Why aren't Tauren and Draenei just Neutral?

[Ielenia]

A coward would wait until everyone was already rebeled, so he could join, just like he did

Are you kidding me? No one else was rebelling when Baine did. As far as he knew, he was the only one working against Sylvanas. Everyone else was doing her bidding.

that could be very well because your own distort logic and whitewashing him, agree to disagree

You call what I write "distorted logic", yet you call Baine a coward for 'only rebelling after others did' when he was the only one actually rebelling.

wush, then ther eis no problem in Garrosh sending sneak assassins to kill vol'jin? oh my how the tables have turned

Apples and stones.

You "turned" someone else's table. These are completely different situations. The Garrosh attacking vol'jin was a discussion about honor, not cowardice. And Garrosh was the leader, the most powerful of the two.

ok, will not even address the rest, its clearly what you are trying to do here

You won't, because you can't.

How there was no way of Baine knowing about the warfront in darkshore where sylvanas was raising the night elves to serve her?

every one fucking knew it LOL

I'm talking about your insistence that Baine knew that openly questioning the warchief would not cause him any issues. That is what I'm talking about when I say "things Baine would have no way of knowing if he was the coward you're trying to paint him as".

and he "stood" too late, for the wrong reasons

"Too late" or "too early" is not only arguable, but also irrelevant. And "wrong reasons"? That's pretty much inarguable that you're wrong. He did it for the Horde, for the honor of the Horde, to preserve the ideals of the Horde he joined.

acted for the wrong reasons just because it was jaina brother in play

Again, you're wrong. It wasn't because it was "Jaina's brother". But, once again, because Sylvanas planned to sully the honor of the Horde even more by not only using dishonorable tactics, but also by violating one of the cornerstone pillars of the Forsaken: free will.

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No, I'm on the other side of the argument. I'm showing how ridiculous it is to hold hatred toward an entire race for what some bad ones did. Somehow the alliance, especially the Draenei, think this should only apply to the Orcs even though their own races have done worse things. But they will always hearken back to once upon a time when the Eredar tricked the Orcs into attacking the other Eredar. No other race is condemned for what the bad members of their race did, but if you are Alliance, you still condemn the entire race of Orcs.

The problem, here, is that the comparison between the draenei and the orcs fail. The eredar that tricked the orcs, the man'ari, are not the same group of eredar, the draenei, that got attacked by the orcs.

But the orcs within Orgrimmar? They are mostly the same orcs that invaded Azeroth through the Dark Portal and painted a red path through Stormwind and other human lands. And then we have Garrosh who seemed all too eager to rekindle those "bad memories" within the Alliance.

[Kiri]

Orcs don't live much in a time of war, there isn't much orcs above 45 indeed, and mind you, thrall also got corrupted, he just didn't get the blood frenzy

i didn't said 45 is retirement, im saying they died, literally, if not in the war they died after mannoroth died, Saurfang by example saw dozens of then died when they saw their memories, he helped some, but warriors of the past are rare

they reproduced in the camps, they were so populous that blackmore wanted to use then to conquer the alliance

i mean, generally the alliance have plenty of reasons to hate orcs, i was just saying the ones who did things with humans are mostly dead, they will keep hating each other for their fathers and later for their fathers before then, its what i expect in a game about war.

I meant more like, the ones that went with Thrall back in WC3 weren't that many in the grand scheme of things - enough to fit into the ships they stole from the alliance - and then they lost a lot more to the Chaos Well incident and the rest of the war. The number of orcs we have today doesn't really mesh with that history too much, simply because Blizz decided that there should be more orcs. They do that to all kinds of races, really, since the lore is made to fit the gameplay they desire, not the other way around. That's why it is usually kind of pointless to debate points of logic for anything not explicitly stated, really. Not in the sense that we shouldn't discuss it, but rather because logic doesn't dictate plot a lot of the time. We could discuss the average age of the orc population here all day, with solid points on either side, but we won't really reach any concise point anyway. Blizz could come up tomorrow saying that every single orc from those days is dead and gone now. Or they could say that a majority of orcs alive today were actively corrupted, instead of having the green skin passed down. And we would just have to swallow either, haha.

