Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Dadwen]

No, I don't support broken windows policing.

Not sure why you think I said changes in Camden was a Failure I think the foot patrols was the one smartest thing they did over everything else *mix with the community (some news credit the almost doubling the police force too).

[eschatological]

In case you want to read further, the SPLC has a great piece on the mainstreaming of the whole idea that "blacks are just more criminal." This is still an assertion made today, despite being demonstrably false for decades. https://www.splcenter.org/20180614/b...ck-white-crime

My favorite quote:

By taking crime statistics at face value, Taylor made the same mistake Frederick Hoffman did in 1896: blaming higher rates of black crime on an innate black criminality, when in fact those disproportionate crime rates could be explained by poverty and related structural disadvantages. On average, African Americans were — and remain — far poorer and more likely to live in disadvantaged neighborhoods than whites. Concentrated poverty has a criminogenic effect: lack of access to jobs, increased idle time and poorer educational opportunities all increase one’s chances of engaging in criminal behavior, and the effect is the same for black and white people. One study, released three years before The Color of Crime, found that when sociologists controlled for structural disadvantages, there were no significant differences between crime rates in black and white communities.[59]

A 2014 Bureau of Justice Statistics study showed that persons from poor households experienced the highest rates of violent victimization, and that rates were consistent for both blacks and whites.[60] When sociologists asked “Is Poverty’s Detrimental Effect Race-Specific?” they found the answer was no: policies aimed at reducing poverty effectively reduced violent crime and the crime reduction rates were similar in both black and white neighborhoods, meaning it was poverty — rather than race — that contributed to the violent crime rate in the first place.[61]

Why do you think it is blacks tend to be more poor than whites? It couldn't possibly be a history of slavery into broken promises about their 40 acres and a mule. It couldn't be that they were forced into inner cities, and then those inner cities were defunded (for racist reasons) to the point of making them ghettos. It couldn't be that police then started on their racist "broken windows" policing that led to a surge of black men in jail for the past 50 years post Civil Rights. Oh, whatever could it be?!? My assumption is you'll argue something racist, that blacks are inherently inferior in some way, and thus "deserve" that poverty, and thus, deserve the higher crime rates.

[Dadwen]

Camden used to have their own police.
Now it's about the whole county.

In the 70s they became the organized criminal element...and after the 4th or 5th mayor got indicted the state police took over in for a few years.

Court cases went up too, if it was just the police rezone should it have shot up too?

[Egomaniac]

Not sure why you think I said changes in Camden was a Failure I think the foot patrols was the one smartest thing they did over everything else *mix with the community (some news credit the almost doubling the police force too).

I was just saying it wasn't right to link the increases in fines for petty offenses and what not to Defunding Police. I was saying it's an example of what can happen when ANY police force switches to a "Broken Windows" Policy. New York City had the same kind of policy and that's what led to "Stop and frisk"

[Dadwen]

I was just saying it wasn't right to link the increases in fines for petty offenses and what not to Defunding Police. I was saying it's an example of what can happen when ANY police force switches to a "Broken Windows" Policy. New York City had the same kind of policy and that's what led to "Stop and frisk"

I was referencing when a force goes from the options of warnings to just giving them out for every petty thing. *the whole "defund" thing is misleading anyway, which is kinda worth making fun of that part at least (I mostly used it because it points to what Camden is known for), seems it was a more of a union breaker thing than a defund thing anyways.

[Egomaniac]

I was referencing when a force goes from the options of warnings to just giving them out for every petty thing. *the whole "defund" thing is misleading anyway, which is kinda worth making fun of that part at least (I mostly used it because it points to what Camden is known for), seems it was a more of a union breaker thing than a defund thing anyways.

And I was just pointing out that linking the two things together isn't quite accurate. Your original post did say "Go full Camdem NJ after the Defund the Police thing". Which does, intentionally or not, link those things together.

I'm just making sure the line is drawn between "Defund the Police" and "That means you get ticketed for every single thing".

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well the "broken windows" is what they did and defund the police is what they are know for.... so both seems to fit when I was referencing them.

What I am getting at is that "Defund the police" does not mean "Broken Windows". I'm making sure there is a clear distinction between those two concepts. You are trying to blur the line between them.

[Dadwen]

And I was just pointing out that linking the two things together isn't quite accurate. Your original post did say "Go full Camdem NJ after the Defund the Police thing". Which does, intentionally or not, link those things together.

I'm just making sure the line is drawn between "Defund the Police" and "That means you get ticketed for every single thing".

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What I am getting at is that "Defund the police" does not mean "Broken Windows". I'm making sure there is a clear distinction between those two concepts. You are trying to blur the line between them.

