Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[gondrin]

Rittenhouse was found not guilty because how messed up US state law is.
If any other person would have gone and killed Rittenhouse during the same event he or she could also claim self defense based on the actions of what Rittenhouse did.

Problem with US law is the inherit advantage for people of a certain background who can start a conflict and then claim self defense like with Zimmerman. Ahmaud Arbery case for example would have turned out differently if those rednecks pigs didn't record the whole god dam thing.

Yep. The way the law is written in Wisconsin, the moment both parties pull guns out and start pointing them at each other, they both can claim self-defense, regardless of who started it.

[Noxx79]

His character, whether he's a good boy or son of satan is irrelevant, every human has right of self defense.

People are here calling for blm n antifa to attack people with impunity, that one doesn't have right to fight back?

You literally have a pedophile attacking a kid, n cuz kid isn't wearing ut team colors u are siding with the pedophile?

And here I thought football hooligans were awful...

I'm sure u all would be saying very different things if the kid with the gun was black n got attacked by 3 white proud bois with criminal records, one being a pedophile..

Are you off your meds? You’re really mad at something that didn’t happen and something completely imaginary. You can get help with that.

[Chipped coin]

It's the "OK" sign with your index finger/thumb forming a circle and your other three fingers extended.

Its use as a "white power" (because the gesture forms a crude "W" and "P") originated online as a troll effort, and continued for a bit. Then white supremacist groups started using it unironically, and dog whistle folks started using it in context and then calling others idiots and claiming it was a troll thing and not serious, usually defaulting to pictures of Steph Curry or Obama using the symbol - both of which predate its use as a hate symbol and ignores all context in which the symbol is used (Curry in calling plays on the court, Obama because it's historically been a fairly commonly used gesture to indicate "ok".

It's the kind of thing that's dishonestly weaponized because "it's a troll" when the context makes it clear when it's intended as a hate symbol, when it's intended as a troll, and when it's completely unrelated to any of that and simply a common gesture.

But if you're going to hang around with a group that houses a ton of white supremacists and you're flashing that symbol, it's difficult to argue its being used as originally intended/understood and is instead being used exactly for the purpose that it was created to "troll" for.

I vaguely recall that troll a few years back and while I would rather 4chan tolls not be a driving cultural force for society I admit that could well be the case.

I don't know if he is or isn't a white supremacist I'm hesitant to condemn him over what what might just be someone being edgy.

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Or what?

There's grounds to believe it. He was photographed hanging out with white supremacists before and after the shooting. He was counter-protesting a racial equality protest. Plenty of cause to justify it.

We don't have to prove it, and certainly not to your satisfaction. You get to just deal with it.



Literally no one in this entire 1000-page thread made any such post.

You're lying.



Kyle Rittenhouse is not a "child".

Guarding a building from arsonists isn't a counter protest and if it has become one we are truely fucked.

My fear with BLM is how much of an absolute boom it's been to radical racial elements. You have riots that happen like clock work usually from a justified shooting that police are hesitant to interfere in or disburse. You can argue that it is fringe elements that are being bad actors but it honestly doesn't matter.

People are going to look towards those willing to defend. If the police wont vigilante groups will become increasingly common and we might not see the heroic self restraint of rittenhouse and innocent people might be injured or killed. I would rather children not be the ones protecting property I rather the police be mobilized and if that proves inefficient military elements.

[Edge-]

Guarding a building from arsonists isn't a counter protest and if it has become one we are truely fucked.

Yo, if I show up to a business, armed, and tell them I'm "guarding" their business without being asked...am I? Or am I just an armed vigilante who wants to be Paul Kersey?

My fear with BLM is how much of an absolute boom it's been to radical racial elements.

You mean like the boogaloo boi that murdered a cop and a federal agent in an attempt to start a "race war"? Or the alt-right/boogaloo bois that were the ones actually shooting at some of the police stations and blaming it on BLM?

You have riots that happen like clock work usually from a justified shooting that police are hesitant to interfere in or disburse.

