1. #261
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    There are so many sickening things about this, but the one that's currently running on a loop in my head is "Why didn't ANYONE, hearing that he was repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" and begging them, run over and push that asshole's knee off his neck?" Fuck. Run with your hands up. Prepare to be arrested for doing so. But fucking get that prick OFF the dude so he can fucking breathe. Put the phone down--or pass it off to a friend or other witness to be used as evidence--and HELP for fuck's sake.

    I get it. It's scary. Who knows what might happen to you if you interfere. But if you're just going to stand and watch as this happens LITERALLY RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU then who is going to save you when it's your turn?

    I HATE this reality.
    Cause that would be giving the cops a justifiable reason to shoot you.......
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  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I'm really confused, is there any particular reason to actually kneel on the neck as opposed to the shoulder?
    In theory, yes, the shoulder had more bond support, so it's less of a weak point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    The average (available) testosterone being higher is consistent with the fact that bone density and muscles are bigger. I wasn't strictly speaking of height if that's what you thought. But in that average, are you accounting for different health and diet from lower SES?



    Not sure. Racists are going to believe in things like "all X are Y" and think that average, population level phenotypic differences make entire other groups invalid or inhuman. They think that because we're different, that makes them deserve less rights.

    Look at it like this: I'm 6 foot 2. You're likely shorter than me. This does not make either of us a monster. It doesn't make you some kind of gremlin and it doesn't mean I'm a gigantic ape. I probably have stronger bones than you, but that doesn't make me a monster either. It just means physically it takes more to take me down. You can be a Bruce Lee but the odds are going to be against you (and I doubt police officers can be Bruce Lees, as awesome as that would be).

    Keep in mind, this is to support the push for police to have tazers, so as to deter excessive and lethal use of aggression and force on the broader scale (this particular incident looks like just a racist person). This would hopefully result in less cases of lethal outcomes (against any demographic background). I'm mindful of cases when tazing goes wrong, but I'd venture those negative consequences are less harmful than the current setup.
    As was stated, he allowed them to cuff him without incident. It was a single officer, they had a 20-second conversation, then the officer stood him up, turned him around, and cuffed him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Okay so then what is the objective criteria for deeming that a system is racist? If it's when "half of the people are racist" as you say then you need to go out and get that evidence to confirm it is true. The large majority of people in the LE system are not racist or problematic at all and the onus is on you to prove there needs to be systematic change.
    Why are you demanding objective criteria? Racism is nearly impossible to quantify, so you are simply being fucking absurd at this point.

    What you can see, is use of force by officers, based on race.

    https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

    Seriously, your attempts to defend racism are fucking pathetic.

  3. #263
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    As was stated, he allowed them to cuff him without incident. It was a single officer, they had a 20-second conversation, then the officer stood him up, turned him around, and cuffed him.
    So I have to ask. How did it go from calm and handcuffed to on the ground with a knee in his neck?
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  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    So I have to ask. How did it go from calm and handcuffed to on the ground with a knee in his neck?
    That, I do not know. I have not seen a video of the time between the two events. The murdering officer (that seems fitting) does not appear to have a body camera. I thought I saw one on the other officer, but I cannot get a good enough shot.

    They appear to be worn on the right shoulder in that department, but I thought I saw one center-chest on an officer.

    Edit: There is another video circulating showing officers supposedly dragging him out of a car, so I have no idea if either is actually genuine at this point.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2020-05-27 at 11:54 AM.

  5. #265
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    So I have to ask. How did it go from calm and handcuffed to on the ground with a knee in his neck?
    Well there is a picture of that cop circulating where he wears a "make America white again" baseball cap soooo ...
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Well there is a picture of that cop circulating where he wears a "make America white again" baseball cap soooo ...
    Is there evidence of this? That sounds very, very made up.

    Edit: I found a picture, supposedly with it saying "Make whites great again" on it. I have no idea if it's real, or not.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2020-05-27 at 11:50 AM.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Curious what that argument would be... I feel intent heavily influences morals, more so than the result.
    A man has died as a consequence of the actions - not merely inaction or negligence - of another man.

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    Some of those that work forces are the same that burn crosses.

    Incidentally, that phrase was Google's top suggestion for "some of". Could it be trending today?

  8. #268
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    This is a clear cut case of extreme abuse by the police. And those who are guilty of it should pay in every lawful way possible. They have been fired and now should be prosecuted.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    A man has died as a consequence of the actions - not merely inaction or negligence - of another man.

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    Some of those that work forces are the same that burn crosses.

    Incidentally, that phrase was Google's top suggestion for "some of". Could it be trending today?
    Not sure how this is an argument that there is no difference between murder and manslaughter from a moral/ethic perspective...
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  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    People were yelling to stop. People were close, and screaming at them to stop.

    This is a high-pressure situation, and these cops were clearly not being responsible. I don't blame anyone for not charging in to confront cops who clearly have no problem killing someone. What you were on that one night, was a singular witness.

