It hasn't even been 3 decades since the end of the second war, tbh. Thrall himself is basically the indicator for this, since he is one of the first Azeroth-born orcs. Anyone from a generation before him is almost guaranteed to have been corrupted, given that the majority of them was. Your argument basically is that there are no orcs over 45. And given that orcs like Saurfang, who was already an established warrior before the first war, was still pretty strong and spry during BFA, 45 isn't exactly retirement age for them.

Sure, we can name few who were alive back then, but that's mostly because Blizz doesn't bother to name most of them, haha. Not being mentioned in this game isn't exactly anything we can go by. Especially given how utterly inconsistent they are with Orc numbers to begin with. Orcs today seem numerous enough to rival humans, given how the game portrays them, but at the end of WC3 they were the survivors of a splinter faction of the survivors of two previous wars and their young descendants. For WoW, they increased that number, making them the dominant horde race for game balance reasons. Heck, even today they will pull out armies out of the nether whenever they feel like it.

Also, I am not blaming anyone for anything, so I would appreciate it if you didn't insinuate that. I mere explained why it is easier for others to give those other examples a free pass, but not the orcs. It's just a very different case, really. These sorts of things just take time, really. You can already see that in the younger generations, like Thrall, Anduin, Baine etc being more open to the opponents of past conflicts, while the old guard struggles with even accepting others. Sure, there are also young people on either side who grew up indoctrinated by the resentment of their parents, but that is just how it works. The other examples given really don't have that problem.
In general, this is just flawed people acting on incomplete information, which causes stress. I.e. the realistic thing to happen. It's easy to say, as an outside observer with 'objective' information to point out these flaws, but I don't really think one should look down on the characters for being characters, really. Which goes for either side.

[Ragedaug]

To be honest, this equivalency does not really hold up too well.
The Draenei are, per definition, those who rejected the ways of the Eredar and are victims of the same group. They were the same race originally, yes, but they are distinctly different people. If a human meets a random Draenei, he is guaranteed that said Draenei is not an the same person who, as an Eredar, caused his people harm/grief.
The orcs are much trickier. The vast majority of Orcs drank the blood and became corrupted, only to later lose that corruption. They are the same people, just in a different state of mind. If a human meets a random Orc, she is very likely that said Orc is the same person who has caused her people harm/grief.

The non-corrupted Orcs are also those who rejected the ways of the Eredar, and are also the victims of the same group.

Corrupted Orcs turned red. Pretty easy to see the difference.

There is still no difference between both groups, and a couple double standard for holding green Orcs responsible for what the Eredar did, when you don't even hold the Draenei responsible for it.

[Raisei]

Being there when its happening is not rly the point, but he knowing and doing nothing about previously then to suddenly care and do something, only when its about Jaina brother , kinda makes things hard for him.

The point is, he could not have done anything about Teldrassil because he was not there. It is not like Sylvanas had openly planned the genocide and it was weeks in the planning, she decided it on the spot. Derek took time and happened close enough for Baine to do something about. A pretty simple distinction, unless you are determined to not allow such facts cloud your opinion. Which you are.

And the point is how he acted too late, only when Jaina brother was at sake and he did in the wrong ways, just because end up well don't make him right when in the end he wculd just end up dead tortured by treason when he could have done something about it

You are so fixated on Derek it must hurt by now. The point was: Here is another disgusting atrocity the Warchief does, this time there is a chance to prevent it, and Baine took it. You want it to be about Derek and Jaina because you want to hate Baine.

Wush, apparently being a mod give you the right to call names out.

Your continued determination to hate Baine despite all the evidence presented makes the word quite fitting actually. You do not want to have your opinion countered by facts, so you ignore them.

Just because cairne and vol'jin THOUGHT, not knew, since they don't know the future, Garrosh reign would be disastrous mean he didn't deserve rightly loyalty of the horde people, right

what kind of logic is that?

Everyone that wasn't a lobotomized monkey could see that Garrosh was a psychopath driven by his daddy issues as early as WotLK (Thrall was completely blinded by his hope). There is something like judging a person by their merits and their character. Cairne and Vol'jin did exactly that and predicted that Garrosh as Warchief was a disatrously bad idea. And they were completely correct.

sure, and i will still be thinking that Baine is a coward, no matter if he did something in the end, it don't excuse his past,

Of course you will. Would actually be surprised to see one of the "Baine/Saurfang is a traitor and coward, Sylvanas did nothign wrong"-posters to actually show some self-reflection and at least minimally budge from their pre-conceived opinion after being showered with evidence that proves them wrong, but that is never gonna happen.