And in "things not happening", because none of this is happening.

People are going to look towards those willing to defend.

So why do we have police? Just let everyone form private militia/security forces and let's acknowledge we're a failed state.

If the police wont vigilante groups will become increasingly common and we might not see the heroic self restraint of rittenhouse and innocent people might be injured or killed.

And now we're just advocating for being a failed state.

I would rather children not be the ones protecting property I rather the police be mobilized and if that proves inefficient military elements.

I would rather armed whackos not play Paul Kersey in general and simply let the cops do their jobs, since we have multiple example of "good guys with a gun" being misidentified by cops as the "bad guy with a guy" because live shooter situations are dangerous, confusing, and fast.

[Endus]

Guarding a building from arsonists isn't a counter protest and if it has become one we are truely fucked.

The building no one asked them to guard?

They weren't there to protect shit. They were there to present an armed belligerent threat to protesters.

Let's see; who else wanted special considerations for the "protection" they forced on business owners without request?

My fear with BLM is how much of an absolute boom it's been to radical racial elements.

"I don't like BLM because black people being treated as people, that's so radical".

You have riots that happen like clock work usually from a justified shooting that police are hesitant to interfere in or disburse.

Literally false. Practically zero rioting, on average. The vast majority of violence at BLM protests that summer was from A> police, using unwarranted force, B> right-wing agitators, or C> criminals using the protests as a cover for crimes, or committing crimes that just by chance happened nearby. Nearly zero violence initiated by BLM protesters.

You can argue that it is fringe elements that are being bad actors but it honestly doesn't matter.

Most of the bad actors were never part of BLM. Of the few exceptions, yeah, we're talking a few out of millions. Obviously a fringe.

People are going to look towards those willing to defend.

Didn't work out that way in the Civil Rights Movement, with people trying to "defend" white buses from black people sitting in the front, or white folks trying to "defend" their white schools from desegregation by attacking black children.

If the police wont vigilante groups will become increasingly common and we might not see the heroic self restraint of rittenhouse and innocent people might be injured or killed.

This is just a threat. Literally, a "give the white supremacists what they want or they'll kill more innocent people". Fuck that; they're the criminals. Arrest the vigilantes. They're the fucking problem, here.

I would rather children not be the ones protecting property I rather the police be mobilized and if that proves inefficient military elements.

Attitudes shared by, say, the Chinese Government all the way back through Tiananmen Square. Definitely shows which side you're favoring.

[Kathandira]

Yo, if I show up to a business, armed, and tell them I'm "guarding" their business without being asked...am I? Or am I just an armed vigilante who wants to be Paul Kersey?



You mean like the boogaloo boi that murdered a cop and a federal agent in an attempt to start a "race war"? Or the alt-right/boogaloo bois that were the ones actually shooting at some of the police stations and blaming it on BLM?



And in "things not happening", because none of this is happening.



So why do we have police? Just let everyone form private militia/security forces and let's acknowledge we're a failed state.



And now we're just advocating for being a failed state.



I would rather armed whackos not play Paul Kersey in general and simply let the cops do their jobs, since we have multiple example of "good guys with a gun" being misidentified by cops as the "bad guy with a guy" because live shooter situations are dangerous, confusing, and fast.

Edge, I owe you a drink one day lol. You save me so much typing every day.

[Chipped coin]

Yo, if I show up to a business, armed, and tell them I'm "guarding" their business without being asked...am I? Or am I just an armed vigilante who wants to be Paul Kersey?



You mean like the boogaloo boi that murdered a cop and a federal agent in an attempt to start a "race war"? Or the alt-right/boogaloo bois that were the ones actually shooting at some of the police stations and blaming it on BLM?



And in "things not happening", because none of this is happening.



So why do we have police? Just let everyone form private militia/security forces and let's acknowledge we're a failed state.



And now we're just advocating for being a failed state.