Though, most likely, they don't care either way and will continue to ascribe hate in characters, and whether it may be justified or not, in any way they want for the sake of the story they want to tell.

But yeah, realistically, these cycles of hatred will just continue on. All I really wanted to say originally, is that these cycles also need certain factors to really develop. Orcs and Humans had decades of war and strained relationship between their races to build up the resentment, but that isn't the case with the other options I originally replied to. Highborn, Highelves, Humans due to Arthas just don't have that history, even lacking the "us vs them" mentality, since it was always more like "us vs that individual and those who follow them". Eredar - Draenei stuff is closest in some ways, but just too disconnected imho, due to the Draenei looking distinctly different, Eredar as a race not really being too prominent during the legion invasion, etc. Plus, there isn't really a cycle of hatred to be followed there to begin with. The alliance didn't really hurt the Draenei, and was instead met with peace and assistance. That just makes it harder to create said cycle, unlike with the Orcs were there are legitimate, painful grievances on both sides.

[Syegfryed]

Are you kidding me? No one else was rebelling when Baine did. As far as he knew, he was the only one working against Sylvanas. Everyone else was doing her bidding.

Saurfang was already rebeling, Zekhan, the kid troll stand against Sylvanas and her Dark rangers first LOL

Baine also wait everyone be against Garrosh, and wait to be kicked out by him

You call what I write "distorted logic", yet you call Baine a coward for 'only rebelling after others did' when he was the only one actually rebelling.

"rebel" by freeing jaina brother, adn accepting his fate, waow

Apples and stones.

Now that is against your lofic, of course is different isn't?

You "turned" someone else's table. These are completely different situations. The Garrosh attacking vol'jin was a discussion about honor, not cowardice. And Garrosh was the leader, the most powerful of the two.

Honor and cowardice walk together, and you don't know if Garrosh was most powerful, vol'jin was a shadow hunter, controlling dark magic

You won't, because you can't.

whatever you say

I'm talking about your insistence that Baine knew that openly questioning the warchief would not cause him any issues. That is what I'm talking about when I say "things Baine would have no way of knowing if he was the coward you're trying to paint him as".

Because he keep doing with no consequences whatsoever as long he keep doing what they said, pretty simple

"Too late" or "too early" is not only arguable, but also irrelevant.

It is, and it is relevant, since is thewhole point of the problem, we saw worse shit and did shit about it, because he was a coward until he wasn't

Blame blizzard terrible writing, but is the truth

And "wrong reasons"? That's pretty much inarguable that you're wrong. He did it for the Horde, for the honor of the Horde, to preserve the ideals of the Horde he joined.

He did for Jaina brother, thats it, he could have done his blind eye, like he did other times before, but no, "now is for the horde"

"kill members of the horde, for the alliance character"

such for the horde move

Again, you're wrong. It wasn't because it was "Jaina's brother".

it was literally because of that, any other he would do like he did before, nothing

But, once again, because Sylvanas planned to sully the honor of the Horde even more by not only using dishonorable tactics, but also by violating one of the cornerstone pillars of the Forsaken: free will.

And she already have done before, and worse, but now? not cool, i wonder why

But the orcs within Orgrimmar? They are mostly the same orcs that invaded Azeroth through the Dark Portal and painted a red path through Stormwind and other human lands. And then we have Garrosh who seemed all too eager to rekindle those "bad memories" within the Alliance.

it is already stated that most of the orcs of orgrimmar are not the same orcs, but born here and in the camps

[Ielenia]

Saurfang was already rebeling, Zekhan, the kid troll stand against Sylvanas and her Dark rangers first LOL

Alright. So you're assuming something that Baine has no way of knowing because Saurfang's freedom was not made public? You berate me for "assuming things Baine knows", but now you go and do the same thing, again.

Baine also wait everyone be against Garrosh, and wait to be kicked out by him

If you read Tides of War, you'll see that Baine was questioning Garrosh long before Theramore.