[Ielenia]

I'm not sure where to start here. The Draenei are Eredar. The Eredar (also known as race of the Draenei) did worse to the Draenei than the Orcs did. The Eredar employed the Orcs. If you want to blame all Orcs for what the corrupted Orcs did, then you have to blame Velen for what Archimonde and Kil'jaeden did.

Are you absolving the Draenei for what the Eredar did?

Yes. I'm "absolving" the draenei for what the man'ari did, because the man'ari and the draenei are different groups. Just like I would "absolve" a man of all guilt if his neighbor committed a crime said man not only took no part in, but also had no knowledge of it.

You are the one with the double standard. I don't blame the non-corrupted Orcs for what the corrupted Orcs did no more than I blame Velen for what the corrupted Eredar did.

You do know that many of the orcs in Orgrimmar are the "corrupted orcs", right? The "uncorrupted orcs" are the Mag'har. Which, mind you, did just as many atrocities as the "corrupted orcs", but without the "we got corrupted!" mitigating factor.

The good news is that you aren't alone. The entire alliance hates all Orcs for what corrupted Orcs did, while having no problem with the Draenei even though the Eredar have done worse.

If what you say is true, then I suppose I am alone, since I don't hate orcs.

Corrupted Orcs: Tried to expand and conquered those in their way. Didn't make it far, were defeated, ended up settling in a wasteland. Then one destroyed an island, was defeated again, then tracked down and killed by an Orc. All Orcs bad!
Corrupted Eredar: Travel the cosmos enslaving entire planet after planet, attempted to destroy Azeroth (multiple times). Still going strong, regardless of the fact that they've been defeated. Eredar are good though.

Here are the things you're either ignoring, or forgetting:
• Man'ari and draenei are different groups of eredar, while many orcs in Orgrimmar are same orcs that drank demon blood and invaded Azeroth.
• Garrosh, arguably one of the worst orcs, was uncorrupted.
• Warlords of Draenor showed that uncorrupted orcs can be just as merciless and bloodthirsty without demon blood.

[Carnagefiend]

The non-corrupted Orcs are also those who rejected the ways of the Eredar, and are also the victims of the same group.

Alright, I'll grant you this, yes, Eredar encompass the race from Argus. Fine, so if we're going to be technical here then you'll want to talk about the difference between the Man'ari and the Draenei, which is substantial. If you want me to use the proper nomenclature, I'd ask you do the same.

Corrupted Orcs turned red. Pretty easy to see the difference.

Incorrect. Orcs free of corruption retain their bronze skin color. Orcs exposed to fel magic turn green and/or gray.

There is still no difference between both groups, and a couple double standard for holding green Orcs responsible for what the Eredar did, when you don't even hold the Draenei responsible for it.

The Draenei, by definition, cannot be held responsible for it as they opposed the Man'ari at their inception. This is unlike the Orcs, of which all individuals, aside from the Frostwolves, fought under Blackhand's will. And, even then, the Frostwolves went to war with the Alliance to claim Alterac Valley.

But I don't absolve the Draenei of anything even in THAT case, because the story arc for them in Legion established Velen's realization that the RIGHT thing to do would have been to oppose the Man'ari on Argus instead of running. The same goes for the majority of the orcs. They shouldn't have drank the blood of Mannoroth.

But this is about "should haves" and "could haves". People blame Syrian refugees for not staying home and fighting too, so there's that.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes. I'm "absolving" the draenei for what the man'ari did, because the man'ari and the draenei are different groups. Just like I would "absolve" a man of all guilt if his neighbor committed a crime said man not only took no part in, but also had no knowledge of it.

Good post, though I slightly disagree here. As I put in my main reply to Ragedaug, I think part of Velen's "sin" and "redemption" was him coming to terms that he did have the knowledge of what happened, but spend thousands of years running from it. The big change was when he summoned the conviction to finish the "Last Battle of Argus".

Otherwise, yeah, I agree with everything else.