I would rather armed whackos not play Paul Kersey in general and simply let the cops do their jobs, since we have multiple example of "good guys with a gun" being misidentified by cops as the "bad guy with a guy" because live shooter situations are dangerous, confusing, and fast.

I kind of hate point form but will answer it in order the best I can from what I know and what I assume will try to be clear on both.

If we are talking about rittenhouse he was asked. That said you can argue he wasn't qualified and I would agree he shouldn't of gone there. That doesn't defeat his right to self defense but it wasn't his property to defend. I don't know about the boogola boys. The last I heard of them was as a 4chan troll around the time of the ok symbol. I don't doubt someone did something terrible claiming to be a part of the group. I just know if they are an actual entity or just a lone nut.

I see the police as being vital but I don't support how they are ordered to handle blm with kids gloves even when looting and arson becomes rampant. I would almost be willing to allow police to bypass elected officials when it comes to action but that is an extremely dangerous road to go down.

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The building no one asked them to guard?

They weren't there to protect shit. They were there to present an armed belligerent threat to protesters.

Let's see; who else wanted special considerations for the "protection" they forced on business owners without request?



"I don't like BLM because black people being treated as people, that's so radical".



Literally false. Practically zero rioting, on average. The vast majority of violence at BLM protests that summer was from A> police, using unwarranted force, B> right-wing agitators, or C> criminals using the protests as a cover for crimes, or committing crimes that just by chance happened nearby. Nearly zero violence initiated by BLM protesters.



Most of the bad actors were never part of BLM. Of the few exceptions, yeah, we're talking a few out of millions. Obviously a fringe.



Didn't work out that way in the Civil Rights Movement, with people trying to "defend" white buses from black people sitting in the front, or white folks trying to "defend" their white schools from desegregation by attacking black children.



This is just a threat. Literally, a "give the white supremacists what they want or they'll kill more innocent people". Fuck that; they're the criminals. Arrest the vigilantes. They're the fucking problem, here.



Attitudes shared by, say, the Chinese Government all the way back through Tiananmen Square. Definitely shows which side you're favoring.

They were asked to. I can't imagine a world where they were not to it was painful clear the owners commited perjury on the stand. That said I don't believe citizens should be able to be deputized to protect private interests. They should of hired a professional security firm.

We are not going to argue if there is violence or not at BLM riots with multiple burned out building from arson, looted stores,and police reports. You can expose how fiery but peaceful the events are but I doubt anyone at this point is going to bother engaging you seriously. I am not saying what they are doing is morally right but if you put someone in a position where one group wants to harm them be that with violence,theft, or destruction of property they are going to turn towards those offering protection favorably. I would rather that be the police myself but the old saying any port in a storm will ring true to people.

[Endus]

I kind of hate point form but will answer it in order the best I can from what I know and what I assume will try to be clear on both.

To be clear, people like Edge and myself go point-by-point because it's an attempt to get you to support any of your several claims, independently, rather than just spamming a bunch of nonsense and hoping we try to treat it as some organic whole, which it isn't.

If we are talking about rittenhouse he was asked.

That's a lie. We know he was not asked. The business owner testified he made no such request, of anyone, let alone Rittenhouse, and there was no evidence of any such agreement provided at any time by the defense team. No texts, no e-mails, nothing. Literally nothing supports that claim, and we have direct testimony by the owner contradicting it.

That doesn't defeat his right to self defense but it wasn't his property to defend.[/quote]

Literally no one in this entire thread has contested that Rittenhouse had the right to self defense. You're attacking a straw man.

I don't know about the boogola boys. The last I heard of them was as a 4chan troll around the time of the ok symbol. I don't doubt someone did something terrible claiming to be a part of the group. I just know if they are an actual entity or just a lone nut.

Admitting you're poorly informed about the circumstances is certainly a . . . way to go. I guess. If you don't know the basics, why should we take you seriously about anything?

I see the police as being vital but I don't support how they are ordered to handle blm with kids gloves even when looting and arson becomes rampant.

This is another lie. This is not happening. Why do you insist on making shit up?