"rebel" by freeing jaina brother, adn accepting his fate, waow

Distorted logic, indeed. You're letting your bias against Baine to cloud your understanding of the facts.

Honor and cowardice walk together, and you don't know if Garrosh was most powerful, vol'jin was a shadow hunter, controlling dark magic

No, they don't necessarily walk together.

Because he keep doing with no consequences whatsoever as long he keep doing what they said, pretty simple

I'll repeat, once again: you're assuming Baine has knowledge of something he would have no way of knowing if he was such a coward you think he is, because such a coward would never question their warchief, even once, to find out if it's safe or not to openly question them.

He did for Jaina brother, thats it,

You're wrong. He did it to prevent the Horde from plummeting deeper into the pit that Sylvanas was forcing them into.

it was literally because of that, any other he would do like he did before, nothing

Read the definition of "the straw that broke the camel's back", please.

it is already stated that most of the orcs of orgrimmar are not the same orcs, but born here and in the camps

Where is it stated?

[Syegfryed]

Alright. So you're assuming something that Baine has no way of knowing because Saurfang's freedom was not made public? You berate me for "assuming things Baine knows", but now you go and do the same thing, again.

you don't even know what you are arguing anymore right?

If you read Tides of War, you'll see that Baine was questioning Garrosh long before Theramore.

questioning and doing nothing means shit, hell is full of people with good intentions and with people who only say don't act

Distorted logic, indeed. You're letting your bias against Baine to cloud your understanding of the facts.

on the contrary, your bias as alliance is clouding your judgement, of course Baine, a peacemonger, a coward who kill horde to save alliance and commit treason for the good of the alliance would be the perfect leader of the horde in your eyes

No, they don't necessarily walk together.

they do often

I'll repeat, once again: you're assuming Baine has knowledge of something he would have no way of knowing

You are assuming he have no way of knowing, you are assuming he is an idiot not the leader of an entire race with the minimum of intelligence

if he was such a coward you think he is, because such a coward would never question their warchief, even once, to find out if it's safe or not to openly question them.

Cowards question and don't act

You're wrong. He did it to prevent the Horde from plummeting deeper into the pit that Sylvanas was forcing them into.

wush i guess getting a bucked of water out of the titanic sure would prevent it of sinking, what a great logic

Read the definition of "the straw that broke the camel's back", please.

no, not rly, things worse he did shit, the straw was because it was jaina brother and she was aiming to kill jaina

Where is it stated?

in the canon, think its the recent chronicles, but there is other sources about most orcs of orgrimmar and in general being born in azeroth already

[Ielenia]

you don't even know what you are arguing anymore right?

What I'm arguing for has not changed.

questioning and doing nothing means shit, hell is full of people with good intentions and with people who only say don't act

And a coward wouldn't even question, in fear of reprisal. And before you say anything about Baine somehow knowing he wouldn't be punished, a coward would never question his superiors, which is why Baine, if he truly was this coward you accuse him of, wouldn't have knowledge that questioning someone wouldn't land him in trouble, because he would never have questioned Garrosh or Sylvanas.

on the contrary, your bias as alliance is clouding your judgement,

How can I have a "bias for the Alliance" if it has been quoted here a post of mine wanting the Alliance to be the bad guys and lose a war for once!?

You are assuming he have no way of knowing, you are assuming he is an idiot not the leader of an entire race with the minimum of intelligence

You're the one accusing him of being a coward. If he truly was a coward, he would never, ever question the warchief, in fear of reprisal, hence how there was no way he could have known that questioning the warchief is ok and wouldn't give him trouble. That's the whole thing of being a coward: being easily frightened.

Cowards question and don't act

Cowards don't even question. That's the whole thing of being a coward.

wush i guess getting a bucked of water out of the titanic sure would prevent it of sinking, what a great logic

No, but adding one more bucket into the Titanic would surely cause it so sink if it was already at its weight limit. You're demonstrating an incredible lack of logic skills. You know there is such a thing as a "point of no return", right?

in the canon, think its the recent chronicles, but there is other sources about most orcs of orgrimmar and in general being born in azeroth already

And what are those sources? Can you quote?