[Ragedaug]

Yes. I'm "absolving" the draenei for what the man'ari did, because the man'ari and the draenei are different groups. Just like I would "absolve" a man of all guilt if his neighbor committed a crime said man not only took no part in, but also had no knowledge of it.

Here are the things you're either ignoring, or forgetting:

• Man'ari and draenei are different groups of eredar, while many orcs in Orgrimmar are same orcs that drank demon blood and invaded Azeroth.

Just because they gave names to the different factions doesn't make them different people. Man'ari = corrupted Eredar; Draenei = uncorrupted Eredar. they are the same people. And you don't hold the Draenei responsible for what the Man'ari did, but you hold the non-corrupted Orcs responsible for what the corrupted Orcs and Man'ari did.

• Garrosh, arguably one of the worst orcs, was uncorrupted.

Completely false. He was definitely corrupted. Hearthstone even has a card called "Corrupt Garrosh". If you don't believe Garrosh was corrupted, I would invite you to make a run through Seige of Orgrimmar. Fight Garrosh, then come back here and let me know if you still believe he's not corrupted. Also, he was ended by a non-corrupt Orc.

• Warlords of Draenor showed that uncorrupted orcs can be just as merciless and bloodthirsty without demon blood.

The non-corrupted Orcs of WoD didn't commit nearly the atrocities of the corrupted Orcs. Not close. And then Gul'dan still corrupts the Orcs in WoD anyway.

[Ielenia]

Brighthoof is a tauren talking to a Taunka about the way of life for the Horde and the Tauren.

And what, exactly, is he saying, then? Do you have the transcripts of their talk? Because I honestly don't recall ever hearing Brighthoof say anything even remotely like "we tauren love to enact sweet retribution upon our enemies, and it's our right to go against our High Chieftain's orders if he denies us our revenge."

And no Baine thinks that in the book, it is not fact, stop pushing your fanon.

Yes. He is thinking that in the book. But here's the thing: he's not saying that to anyone else but himself. He's not even saying it out loud. He's internally monologuing. There is absolutely no reason to doubt the words in the book in that case unless you have an agenda to prove. Baine has no reason to lie to himself in that manner. The scene isn't even presented in a way to make the reader believe Baine is trying to convince himself of a lie he himself created.

Baine was angsting about it constantly and even sabotaged his own side by giving Theramore vital information. This shows Tauren don't unanimously think like Baine.

Because the tauren population at large, much like the rest of the Horde population at large, are blissfully unaware of the politics and secret deals happening within the Horde. If the other Horde leaders knew little of Garrosh's plans, why do you think the population at large would know more?

Baine exiled the tauren of Vendetta point, everyone who gave that quest was from Vendetta point...

Because they disobeyed his command. How is that so difficult to undertstand? You disobey your leader, you get punished.

Nothing from Emissary Brighthoof's words imply that a Horde leader can do that, in fact he implied it couldn't be taken away. You're lying again.

I'm not lying. I'm simply telling you how it is. The Blood Oath dictates how the others Horde leaders must act regarding the Horde's warchief and each other. It says nothing about the Horde's warchief dictating how a Horde leader must lead their own people, or interfere in their internal affairs. Heavy evidence of that is how the Warchief has never interfered within the politics of a group.

You think Anduin is too peaceful to lead the Alliance, yet want the even more peaceful Baine who has never willingly lifted a finger against the Alliance to lead the Horde. That implies bias as people have pointed out.

Once again, you miss the mark by such a wide margin that you and the actual point of what I wrote might as well be in different continents.

Baine is still the leader due to Jorn helping him in his hour of need. And Baine's order was a death sentence for the tauren in the barrens and even Mulgore. Jorn chose to do what was right even if it meant Traitorhoof backstabbing him.

That's still not backstabbing, nor was Baine's command a "death sentence".

Read the quest text again and stop treating your headcanon as actual canon.


Jorn was protecting the tauren.

It's not headcanon. It's actual lore. What Jorn is doing is revenge, against his High Chieftain's orders. Baine made an edict for the tauren to not retaliate, and Jorn opted to ignore said edict. And the quest you linked? That's an orc giving you orders. And those ballistas are simply pointed at the gate. They're not firing. There is no fight happening at said gate. Looks more like a stakeout than an actual siege.

They did not, it was only due to the tauren and orcs of Vendetta point that the gate survived. Stop pushing these giant accusations with zero proof.