[Edge-]

If we are talking about rittenhouse he was asked.

Again, there's zero evidence the owners asked literally anyone to come to their shop. We spent dozens of pages covering this, so unless you think the owners lied under oath and that Rittenhouse and crew were all too stupid to give the defense team text messages, call records, emails, or social media messages proving that they were asked, this is still 100% wrong.

That doesn't defeat his right to self defense but it wasn't his property to defend.

Irrelevant, since his multiple killings weren't a topic of your post or my response.

I don't know about the boogola boys.

It's amazing how much you seem to "know" about "the left" but how little you "know" about anyone on the right. I see this a lot, it's like, almost like it's an intentional thing.

They want to start a second Civil War in the US. They're far right fucks who hang around with militia and white supremacist groups. They're the ones responsible for more of the deadly violence and attempts to start racial conflicts during protests than any other group.

The last I heard of them was as a 4chan troll around the time of the ok symbol.

Because much of alt-right/far-right culture is formed on 4chin. Kekistan was formed there too. But they're a depressingly real thing, where grown-ass men do show up to protests in tacticool gear and Hawaiian shirts waiting for the Civil War Part Deux.

I don't doubt someone did something terrible claiming to be a part of the group.

1. Multiple-murder guy didn't "claim" to be a member, he is a member. And he was driven by another member. The connected on Facebook and chatted. This is all stuff that we know.

2. Other guys tried to hide because they were trying to start a race war by blaming violence on BLM. They were discovered, they didn't "claim" to be parts of those organizations, folks figured out they were by their own social media activity.

I see the police as being vital but I don't support how they are ordered to handle blm with kids gloves even when looting and arson becomes rampant.

Because this is not what they're "ordered" to do. It's a dishonest far-right talking point that's never had a shred of evidence behind it, especially when you look at how expansive police violence against law abiding, peaceful protesters was during the year of protests.

I guess the "Know-Nothing" party is attempting to make a serious comeback or something, because the number of folks who seem grossly uninformed/misinformed but think that they have informed opinions on topics continues to grow.

[Endus]

They were asked to. I can't imagine a world where they were not to it was painful clear the owners commited perjury on the stand.

No, this is you refusing to believe the facts, because you have a made-up story in your mind and you really like that delusional fantasy story.

There was never a single shred of evidence to support the claim that they were there to protect property. It was always a lie.

We are not going to argue if there is violence or not at BLM riots with multiple burned out building from arson, looted stores,and police reports. You can expose how fiery but peaceful the events are but I doubt anyone at this point is going to bother engaging you seriously.

I'll stick with the reality, which is that the vast majority of BLM protests were peaceful, and the majority that weren't the violence was not initiated by BLM protesters.

https://www.radcliffe.harvard.edu/ne...research-finds

You're trying to cherry pick this one situation and pretend it's somehow descriptive of the movement, rather than the outlier it was. And your only possible motive for shit like that is to attack basic racial equity as a concept.

[Kathandira]

I don't support how they are ordered to handle blm with kids gloves even when looting and arson becomes rampant.

In a Macro view, the 2020 protests were mostly non-violent, and peaceful. In a Micro view, the few situations that did get out of hand were not treated so kindly by police. And in most of those cases, it was instigated by the police.

The best example is in seattle where the worst of situations occurred. Protestors were sitting on the ground outside the police station. The police didn't like it, so they gassed them. I'd say employing harmful gas on a group of people sitting on the ground is not very 'kid glove'.

Years back, you may recall other protests where people were again, sitting peacefully, and an officer walked down the row of them pepper spraying them in the face.

Not sure what you consider kid gloves would be, but from what i've seen, it isn't what I would consider it to be.

[Edge-]

Not sure what you consider kid gloves would be, but from what i've seen, it isn't what I would consider it to be.

If we infer, "Cops not routinely being engaged in extrajudicial killings of people they don't like." seems to be "kid gloves".

Some people think Megacity 1 is what we should be aspiring to, and that Judge Dredd is a role model and not a symbol of a dystopic future.