[Syegfryed]

And a coward wouldn't even question, in fear of reprisal.

there is an entire spectrum of cowardice, you are trying to work here in binary, thinking because he did one thing, literally erase everything else, and is where your logic fail, there is tons of people who are cowards on the internet and talk a lot of shit, knowing the internet is hard to get then, there is ton of cowards in power who talk what they want and they would not talk if not by that

cowards also don't act in fear of reprisal, is what Baine did, simple as that,

Since we already detect your problem of why you see things in binary, either 8 or 80, we can safe ignore the entirety of your post.

And what are those sources? Can you quote?

like i said the chronicles, don't have page, the other sources i don't remember, i remember Koak story talking about He also being born in the camps, pretty sure there is quests about it, we have to put a pin in there.

[Motso]

Syegfryed it seems like you are conflating coward and traitor a bit in your assessment of Baine. And I get the definite sense that you are essentially using coward to mean wimpy, and Ielenia is using it to mean dishonorable (more or less) and so you guys are never going to come to a conclusion.

[Syegfryed]

Syegfryed it seems like you are conflating coward and traitor a bit in your assessment of Baine. And I get the definite sense that you are essentially using coward to mean wimpy, and Ielenia is using it to mean dishonorable (more or less) and so you guys are never going to come to a conclusion.

i think he is both actually, he indeed commit treason before, warning theramore of the Horde attack and didn't act many times before against both Garrosh and Sylvanas in fear, he thinks that just because Baine badmouth then one time he is cleaned from his cowardice

I don't even consider him going against sylvanas treason btw, cause i don't even consider her a legitimate warchief.

[Motso]

i think he is both actually, he indeed commit treason before, warning theramore of the Horde attack and didn't act many times before against both Garrosh and Baine in fear, he thinks that just because Baine badmouth then one time he is cleaned from his cowardice

I don't even consider him going against sylvanas treason btw, cause i don't even consider her a legitimate warchief.

Yeah honestly its a fair cop for the most part. Its pretty interesting because I think you are both right coming from the angles you are, because you are coming at it from fundamentally different interpretations of of cowardice.

[Rhozul]

It wasn't just 'one instance'. And Baine, as explained, is not a coward. A coward doesn't rebel against their leaders. Or even openly question them.


Because I know what "coward" means, and Baine simply does not fit the description.


No, he didn't. Going behind someone's back, when said someone could easily kill you anytime they wanted, is not a sign of cowardice. It's risking your life, and a coward doesn't risk his life. Period. By risking his life, even by going behind Sylvanas' back, proves Baine is not a coward.


Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Baine is, indeed, "buddy buddy" with Anduin (which he is not, btw), it doesn't mean anything because Anduin was not there. You're ludicrously trying to create so many "safety nets" for Baine, and then acting as if Baine was not only aware of those "safety nets", but also counting on them to save his hide, when that was never shown to be the case. Baine didn't say "I knew you guys would rescue me" when we come for him.


You tell me. You're the one assuming Baine knows things he has no way of knowing if he truly is this "coward" you're trying to paint him to be. So why can you do that, but not me?


It would be you, since I'm not defending Baine for helping the Alliance, as you claim I am. I'm defending Baine because he stood up for what he believes in: peace, and the honor of the Horde, against a warchief that was tearing the Horde from the inside with her insidious plans.

The Draenei aren't Neutral because the orcs decimated their population, completely sacking Shat'trah and slaughtering thousands, only for Kael'thas's blood elves to assault them aboard their interdimensional ships, ultimately stealing Tempest Keep, the Botanica, the Mechanar, and the Alcatraz.

The Tauren aren't Neutral because the Alliance marched out of Dustwallow Marsh just before the events of Cataclysm and raised Camp Taujaro, slaying most of the people there and forcing all of the surviving residents of the peaceful outpost to flee into Quilboar territory where they were murdered.

[mickybrighteyes]

If you look at the above you'll notice that what you're talking about, and what I'm talking about, don't appear to be the same thing at all.