You accuse me of headcanon, but have no problem in dabbling in it, yourself?

Hawthorne himself mentions his hope to drive the tauren from their lands right here.

Once again, Ielenia headcanons don't equal fact.

He outright says that the Horde is unlikely to ever leave the Barrens. How does that equate to "I hope to push them out of the Barrens"? It's outright stated he has no hope of driving them out.

You are literally defending outright genocide!

No. I'm not. Because the incident here has nothing to do with the Stonespire incident. Those goblins didn't invade and sabotage Bael'dun because of Stonespire. But Twinbraid's attack on the goblins was a response to what the goblins did to him, first.

Even though he's taken more Horde lives then Alliance lives in his whole career and prevents his people from fighting back, and only rebelled against Sylvanas over an Alliance prisoner..

Actually, it's more like rebelling against Sylvanas for violating the very edict of "free will" of the Forsaken, an edict that she created, mind you. Notice how he didn't object to Derek being raised, but against her using Derek in the way she was planning.

The links prove you are lying as they show the tauren of vendetta point were noble and it was only due to them the invasion force breaking down the Gate of Mulgore were repelled.

But they don't prove, anything. The tauren who were exiled, noble or not, disrespected their High Chieftain's orders, and were punished for doing so. On top of that, the Alliance is not shown attacking the gate, whatsoever. They're just standing there, as if waiting for the Tauren to make the first move. There's no Alliance soldier fighting the Horde at the gate.

Nearly every poster has called out your anti Horde bias and zero people, let alone Horde posters, have ever agreed with your warped headcanons.

You have a very warped definition of "nearly everyone", here.

I just linked you calling quest text from honoring the dead, "Alliance - They've surrounded the camp! What are they doing here? Why are they attacking Taurajo? Get the children - run! RUN! "
as RP nonsense.

You're right. I did say that. However, I realized my mistake as I believed it was just a WoWHead poster making that line, and so later I treated the line as canon.

You hate the Horde

I don't hate the Horde.

and have constantly insulted Horde posters here

Disagreeing with people now equals "constantly insulting people". Wow. If that's true, why have I not been infracted yet?

whilst saying murdering Horde civilians, even fleeing women and wholesale genocide is ok

I objectively never said that. I never defended the murdering of civilians.

You don't want the Alliance to be the aggressors, you want the Horde to be weak.

No. I said, multiple times, that I want a change of pace. Meaning, the Alliance be the aggressors, and the Horde be the defenders and ultimately win* against the Alliance in that expansion's story.

* "win", as in the same way the Alliance "won" back in MoP and now in BfA.

[Kiri]

The non-corrupted Orcs are also those who rejected the ways of the Eredar, and are also the victims of the same group.

Corrupted Orcs turned red. Pretty easy to see the difference.

There is still no difference between both groups, and a couple double standard for holding green Orcs responsible for what the Eredar did, when you don't even hold the Draenei responsible for it.

Is this some kind of retcon I don't know of? Last I knew, the blood-curse is what turned the orcs green to begin with and caused them to become pawns of the legion, invading Azeroth. Red orcs, on the other hand, are either Fel Orcs, which are orcs who continued drinking pit lord blood even after the Throne of Kil'Jaeden, and thus are mostly found in Outland/later alternate Draenor. Or they are Chaos Orcs, which is what we call those orcs who drank from the Chaos well during the third war.
I am not even sure why that is brought up anyway, either they were corrupted while attacking Azeroth during the first two wars, in which case it doesn't matter, or they were not corrupted then, which would mean they had already rejected the Legion and were still doing it anyway. In that case, the whole point wouldn't really matter.

Still though, I still hold the belief that the above explanation is sufficient to show why it is less of a double standard, but rather a different situation. One is holding people responsible for what others of their race did, the other is holding people responsible for what other people made them do. Both are flawed in their own right, but one is more reasonable than the other, especially for characters who cannot be sure of this. Because one is blaming people for being of the same race as criminals, the other is not being able to internalize that the people who committed a crime were forced to do it.

[Ielenia]

i think we are entering in a strange loop of delusional

If we are, you're the one pulling us in because you're the one insisting that somehow Baine possesses knowledge he would never have if he truly was this "coward" you're trying to paint him as.