I deleted that post is not worth getting over a long debate for just that, I just used it to ref them...

[Egomaniac]

I deleted that post is not worth getting over a long debate for just that, I just used it to ref them...

And, Like i have been saying, it isn't right to link "Defund the police" with "no more warnings for petty violations". That's an example of "Broken Windows". It doesn't have to be a long debate. You brought up the increased enforcement of petty violations in relation to what happened when Camdem defunded their police department. It was, intentionally or not, misleading.

[Milchshake]

Good local news.
King County Labor Council expels Seattle police union.

The vote comes two weeks after the council, an affiliate of the national AFL-CIO, passed a resolution calling on SPOG to acknowledge and address racism within its ranks and law enforcement more generally, and to commit to negotiating collective bargaining agreements that do not evade accountability.

Now do King County Police Officer's Guild.

[Doctor Amadeus]

When it came to George Floyd the police were clearly in the wrong as per usual when it comes to cases I have seen as of recent. However the most recent incident I am sorry to say is different.

Are these cops racist? Maybe

But Rayshard Brooks was in the wrong, you absolutely can not ever grab a cops gun, flee then point a weapon at the police. Should they could they have done something different to deescalate? That is a call I can't make not being in their shoes.

I think they should, and racist undertones were there, however Yeah you can't ever do this shit, and the question becomes well he was fleeing so what danger was he.


Well he was a suspect, who was questionable at the time, running around after he tackled cops, stole a tazer and could have used that weapon for god knows what.



That being said, the cops walking out and doing this #WhiteStrike #BluFlu nonsense have as much to do with that as people committing riots during the protest after George Floyds death.

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In case you want to read further, the SPLC has a great piece on the mainstreaming of the whole idea that "blacks are just more criminal." This is still an assertion made today, despite being demonstrably false for decades. https://www.splcenter.org/20180614/b...ck-white-crime

My favorite quote:



Why do you think it is blacks tend to be more poor than whites? It couldn't possibly be a history of slavery into broken promises about their 40 acres and a mule. It couldn't be that they were forced into inner cities, and then those inner cities were defunded (for racist reasons) to the point of making them ghettos. It couldn't be that police then started on their racist "broken windows" policing that led to a surge of black men in jail for the past 50 years post Civil Rights. Oh, whatever could it be?!? My assumption is you'll argue something racist, that blacks are inherently inferior in some way, and thus "deserve" that poverty, and thus, deserve the higher crime rates.

I think this is spot on. I think the problem with conflating one persons or people struggle with another, what often gets over looked are the nuances and differences that account for why we get the results we get.

Statistics and research of the scientific scope are great and all for trying to figure out the "What" however the "Why" isn't as clear and it's easy to cherry pick, because confirmation bias is for sure a thing.


A person can apply understanding for one group, and non when it comes to another because of bias.

[Themius]

When it came to George Floyd the police were clearly in the wrong as per usual when it comes to cases I have seen as of recent. However the most recent incident I am sorry to say is different.

Are these cops racist? Maybe

But Rayshard Brooks was in the wrong, you absolutely can not ever grab a cops gun, flee then point a weapon at the police. Should they could they have done something different to deescalate? That is a call I can't make not being in their shoes.

I think they should, and racist undertones were there, however Yeah you can't ever do this shit, and the question becomes well he was fleeing so what danger was he.


Well he was a suspect, who was questionable at the time, running around after he tackled cops, stole a tazer and could have used that weapon for god knows what.



That being said, the cops walking out and doing this #WhiteStrike #BluFlu nonsense have as much to do with that as people committing riots during the protest after George Floyds death.

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I think this is spot on. I think the problem with conflating one persons or people struggle with another, what often gets over looked are the nuances and differences that account for why we get the results we get.

Statistics and research of the scientific scope are great and all for trying to figure out the "What" however the "Why" isn't as clear and it's easy to cherry pick, because confirmation bias is for sure a thing.


A person can apply understanding for one group, and non when it comes to another because of bias.

Spent taser...

[Levelfive]

When it came to George Floyd the police were clearly in the wrong as per usual when it comes to cases I have seen as of recent. However the most recent incident I am sorry to say is different.

Are these cops racist? Maybe

But Rayshard Brooks was in the wrong, you absolutely can not ever grab a cops gun, flee then point a weapon at the police. Should they could they have done something different to deescalate? That is a call I can't make not being in their shoes.

I think they should, and racist undertones were there, however Yeah you can't ever do this shit, and the question becomes well he was fleeing so what danger was he.


Well he was a suspect, who was questionable at the time, running around after he tackled cops, stole a tazer and could have used that weapon for god knows what.