It's what I've always thought of as the major issue in the difference between the novellas and the in game event. I scoffed at the slight diffrences comment entirely because this difference exists.

A shift in the tail-end of the sequence doesn't really change anything of note, either.

I disagree because this shift would indicate different motives in the the actions seen.

In one we have a ruined planned hastily salvaged in the other we have a weird over the top villaintrope. This is not an insignificant detail, this is like "gloves don't fit" bullshit. The story is just rife with a hodgepodge of bullshit where we're expected to just ignore details so the intended 'villain' just remains the only reason for anything to have happened. Why did Teldrassil turn to ashes? Solely and entirely because Sylvanas sullied the honor of the horde! And this is the only way the story ever elaborates on it from then on.

[Aucald]

It's what I've always thought of as the major issue in the difference between the novellas and the in game event. I scoffed at the slight diffrences comment entirely because this difference exists.

What are the real differences, though? The burning of Teldrassil in-game is basically told by a replaying of Sylvanas' "Warbringers" cinematic, which features her conversation with Delayrn, a brief recap of her death at Arthas' hands, and the destruction of Teldrassil by artillery fire. The only salient thing missing from the in-game sequence is Saurfang's reaction in the interim, which basically changes nothing - he has an outburst and is immediately cowed into inaction, that's basically it. And since that event is itself implied in the "Old Soldier" cinematic and the events of the Battle of Lordaeron, it still counts as having been recounted in-game, even if the sequence is a bit different from the novella.

I disagree because this shift would indicate different motives in the the actions seen.

In one we have a ruined planned hastily salvaged in the other we have a weird over the top villaintrope. This is not an insignificant detail, this is like "gloves don't fit" bullshit. The story is just rife with a hodgepodge of bullshit where we're expected to just ignore details so the intended 'villain' just remains the only reason for anything to have happened. Why did Teldrassil turn to ashes? Solely and entirely because Sylvanas sullied the honor of the horde! And this is the only way the story ever elaborates on it from then on.

Be we know now that the "weird over the top villain trope" was always intended, making your take on the events wrong on two counts. Teldrassil burned to ash because Sylvanas wanted death all along, and her rationale to Saurfang was (and always had been) a pack of lies sold to him and the greater Horde to pitch them headlong into an unending war. "A Good War" even foreshadows this a bit, with Sylvanas intimating that she had greater plans, plans of a nature so stark that she expected and factored in the intervention of Elune herself. The revelations of 8.2.5 and 8.3 simply show that you were originally mistaken in your take on the in-game events concerning the War of Thorns. If you believed Sylvanas ever meant good by the Horde, then you were simply wrong about her role in the story.

[Ielenia]

The Tauren aren't Neutral because the Alliance marched out of Dustwallow Marsh just before the events of Cataclysm and raised Camp Taujaro, slaying most of the people there and forcing all of the surviving residents of the peaceful outpost to flee into Quilboar territory where they were murdered.

Taraujo wasn't "peaceful" though, considering it has been supplying the Horde by training and outfitting their warriors and hunters. That's like saying Theramore was a "peaceful" outpost, though.

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there is an entire spectrum of cowardice,

And you are accusing Baine of being the "worst of the worst" type of coward:

Not all taurens are spineless cowards like Baine

yes, and Baine is both, a pacifist and a spineless coward

In other words, the kind of coward who wouldn't even think of questioning the warchief in fear of reprisal.

[Syegfryed]

And you are accusing Baine of being the "worst of the worst" type of coward:

Just because i put the adjective "spinless" don't even imply he is the worse of the worst, this is entirelly your prokection and nitpicking showing again.

i even say not all of then, implying there is more peacemongers like baine, lmao

In other words, the kind of coward who wouldn't even think of questioning the warchief in fear of reprisal.

in your words, don't try to distort my words because you love nitpicking, he is a coward who don't act against genocide or other shit, simple as that

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Taraujo wasn't "peaceful" though, considering it has been supplying the Horde by training and outfitting their warriors and hunters. That's like saying Theramore was a "peaceful" outpost, though.

training warriors and hunters as mere ingame trainers don't make then not peaceful, taurujo never was a danger to the alliance forces who were invading tauren lands, Taurujo never acted as horde base to attack the alliance, so its dishonest compare with Theramore.