A coward would not call a mak'gora, a coward would not challenge his warchief, a coward would act sooner when worse shit was happening, please your tentative are laughable.

And yet, despite actually challenging his warchief, you still call Baine a coward.

it is horde honor not attack civilains, but tis funny how you tried to nitpick that

By that logic, Garrosh is dishonorable, since he did attack civilians.

just like being a coward, to afraid to act against your warchief when she killed your own people with blight and raised then and let others to die by the alliance

Pretty smart, starting an in-fight in the middle of a war that could cause much more casualties on their side than what already happened, don't you think?

that would imply Baine knew about Koltiras

Turnabout is fair play, is it not? You're assuming Baine has knowledge of something he has no way of knowing if he truly is a coward, but now you're arguing that he didn't know about Kol'tiras? Not to mention that Sylvanas has shown to be the type to not just outright kill people, but rather likes to make them suffer.

the survivors of Taurajo were defending mulgore gates against Alliance incursions, and they were exiled anyway for fighting then and wanting to drive then out, completely retarded, even if it was just by revenge they were in totally right since civilians were killed

So the survivors of Taraujo are to be exalted for disobeying an order from their High Chieftain you consider "completely retarded", but Baine is a coward for disobeying his Warchief?

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Just because they gave names to the different factions doesn't make them different people. Man'ari = corrupted Eredar; Draenei = uncorrupted Eredar. they are the same people. And you don't hold the Draenei responsible for what the Man'ari did, but you hold the non-corrupted Orcs responsible for what the corrupted Orcs and Man'ari did.

Once again: the draenei and man'ari are different groups of eredar. Whereas the "corrupted orcs" you speak of, are basically the same ones within Orgrimmar. Orgrimmar is comprised of the orcs that came to Azeroth after drinking demon blood for conquest. They're not different groups.

Completely false. He was definitely corrupted. Hearthstone even has a card called "Corrupt Garrosh"(1). If you don't believe Garrosh was corrupted, I would invite you to make a run through Seige of Orgrimmar. Fight Garrosh, then come back here and let me know if you still believe he's not corrupted. Also, he was ended by a non-corrupt Orc.

... You do know that Siege of Orgimmar was the end of Garrosh's story within the Horde, right? And Garrosh was uncorrupted when Thrall met him. He was uncorrupted when he started to display the same thirsty for blood as his father had. He was uncorrupted when he planned on attacking the Alliance in the middle of a war against the Scourge, and had to be reprimanded by Saurfang. He was uncorrupted when he dropped the mana bomb in Theramore. He was uncorrupted when he ordered the desecration of the Valley of Eternal Blossoms and retrieved the Heart of Y'shaarj.

And he was uncorrupted when he fled to Alternate Draenor and created the Iron Horde.

The non-corrupted Orcs of WoD didn't commit nearly the atrocities of the corrupted Orcs. Not close. And then Gul'dan still corrupts the Orcs in WoD anyway.

... You do know the uncorrupted orcs were capturing Draenei and using their souls to power the dark portal, right?

[Kalisandra]

They are the victims on the legion sure. They are the bringer of death to Azeroth

The Draenei didn't bring the Legion to Azeroth. Hell, they didn't even bring it to Draenor. The Legion already had it in for Azeroth (thankyou Azshara and friends) and were already working on getting back there, and they'd have found Draenor one way or the other anyway. Kil'Jaden had a hate-on for the Draenei, but the other leaders didn't really give a damn about them and yet they still spread through the universe, conquering, enslaving, and destroying worlds.

You're blaming the Draenei for trying to hide from a genocidal army.

[Syegfryed]

If we are, you're the one pulling us in because you're the one insisting that somehow Baine possesses knowledge he would never have if he truly was this "coward" you're trying to paint him as.

i mean you are the one saying he isn't, just because one instance, regardless of him being a coward before

you literally think he not being a total coward in one instance means he never was in his lifetime what is pretty delusional

And yet, despite actually challenging his warchief, you still call Baine a coward.

"challenging" you mean he going sneaky doing something on her back, then admiting he did when was caught.