[Orange Joe]

I vaguely recall that troll a few years back and while I would rather 4chan tolls not be a driving cultural force for society I admit that could well be the case.

I don't know if he is or isn't a white supremacist I'm hesitant to condemn him over what what might just be someone being edgy.

People who aren't racist aren't "edgy" with racism. People who are "edgy" with racism ARE racist.

[Chipped coin]

In a Macro view, the 2020 protests were mostly non-violent, and peaceful. In a Micro view, the few situations that did get out of hand were not treated so kindly by police. And in most of those cases, it was instigated by the police.

The best example is in seattle where the worst of situations occurred. Protestors were sitting on the ground outside the police station. The police didn't like it, so they gassed them. I'd say employing harmful gas on a group of people sitting on the ground is not very 'kid glove'.

Years back, you may recall other protests where people were again, sitting peacefully, and an officer walked down the row of them pepper spraying them in the face.

Not sure what you consider kid gloves would be, but from what i've seen, it isn't what I would consider it to be.

I vaguely recall the later though not enough to remember what the protest was about... I thought it was wall street or tuition? Now that doesn't excuse the actions of the officer of course but I don't think it is related.

[Endus]

I vaguely recall the later though not enough to remember what the protest was about... I thought it was wall street or tuition? Now that doesn't excuse the actions of the officer of course but I don't think it is related.

To the thread about police brutality?

And specifically about protests regarding police brutality and the police response to said protests?

It's obviously relevant. You're just deflecting.

[Chipped coin]

People who aren't racist aren't "edgy" with racism. People who are "edgy" with racism ARE racist.

I don't know if I agree with that. If you take the early 90s saying fuck it shit was enough to shock people. Now I would argue they are not even swear words. Now if you want to actually swear you call someone a faggot or the N word with a hard R. I think it is the zoomer version of being edgy myself but I could be out of touch with the kids.

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To the thread about police brutality?

And specifically about protests regarding police brutality and the police response to said protests?

It's obviously relevant. You're just deflecting.

I mean if you want me to agree that police brutality has always been a thing I'm not gonna argue with you I'm just going to agree. I suspect degree is where we would debate.

[Orange Joe]

I don't know if I agree with that. If you take the early 90s saying fuck it shit was enough to shock people. Now I would argue they are not even swear words. Now if you want to actually swear you call someone a faggot or the N word with a hard R. I think it is the zoomer version of being edgy myself but I could be out of touch with the kids.

This is so wrong and fucked up I don't even know how to respond.

First though as someone that was actually around in the 90's. That didn't shock anyone except the most staunch of Christians.

[Edge-]

I vaguely recall the later though not enough to remember what the protest was about... I thought it was wall street or tuition? Now that doesn't excuse the actions of the officer of course but I don't think it is related.

Are you confusing the protests over police accountability with the Occupy Wall Street movement? Because there's like...a decade between those two events, and they occurred for wildly different reasons. I'm not sure why you'd even think of Occupy Wall Street in this thread since it's not relevant to the topic of discussion.

[Ivanstone]

I don't know about the boogola boys. The last I heard of them was as a 4chan troll around the time of the ok symbol. I don't doubt someone did something terrible claiming to be a part of the group. I just know if they are an actual entity or just a lone nut.

They’re part of the alt right movement and generally believe in violence to perpetuate their beliefs. Incels hold up Elliot Rodgers as their saint. Boogaloos hold up Timothy McVeigh as theirs.

And yes certain individuals do commit real crimes:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_boogaloo_killings

[Endus]

This is so wrong and fucked up I don't even know how to respond.

First though as someone that was actually around in the 90's. That didn't shock anyone except the most staunch of Christians.

I grew up in the '80s. In Canada. "Fuck" and "shit" weren't shocking at all.

And people using racist/homophobic epithets in the '80s and '90s were racists or homophobes at the time. Doesn't matter if it was more common; that just means more people were openly racist/homophobic.