That being said, the cops walking out and doing this #WhiteStrike #BluFlu nonsense have as much to do with that as people committing riots during the protest after George Floyds death.

It wasn't a gun, it was a taser, and it seems the cop knew that both charges had been spent. I think we have gotten so numb to police killing people that we're willing to excuse a cop shooting a fleeing, unarmed suspect in the back, twice, for being a hassle.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Spent taser...

Yeah but you can never ever do that, if I struggled with a cop and then grabbed anything from his belt then proceeded to run away or attack him with whatever. I would fully expect to be shot and killed.

Was the arrest the wrong call? Maybe Was racism involved? Yes.


but this was a stupid thing for Rayshard Brooks to have done. This particular incident is a Policy issue not a Police Issue

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It wasn't a gun, it was a taser, and it seems the cop knew that both charges had been spent. I think we have gotten so numb to police killing people that we're willing to excuse a cop shooting a fleeing, unarmed suspect in the back, twice, for being a hassle.

Well taser can be lethal especially according to their own justice department where this happened. If he was simply fleeing you might have a point, but his behavior was erratic, and over reaction, and the police acted accordingly.


You or Me or anyone can never, ever do this. Rayshard Brooks life wasn't threatened he was not being abused he was being arrested and that was the cops call to make. Suing the ever loving shit out of them would and could have been his call. This isn't how you do it.

[Shadowferal]

That being said, the cops walking out and doing this #WhiteStrike #BluFlu nonsense have as much to do with that as people committing riots during the protest after George Floyds death.

Sometimes you have to wonder:

FBI to charge protester with totching cop cars

masked woman with a peace sign tattoo and wearing a light blue T-shirt setting a police SUV ablaze.

[Levelfive]

Yeah but you can never ever do that, if I struggled with a cop and then grabbed anything from his belt then proceeded to run away or attack him with whatever. I would fully expect to be shot and killed.

What makes it ok for cops to shoot and kill people who pose no threat?

[Mayhem]

What makes it ok for cops to shoot and kill people who pose no threat?

Very fragile egos.

[Levelfive]

Well taser can be lethal especially according to their own justice department where this happened. If he was simply fleeing you might have a point, but his behavior was erratic, and over reaction, and the police acted accordingly.


You or Me or anyone can never, ever do this. Rayshard Brooks life wasn't threatened he was not being abused he was being arrested and that was the cops call to make. Suing the ever loving shit out of them would and could have been his call. This isn't how you do it.

Again, according to the DA the cop knew the taser was spent when he shot him twice in the back. So he was simply fleeing.

[Themius]

Yeah but you can never ever do that, if I struggled with a cop and then grabbed anything from his belt then proceeded to run away or attack him with whatever. I would fully expect to be shot and killed.

Was the arrest the wrong call? Maybe Was racism involved? Yes.


but this was a stupid thing for Rayshard Brooks to have done. This particular incident is a Policy issue not a Police Issue

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Well taser can be lethal especially according to their own justice department where this happened. If he was simply fleeing you might have a point, but his behavior was erratic, and over reaction, and the police acted accordingly.


You or Me or anyone can never, ever do this. Rayshard Brooks life wasn't threatened he was not being abused he was being arrested and that was the cops call to make. Suing the ever loving shit out of them would and could have been his call. This isn't how you do it.

If you grabbed a flashlight you'd expect to be shot and killed? Escape doesn't put the officer or anyone else in direct danger if the aim to is... escape hence run away. Which means shooting a person in the back is not justified.

[Levelfive]

Very fragile egos.

Agreed.

/10 char

Oh, and the police unions. And a public with their own very fragile egos eager to blame the victims in order to explain it away.

[Doctor Amadeus]

What makes it ok for cops to shoot and kill people who pose no threat?

No, but then again I am not a cop, and in the seconds it takes to make those kinds of decisions trained or not, it comes down to a judgement. You and I can differ as to how we think they should have acted. Maybe he should or shouldn't be a cop.

But the policy is if someone is acting like Rayshard Brooks, who is carrying a weapon that the officer feels could be used against him or someone else, he has the right to use lethal force.

You want to argue about that, fine, I am all ears, but this cop is following protocol, so as I said this incident was policy NOT a Police officer.


Everything up to the shooting, I would have done differently, however if he did what he did, and in that moment I thought he would or could hurt me or someone else, I would have shot and killed him.

You can't ever do this shit, EVER Rayshard Brooks behavior was way way way out of bounds.

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Again, according to the DA the cop knew the taser was spent when he shot him twice in the back. So he was simply fleeing.

Ok very important piece of information, it for sure does make a difference.