    If you had tried to intervene physically (and in an aggressive fashion as you called for), then they could have easily killed you, and not only that, such a use of force would have easily been justified.
    It was the middle of the afternoon, not night and there were multiple witnesses, as I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Cause that would be giving the cops a justifiable reason to shoot you.......
    And again, they're not going to fire at a clearly unarmed white guy in the middle of broad daylight with a dozen people around to see. The use of deadly force is not authorized against unarmed offenders, which is why they carry less-than-lethal weapons like mace, sticks and tasers. They get away with shooting minorities because America is clearly FUCKED. See: the armed white gun nuts shouting directly in the faces of police officers INSIDE the government building "protesting" the lockdown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Is there evidence of this? That sounds very, very made up.

    Edit: I found a picture, supposedly with it saying "Make whites great again" on it. I have no idea if it's real, or not.
    I saw it on Twitter yesterday and it is supposedly NOT the same guy.
    Last edited by Benggaul; 2020-05-27 at 12:04 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    I would and have done. 20 years ago I was walking home and saw a cop beating the shit out of a homeless guy with his stick just inside the entrance to an alley while his partner stood there much like this situation. I jogged over with my hands clearly raised and visibly empty and yelled at him to stop. There were a few bystanders just watching because that's what people do, but this was before mobile phones were really a thing so there wasn't even any filming being done...just watching.

    I didn't have to push the guy off then, but I got their attention and he stopped beating on the dude to yell at me to get the fuck out of there, which I didn't do because I assumed he'd just start knocking the homeless guy around again. But me running in there and yelling was at least enough to get other people to start yelling at them to stop and eventually they picked up the other guy--who was already handcuffed--and put him in the back of their cruiser and drove off. I probably didn't save him from further hardships, but I at least ensured he wasn't going to be beaten to death in an alley.

    I would not have been able to live with myself if I had just passed by and let them keep doing this then and I wouldn't just stand and let it happen now. They're not going to open fire on a white guy in broad daylight with hands raised and empty. Tase me, likely. Arrested for obstructing them in their duty also likely, as well as assault on a police officer if I had actually touched one of them to get them to stop. But if I'm going to have to own up to "white privilege" I'm at least going to do some good with it. Mr. Floyd might still be alive if someone else there had also done so.
    You're describing the steps for suicide by cop, I don't care what color you are. If you got lucky once upon a time, great - I mean the probability might even be in your favor but a 60/40 or even 80/20 probability of surviving is too much risk for most people. It's not a reasonable expectation for a stranger to be so brave, especially in these times when it feels like it's more 80/20 you're gonna get shot than the other way around. That's not even accounting the risk of potentially going to jail by assaulting an officer.

    People did run toward these cops screaming at them and it changed nothing; not sure if you noticed but the guy with his knee on the victim actually drew a weapon at one point when someone ran up, and his buddy was running interference for him. It looks in this scenario like you're going to have to physically dislodge the officer to save this man's neck and that is running some serious risks assuming you can even get to him.

    Let's suppose you knock the cop off and save the guy's life... do you think the officer is getting prosecuted for anything if there is no death? You don't know that there is a high quality video of this event being taken, maybe there isn't one or maybe if the guy survives, no one cares - there's no news story, it's just another case of excessive force to add to the heap which exists in this country. The story is that a madman charged the police while they were doing their jobs, got tased and arrested. Or justifiably shot and killed (not saying I think it's justifiable, but I bet the system would). I'm not too familiar with the law as it would apply here but I suspect we're talking about a felony, so even a small amount of bad luck could leave you virtually unemployable. Maybe you're a person who doesn't have to worry about that, if so you're lucky.

    It's worth it if you can save someone's life, but that would be remarkably brave. It's the norm that most of us aren't that brave or willing to self-sacrifice for someone we don't know in a situation we barely understand.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    It was the middle of the afternoon, not night and there were multiple witnesses, as I said.



    And again, they're not going to fire at a clearly unarmed white guy in the middle of broad daylight with a dozen people around to see. They get away with doing that to minorities because America is clearly FUCKED. See: the armed white gun nuts shouting directly in the faces of police officers INSIDE the government building "protesting" the lockdown.
    Why the fuck wouldn't they fire on someone who does that? If you try to physically intervene on officers, while they are arresting a suspect, they are justified in using force against you, and considering your aggressive nature, and closing of distance, they would be justified in shooting your ass dead on the spot.

    Just. No.

    As you stated, there were people coming over, getting close-ish, and yelling at officers to stop. The officers didn't stop. If you get much closer, and try to physically intervene, you are in serious risk of losing your life. As for skin tone, whites are actually slightly more likely to be shot by officers. They are less likely to have all other forms of use of force used on them.

    https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

  13. #273
    Racist cop who murdered a black man. This is so far what all the evidence is leading to. As of right now yup this man needs to at least be arrested. The partner and all the other cops who showed up need to be put on unpaid leave until things can be processed. Now we still need to wait for the autopsy report for cause of death. If he died of another cause other than the knee he still needs to be charged with involuntary manslaughter for failure to render aid. This one because it involved a cuffed individual who became unconscious in custody in the hands of an officer they need to immediately detain the cop. This visually is getting worse and worse.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    It was the middle of the afternoon, not night and there were multiple witnesses, as I said.



