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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    There's nothing wrong with having mechanics in dungeons/on bosses that can't be overcome (or can't be overcome without serious gear) by brute force. 5mans are supposed to be mini raids, not 5 people hitting target dummies.

    If some lfr hero can't be bothered to learn to hook the guy off the wall in SL and you can't just mindlessly nuke the aboms down and the group wipes they deserve to get yelled at until they learn or they quit.

    Edit; I mean we're at the point now that the only time mythic 0s are challenging is like the first two weeks of an expansion, if lfd groups are going to be wiping in heroic because people can't figure out how to get back up to the lich by running through a gauntlet maybe some slaps on the wrist will make them open the dungeon journal.
    5 mans are not, and never have been "mini-raids." Are there certain dungeons which could be considered them yes, but by and large they are not. having pass/fail mechanics on normal dungeons that people are going to be running into via story, and just basic leveling is dumb. Keep that shit to heroic/mythic or get rid of difficulties entirely.

  2. #22
    If they're queable, they need to be approachable, is essentially the mindset of the playerbase.

    Anything you can't queue for, is fair game to make challenging. But once it's queable, you need to make it so even a caveman can do it, because a caveman will eventually start queueing and ruining everyone else's experience if they can't.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    If they're queable, they need to be approachable, is essentially the mindset of the playerbase.

    Anything you can't queue for, is fair game to make challenging. But once it's queable, you need to make it so even a caveman can do it, because a caveman will eventually start queueing and ruining everyone else's experience if they can't.
    I actually very much agree with this point of view. The way I usually phrase it is "it needs to be idiot proof, because you may inherit an idiot in queue, and that shouldn't doom your run." I also regularly lean into the whole language barrier thing obligating the queueable difficulties to be relatively foolproof.

    But as I say, I'm far less offended by non-foolproof dungeons when they have been basically usurped by world quests in my regular routine, and I wonder if that's like... how things are being developed on purpose.

    I still think that queued dungeons should be idiot proof, but I guess I wonder if Blizzard still thinks that now that we have so many other options competing for our time.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyjscizzle View Post
    5 mans are not, and never have been "mini-raids." Are there certain dungeons which could be considered them yes, but by and large they are not. having pass/fail mechanics on normal dungeons that people are going to be running into via story, and just basic leveling is dumb. Keep that shit to heroic/mythic or get rid of difficulties entirely.
    What? A group of people enter an instance where you are required to clear trash mobs in order to access bosses who have large health pools and mechanics to get gear. Did I just describe a dungeon or a raid?

    Further: Loken in wrath will oneshot non-tank players if you ignore the lighting; The jhin guy in cata will kill anyone (without an immunity) that doesn't get in the lightning tent; Erudax in cata will wipe you if you don't move out of the fire or can't kill his adds; the shivara in magisters terrace will wipe you if people dont cc the adds; ozruk will oneshot people who don't know the fight.
    I'm sure there are more that's just off the top of my head. The idea being put forward that dungeons didn't have mechanics everyone had to pay attention to or you wiped before M+ is just blatantly false.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    If they're queable, they need to be approachable, is essentially the mindset of the playerbase.

    Anything you can't queue for, is fair game to make challenging. But once it's queable, you need to make it so even a caveman can do it, because a caveman will eventually start queueing and ruining everyone else's experience if they can't.
    You hit the nail right on the head, leave the "One mistake, you're dead" (And with players being as impatient as they are, kicked out of the group) stuff for mythic, basically anybody should be able to do normal and heroic, if pieces of lore and ending quests to levelling zones are in there, pretty much anybody should be able to finish them without worry.

    Basically, normal and heroic should be fun to do without having to study external websites and a stack of YouTube videos first, as far as gear goes they're outmoded pretty quickly (I geared up just fine running each dungeon just once for quests and achievements), so don't make running them too much hassle, or people will just skip them. (Not a waste of resources since it's obvious 5-mans are made purely for MDI anyway, but still a shame for the many people who can't be bothered with mythic, but just want to run a few dungeons sometimes)

  6. #26
    An experience from a different game, ESO, tells me that there are a lot of people that think raids (trials) are stupid. Some people prefer smaller groups of challenging content. In ESO, lots of DLC release dungeons, which drop the SAME QUALITY gear as the original dungeons, but are easily 10x harder. Some people just want challenging content for their section of the market. Harder dungeons appeal to a different audience. WoW is totally different though because you really no longer have access to the easy dungeons.

  7. #27
    Banned Zremax's Avatar
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    Good question. I'm not sure actually, definitely questionable.

  8. #28
    Mists of Tirna Scithe will be THE hated dungeon in BFA

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    I just saw a bit describing the new ardenweald dungeon, and there is apparently a "do a maze, and if someone makes a wrong turn, we all go back to the beginning" element to it.
    See, i absolutely LOVE those type of gimmicky fights - absolutely love them.



    IF it is a single person, and the group can pick that person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devilzxlin View Post
    Mists of Tirna Scithe will be THE hated dungeon in BFA
    Seems unlikely, considering its not in BFA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    If they're queable, they need to be approachable, is essentially the mindset of the playerbase.

    Anything you can't queue for, is fair game to make challenging. But once it's queable, you need to make it so even a caveman can do it, because a caveman will eventually start queueing and ruining everyone else's experience if they can't.
    Final boss of LFR anyone?

    I agree with this to an extent. We have all seen too many runs scuttled because one person just didnt have a clue what they are doing, and many of us have the expectation that if someone is queuing for a random group on a certain type of content, they have either some experience in there, or an acceptable skill level to perform effectively. This assumption is right or wrong, depending on your POV, but it is quite clear now that a large percentage of players are quite comfortable queuing for a heroic raid even if they have never done normal, or even LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I'm sure there are more that's just off the top of my head. The idea being put forward that dungeons didn't have mechanics everyone had to pay attention to or you wiped before M+ is just blatantly false.
    I actually believe bosses were far MORE punishing in the past and that at lower levels, normal, heroic, m+0 and even low level m+, the bosses are an absolute pushover. Because of the change in philosophy where so much of the difficulty is pushed onto the trash, they just seem to have taken a left turn and changed how they design dungeon boss encounters. I believe that is partly to ensure they are still manageable at very high M+ levels, especially singe players are unlikely to have any CDs left, and there is such a strong focus on rushing through.

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