Regardless of him not challenging before because he was being a coward, but sure

By that logic, Garrosh is dishonorable, since he did attack civilians.

and by that logic, Baine is a coward, since he did commit acts of cowardice, gladly we are going to the right places, just because you did something once it don't exclude or excuse what you have done before

Pretty smart, starting an in-fight in the middle of a war that could cause much more casualties on their side than what already happened, don't you think?

knowing he is buddy buddy in Anduin, he facing off sylvanas would not cause more casualties, and in the end, casualties happened anyway because of him not acting soon by being a coward

Turnabout is fair play, is it not? You're assuming Baine has knowledge of something he has no way of knowing if he truly is a coward, but now you're arguing that he didn't know about Kol'tiras? Not to mention that Sylvanas has shown to be the type to not just outright kill people, but rather likes to make them suffer.

you are telling me he should not know about the DArkshore things when tropps are going there and back all the time, a open warfront, but he should not about koltiras when he was completelly secured with not even us as readers knew about his destiny?

So the survivors of Taraujo are to be exalted for disobeying an order from their High Chieftain you consider "completely retarded", but Baine is a coward for disobeying his Warchief?

but you are praising Baine cowardice and blatantly treason against his warchief to help the alliance, but we can't exalt the taurujo survivors in their rightful right of retribution and when they were defending mulgore from the alliance attacks

Someone here is wrong.

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The point is, he could not have done anything about Teldrassil because he was not there.

no, he still could have have done something after teldrasil, and he didn't, he eat it

You are so fixated on Derek it must hurt by now. The point was: Here is another disgusting atrocity the Warchief does, this time there is a chance to prevent it, and Baine took it. You want it to be about Derek and Jaina because you want to hate Baine.

And apparently he only cares about prevent this one, one time, and in a sneak way, why not give sylvanas retribution for her past crimes? why give her a free pass for worse atrocities and do nothing about it?

no matter how you people distort things, Baine will be considered the dude who was fine after the elven genocide, fine with her killing his tauren and abandon his people in undercity, and only doing something when it was about Jaina brother, when just like the other, he could have put a blind eye.

curious enough, he commited treason before exactly when Jaina was in game, previously, her city

Your continued determination to hate Baine despite all the evidence presented makes the word quite fitting actually. You do not want to have your opinion countered by facts, so you ignore them.

i am determinate to hate Baine rpeciselly because of all the evidence presented against him, if i was alliance i would love him

Everyone that wasn't a lobotomized monkey could see that Garrosh was a psychopath driven by his daddy issues as early as WotLK (Thrall was completely blinded by his hope).

So, thrall is exception? lmao, Garrosh was fine in the beginning and they could have worked with him to win the war, again, he was done nothing to deserve shit in early cataclysm

There is something like judging a person by their merits and their character. Cairne and Vol'jin did exactly that and predicted that Garrosh as Warchief was a disatrously bad idea. And they were completely correct.

they judge him by their own bias and completely fucked up, Vol'jin even recognize he did shit later and Cairne because he did what people accused Garrosh for, they didn't trust Thrall judgement, and would rather let the alliance to fuck then up than win the war the alliance started

Of course you will. Would actually be surprised to see one of the "Baine/Saurfang is a traitor and coward, Sylvanas did nothign wrong"-posters to actually show some self-reflection and at least minimally budge from their pre-conceived opinion after being showered with evidence that proves them wrong, but that is never gonna happen.

Saurfang was a coward in BfA, they assassinate his character, but later he at least redeemed itself by doing something he should have done after teldrassil, to spare us from this terrible expansion.

i mean you were showered with evidence that Baine is a coward and a bad leader, but sure, he want peace, he is good, lets live with that, no wonder why the horde is becoming so shit lately.

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Most of them being long dead and buried is a bit of a stretch. It hasn't even been 3 decades since the end of the second war, tbh. Thrall himself is basically the indicator for this, since he is one of the first Azeroth-born orcs. Anyone from a generation before him is almost guaranteed to have been corrupted, given that the majority of them was. Your argument basically is that there are no orcs over 45. And given that orcs like Saurfang, who was already an established warrior before the first war, was still pretty strong and spry during BFA, 45 isn't exactly retirement age for them.