    And again, they're not going to fire at a clearly unarmed white guy in the middle of broad daylight with a dozen people around to see. They get away with doing that to minorities because America is clearly FUCKED. See: the armed white gun nuts shouting directly in the faces of police officers INSIDE the government building "protesting" the lockdown.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I saw it on Twitter yesterday and it is supposedly NOT the same guy.
    Yeah, I doubt that the picture is legit the same guy.

  15. #275
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Is there evidence of this? That sounds very, very made up.

    Edit: I found a picture, supposedly with it saying "Make whites great again" on it. I have no idea if it's real, or not.
    Oh right, make whites great again ... well same thing anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  16. #276
    I don't even know what to say at this point that hasn't already been said ad nauseam.

    How many people of color have to be killed by law enforcement with "I can't breath" on their lips before we admit the problem is systemic.

    The usual suspects are already here of course making bullshit excuses, blaming the victim, denying the systemic nature of the problem etc.

    The solution is in training and top down enforced change in policing culture, police culture in the US has a massive problem with race and use of force, add to that the absolutely self evident problem with how they are trained.

    There is crime and law enforcement everywhere in the world...Yet somehow...in other comparable countries they manage not to murder people already in custody.

    It's a training and cultural problem. HOW IS THIS NOT SELF EVIDENT?

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Oh right, make whites great again ... well same thing anyway.
    I saw the picture, and I'm not buying it. There's a Facebook page bouncing around that clearly looks fake (posts are from late last night).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    I don't even know what to say at this point that hasn't already been said ad nauseam.

    How many people of color have to be killed by law enforcement with "I can't breath" on their lips before we admit the problem is systemic.

    The usual suspects are already here of course making bullshit excuses, blaming the victim, denying the systemic nature of the problem etc.

    The solution is in training and top down enforced change in policing culture, police culture in the US has a massive problem with race and use of force, add to that the absolutely self evident problem with how they are trained.

    There is crime and law enforcement everywhere in the world...Yet somehow...in other comparable countries they manage not to murder people already in custody.

    It's a training and cultural problem. HOW IS THIS NOT SELF EVIDENT?
    It is evident, but the people who are going out of their way to defend the cops on this, don't want the system to change. They love that the system has racial bias. You'll also note that those very same people are the Trump-supporting ethno-nationalists.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Why the fuck wouldn't they fire on someone who does that? If you try to physically intervene on officers, while they are arresting a suspect, they are justified in using force against you, and considering your aggressive nature, and closing of distance, they would be justified in shooting your ass dead on the spot.

    Just. No.
    They are justified in using force...which is NOT the same as using DEADLY force. They are NOT "justified" in "shooting your ass dead" in this instance, so sorry, you're wrong.

    I get that people are scared and finding an honest cop in the States seems to be a rare thing these days, but language like yours is what gives them more power than they actually have.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    They are justified in using force...which is NOT the same as using DEADLY force. They are NOT "justified" in "shooting your ass dead" in this instance, so sorry, you're wrong.

    I get that people are scared and finding an honest cop in the States seems to be a rare thing these days, but language like yours is what gives them more power than they actually have.
    If you charge a cop who is making an arrest, it'd be hard to get a prosecutor to press charges, much less convict him if he shot your ass dead. This is a high-pressure situation, and you are being very aggressive.

    Officers have very little time to react, and an officer could easily feel his life is in danger, if a stranger or mob of people is rushing him while he's otherwise occupied in an arrest. Now, I was never a cop, but I was in the marines. If someone had run up to me, while I was detaining an insurgent, there's a very good chance I would have drawn and fired. When you are otherwise engaged with a suspect, you are vulnerable. Sure, there may be another officer watching over the situation, but they also have multiple priorities, and you do not want to become the primary aggressor in a situation like that.

    Not wanting to be shot is a reasonable position to take for literally almost everyone. If you don't think you could get shot by doing that, then you are wrong.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    If you charge a cop who is making an arrest, it'd be hard to get a prosecutor to press charges, much less convict him if he shot your ass dead. This is a high-pressure situation, and you are being very aggressive.

    Officers have very little time to react, and an officer could easily feel his life is in danger, if a stranger or mob of people is rushing him while he's otherwise occupied in an arrest. Now, I was never a cop, but I was in the marines. If someone had run up to me, while I was detaining an insurgent, there's a very good chance I would have drawn and fired. When you are otherwise engaged with a suspect, you are vulnerable. Sure, there may be another officer watching over the situation, but they also have multiple priorities, and you do not want to become the primary aggressor in a situation like that.

    Not wanting to be shot is a reasonable position to take for literally almost everyone. If you don't think you could get shot by doing that, then you are wrong.
    None of which changes what I said. So there's that.

    It would be an unjustified mistake and it is certainly a risk, but let's not normalize the use of excessive force.
    Last edited by Benggaul; 2020-05-27 at 12:28 PM.

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