[Ielenia]

Just because i put the adjective "spinless" don't even imply he is the worse of the worst, this is entirelly your prokection and nitpicking showing again.

But by using the adjective "spineless" you're implying that Baine is not a "light" type of coward, but the kind that would shake in their boots just by having the warchief look at him with a frown, which, again, means such a character would never even question the warchief for fear of reprisal.

training warriors and hunters as mere ingame trainers don't make then not peaceful, taurujo never was a danger to the alliance forces who were invading tauren lands, Taurujo never acted as horde base to attack the alliance, so its dishonest compare with Theramore.

Peaceful is not synonymous with "non-threatening" by the simple fact it was training and outfitting warriors and hunters. Remember that Alliance acted on the information that Taraujo was indeed being used as a staging ground for an attack on Theramore. Wrong information, but the characters did not know that at the time.

[Syegfryed]

But by using the adjective "spineless" you're implying that Baine is not a "light" type of coward, but the kind that would shake in their boots just by having the warchief look at him with a frown, which, again, means such a character would never even question the warchief for fear of reprisal.

you are saying that i said he was the worst, you are projecting and nittpicking my response that was mostly with an sarcastic air, thats why i only used spineless in the first post

Again, you are nitpicking and trying to change what i mean, you are projecting that i was implying he was the kind of who didn't even question, and my entire point in all those pages is how he never acted

Peaceful is not synonymous with "non-threatening" by the simple fact it was training and outfitting warriors and hunters. Remember that Alliance acted on the information that Taraujo was indeed being used as a staging ground for an attack on Theramore. Wrong information, but the characters did not know that at the time.

It was not threatening, harmless training hunters and warriors as a class, isn't a threat

i know they acted with wrong information, but it was peaceful and was not threatening the alliance, totally different from theramore that you tried to put in the same bag.

[Ielenia]

you are saying that i said he was the worst, you are projecting and nittpicking my response that was mostly with an sarcastic air, thats why i only used spineless in the first post

You used the adjective twice.

Again, you are nitpicking and trying to change what i mean, you are projecting that i was implying he was the kind of who didn't even question, and my entire point in all those pages is how he never acted

You're the one calling him a coward. A coward simply would not question the Warchief. Simple as that.

It was not threatening, harmless training hunters and warriors as a class, isn't a threat

Oh, please. There's no such thing as "harmlessly training hunters and warriors". Why do you think they were training soldiers? To work as gardeners and babysitters? Any place that works as a military station, even if there's civilians living there, is not "non-threatening".

Otherwise, Theramore is not a threat and attacking it was wrong.

i know they acted with wrong information, but it was peaceful and was not threatening the alliance, totally different from theramore that you tried to put in the same bag.

They are in the exact same "bag".

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Theramore was a legitimate military target, it'd be one thing if it was a unfortified town, but this was a walled city with battleships and troops. Also Rhonin died in the blast so i'd say that's a huge win

[Syegfryed]

You used the adjective twice.

wow, sure that invalidate my entire point

You're the one calling him a coward. A coward simply would not question the Warchief. Simple as that.

a coward would do that yes, also, a coward would not ACT, against the warchief, that is simple

Oh, please. There's no such thing as "harmlessly training hunters and warriors". Why do you think they were training soldiers?

there is nothing saying they were training soldiers, isn't like a militar based of training to raise more kor'kron

To work as gardeners and babysitters? Any place that works as a military station, even if there's civilians living there, is not "non-threatening".

there was no threat and they never did a thing, they attack literally because the intel was wrong about it

Otherwise, Theramore is not a threat and attacking it was wrong.


They are in the exact same "bag"

they aren't and again, is dishonest to say that, theramore was sending resources and reinforcements to attack the horde, directly, and acted as a main alliance base to attack the horde, taurujo never done such thing