Orcs don't live much in a time of war, there isn't much orcs above 45 indeed, and mind you, thrall also got corrupted, he just didn't get the blood frenzy

i didn't said 45 is retirement, im saying they died, literally, if not in the war they died after mannoroth died, Saurfang by example saw dozens of then died when they saw their memories, he helped some, but warriors of the past are rare

Sure, we can name few who were alive back then, but that's mostly because Blizz doesn't bother to name most of them, haha. Not being mentioned in this game isn't exactly anything we can go by. Especially given how utterly inconsistent they are with Orc numbers to begin with. Orcs today seem numerous enough to rival humans, given how the game portrays them, but at the end of WC3 they were the survivors of a splinter faction of the survivors of two previous wars and their young descendants. For WoW, they increased that number, making them the dominant horde race for game balance reasons. Heck, even today they will pull out armies out of the nether whenever they feel like it.

they reproduced in the camps, they were so populous that blackmore wanted to use then to conquer the alliance

Also, I am not blaming anyone for anything, so I would appreciate it if you didn't insinuate that. I mere explained why it is easier for others to give those other examples a free pass, but not the orcs. It's just a very different case, really. These sorts of things just take time, really. You can already see that in the younger generations, like Thrall, Anduin, Baine etc being more open to the opponents of past conflicts, while the old guard struggles with even accepting others. Sure, there are also young people on either side who grew up indoctrinated by the resentment of their parents, but that is just how it works. The other examples given really don't have that problem.
In general, this is just flawed people acting on incomplete information, which causes stress. I.e. the realistic thing to happen. It's easy to say, as an outside observer with 'objective' information to point out these flaws, but I don't really think one should look down on the characters for being characters, really. Which goes for either side.

i mean, generally the alliance have plenty of reasons to hate orcs, i was just saying the ones who did things with humans are mostly dead, they will keep hating each other for their fathers and later for their fathers before then, its what i expect in a game about war.

[Ielenia]

i mean you are the one saying he isn't, just because one instance, regardless of him being a coward before

It wasn't just 'one instance'. And Baine, as explained, is not a coward. A coward doesn't rebel against their leaders. Or even openly question them.

you literally think he not being a total coward in one instance means he never was in his lifetime what is pretty delusional

Because I know what "coward" means, and Baine simply does not fit the description.

and by that logic, Baine is a coward, since he did commit acts of cowardice,

No, he didn't. Going behind someone's back, when said someone could easily kill you anytime they wanted, is not a sign of cowardice. It's risking your life, and a coward doesn't risk his life. Period. By risking his life, even by going behind Sylvanas' back, proves Baine is not a coward.

knowing he is buddy buddy in Anduin, he facing off sylvanas would not cause more casualties, and in the end, casualties happened anyway because of him not acting soon by being a coward

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Baine is, indeed, "buddy buddy" with Anduin (which he is not, btw), it doesn't mean anything because Anduin was not there. You're ludicrously trying to create so many "safety nets" for Baine, and then acting as if Baine was not only aware of those "safety nets", but also counting on them to save his hide, when that was never shown to be the case. Baine didn't say "I knew you guys would rescue me" when we come for him.

you are telling me he should not know about the DArkshore things when tropps are going there and back all the time, a open warfront, but he should not about koltiras when he was completelly secured with not even us as readers knew about his destiny?

You tell me. You're the one assuming Baine knows things he has no way of knowing if he truly is this "coward" you're trying to paint him to be. So why can you do that, but not me?

but you are praising Baine cowardice and blatantly treason against his warchief to help the alliance, but we can't exalt the taurujo survivors in their rightful right of retribution and when they were defending mulgore from the alliance attacks

Someone here is wrong.

It would be you, since I'm not defending Baine for helping the Alliance, as you claim I am. I'm defending Baine because he stood up for what he believes in: peace, and the honor of the Horde, against a warchief that was tearing the Horde from the inside with her insidious plans.

[Carnagefiend]

Just because they gave names to the different factions doesn't make them different people. Man'ari = corrupted Eredar; Draenei = uncorrupted Eredar. they are the same people. And you don't hold the Draenei responsible for what the Man'ari did, but you hold the non-corrupted Orcs responsible for what the corrupted Orcs and Man'ari did.

So, by this logic, German Jews that fled to America after the rise of the Third Reich should have also been tried at the Nuremberg Trials? Is this how it works for you?

You seem to really try to be pushing this topic to address some anti-Orcish strawman. How about you just address the facts as they are instead. I haven't made any claims about Orcs, yet it is the entire foundation of your argument.

[Aucald]

Let's pivot away from the use of real-world history and politics in the discussion and focus instead on the subject of the thread.

[Syegfryed]

It wasn't just 'one instance'. And Baine, as explained, is not a coward. A coward doesn't rebel against their leaders. Or even openly question them.

A coward would wait until everyone was already rebeled, so he could join, just like he did

Because I know what "coward" means, and Baine simply does not fit the description.

that could be very well because your own distort logic and whitewashing him, agree to disagree

Going behind someone's back, when said someone could easily kill you anytime they wanted, is not a sign of cowardice

wush, then ther eis no problem in Garrosh sending sneak assassins to kill vol'jin? oh my how the tables have turned

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Baine is, indeed, "buddy buddy" with Anduin (which he is not, btw)

is he not? dude send a peice of his own horn and was tradding letter with him, and they are not?

ok, will not even address the rest, its clearly what you are trying to do here

You tell me. You're the one assuming Baine knows things he has no way of knowing

How there was no way of Baine knowing about the warfront in darkshore where sylvanas was raising the night elves to serve her?

every one fucking knew it LOL

It would be you, since I'm not defending Baine for helping the Alliance, as you claim I am. I'm defending Baine because he stood up for what he believes in: peace, and the honor of the Horde, against a warchief that was tearing the Horde from the inside with her insidious plans.

and he "stood" too late, for the wrong reasons

acted too late because he is a coward and acted for the wrong reasons just because it was jaina brother in play

[Ragedaug]

So, by this logic, German Jews that fled to America after the rise of the Third Reich should have also been tried at the Nuremberg Trials? Is this how it works for you?

You seem to really try to be pushing this topic to address some anti-Orcish strawman. How about you just address the facts as they are instead. I haven't made any claims about Orcs, yet it is the entire foundation of your argument.

No, I'm on the other side of the argument. I'm showing how ridiculous it is to hold hatred toward an entire race for what some bad ones did. Somehow the alliance, especially the Draenei, think this should only apply to the Orcs even though their own races have done worse things. But they will always hearken back to once upon a time when the Eredar tricked the Orcs into attacking the other Eredar. No other race is condemned for what the bad members of their race did, but if you are Alliance, you still condemn the entire race of Orcs.

[Surfd]

Taurens make sense, but why would the Draenei stay neutral after most of their people were needlessly slaughtered by orcs?

Orcs didn't invade the draenei planet. But they did bring death in their wake, that is true.

Maybe because the people in charge (Velen) actually understand the truth, and find it hard to force their entire faction into blaming the other side for something THEY were responsible for in the first place?

Sure, the Orcs were responsible for a lot of very bad shit being done against the Draenei, but who is responsible for the Orcs being targeted and used as puppets by the legion to begin with? Remember, the Draenei are ultimately responsible for everything that happened to the Orcs because they decided to flee to Dranor and hide out there, which eventually ended up bringing the legion down on all of them. They willingly (and in Velen's case, likely KNOWINGLY) exposed an entire innocent civilization to what turned out to be cataclysmic peril because they chose an already occupied world as their bolt hole.

[Raisei]

Maybe because the people in charge (Velen) actually understand the truth, and find it hard to force their entire faction into blaming the other side for something THEY were responsible for in the first place?

Sure, the Orcs were responsible for a lot of very bad shit being done against the Draenei, but who is responsible for the Orcs being targeted and used as puppets by the legion to begin with? Remember, the Draenei are ultimately responsible for everything that happened to the Orcs because they decided to flee to Dranor and hide out there, which eventually ended up bringing the legion down on all of them. They willingly (and in Velen's case, likely KNOWINGLY) exposed an entire innocent civilization to what turned out to be cataclysmic peril because they chose an already occupied world as their bolt hole.

Oh my heart bleeds for those poor innocent Orcs. Lemme think back, what was it exactly that the uncorrupted Orcs did when they declined to fight for the Legion? Oh yes, I remember now, they genocided and enslaved the Draenei anyway and were ready to roll over Azeroth to murder everyone there too. Their culture (using that term loosely) is based on warfare, their leader is called "Warchief" for gods sake. "Innocent Civilisation" my ass.

Besides, the constant victim blaming in this forum is sickening. You Horde apologists really have no line you won't cross. Do you regularly blame refugees for not staying at home to be slaughtered like animals?