1. #8901
    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    The camo they are in is typically jungle camo not urban camo. Plus it's them acting as military not as a police force that is the point.

    Idk if you are serious about the cosplay part, but if so take a chill. Idk how you are that triggered by a mere mention. Here I will help you out. The police are playing dress-up to pretend they are in the military. See I didn't say cosplay.
    I'm totally chill, I just find the processes of how new uses for words are created, and this is a rather surreal one. As to why they wear that camo thing, I don't know, though I doubt it's out of a shared hive-minded military fetish, and it's still better than nothing in urban guerrilla/combat contexts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Are y'all seriously complaining more about the term cosplay being used "in vain" rather than like actual gestapo on the streets?

    And it helps in urban combat contexts, these are supposed to be police.
    See above for the first question. As to the other point, I could ask you in return if you really think that them being in a military uniform instead of a police one would make that much of a difference. I think that's even more futile to discuss how they're dressed than the terminology. Or perhaps not - anti-riot police uniforms are scarier than military ones. They're designed to be scary in order to disperse the crowds. I've been charged once (by accident I might add, I exited from the wrong subway exit and found myself getting charged), the whole "black wall of doom marching towards you" and banging on their shields is really scary. So yeah, the more I think seriously of it, the more I'm convinced that riot control uniforms are more intimidating than guys in camo w/o shields to bang on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  2. #8902
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    See above for the first question. As to the other point, I could ask you in return if you really think that them being in a military uniform instead of a police one would make that much of a difference.
    Yes.

    Police showing up to a protest dressed for a riot or in fatigues has long been known to escalate tensions making riots more likely.

    I think that's even more futile to discuss how they're dressed than the terminology. Or perhaps not - anti-riot police uniforms are scarier than military ones. They're designed to be scary in order to disperse the crowds. I've been charged once (by accident I might add, I exited from the wrong subway exit and found myself getting charged), the whole "black wall of doom marching towards you" and banging on their shields is really scary. So yeah, the more I think seriously of it, the more I'm convinced that riot control uniforms are more intimidating than guys in camo w/o shields to bang on.
    "Riot control police are more intimidating than police in camo" is not relevant because BOTH aggravate tensions with the public. Christ and Allah.

    I changed my mind, go back to complaining about people calling DHS army cosplayers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  3. #8903
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    So the secret police has now also been deployed in Chicago? Sounds like fun.

  4. #8904
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yes.

    Police showing up to a protest dressed for a riot or in fatigues has long been known to escalate tensions making riots more likely.



    "Riot control police are more intimidating than police in camo" is not relevant because BOTH aggravate tensions with the public. Christ and Allah.

    I changed my mind, go back to complaining about people calling DHS army cosplayers.
    Yeha, I question the merit of those "several studies" which "have found that citizens perceive police officers clad in traditional black or blue as friendlier and more honest than those wearing military-style fatigues that are green or camouflage" - I'm just as comfortable in interacting with unarmed police and military personnel in full gear (which we've had patrolling the streets for years now due to terror attacks), and nobody feels threatened by them. In fact, local polling shows that people want more military patrols (yes, I realize that's an entirely different context, there's no guerrilla here after all). Also from the article, I'd expect people in riot control gear to be trained to handle riots, whereas a "non-threatening", "normal looking" cops could be seen as less competent and thus more likely to, say, panic and fire a live round in the crowd.

    And of course you'll realize that when people on the protesting side also get more aggressive and geared up, LE has no option but to resort to more adequate gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  5. #8905
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Are y'all seriously complaining more about the term cosplay being used "in vain" rather than like actual gestapo on the streets?

    And it helps in urban combat contexts, these are supposed to be police.
    Agree that is what that person is upset with.
    Democrats are the best! I will never ever question a Democrat again. I LOVE the Democrats!

  6. #8906
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    Yeha, I question the merit of those "several studies" which "have found that citizens perceive police officers clad in traditional black or blue as friendlier and more honest than those wearing military-style fatigues that are green or camouflage"
    Yeah, okay.

    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
    But yeah, @Paranoid Android is right - the tell was the getting miffed about speaking poorly of cosplayers rather than there being actual gestapo in Portland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  7. #8907
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yeah, okay.



    But yeah, @Paranoid Android is right - the tell was the getting miffed about speaking poorly of cosplayers rather than there being actual gestapo in Portland.
    Wow, what a solid comeback. You you ran out of articles citing more totally unbiased and trustworthy "studies" - I'm sold. And again, I'm not miffed, I'm amused - by seeing a term getting turned into a buzzword, and by you claiming that there's "actual gestapo" (sic) in Portland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  8. #8908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    Wow, what a solid comeback. You you ran out of articles citing more totally unbiased and trustworthy "studies" - I'm sold. And again, I'm not miffed, I'm amused - by seeing a term getting turned into a buzzword, and by you claiming that there's "actual gestapo" (sic) in Portland.
    Nah, I just stopped bothering looking for more when it became abundantly clear you were going to reject any evidence out of hand in favor of ancedotes based what you personally have observed and how you personally feel, which is that there isn't a problem. Because reasons. And yeah I was around for the "I'm not mad I was just trolling all along" phase of Reddit, too.

    Anyway, the one in which Trump regime forces in Portland have been using pepper spray against medical supplies to render them unusable by protestors.

    Reminder that violence against medical personnel and destruction of medical supplies is, in fact, a war crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #8909
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Completely disregarding someone as being pointless to talk to is not a "solid comeback". Nobody is interested in your witless exchanges.
    /s

  10. #8910
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Nah, I just stopped bothering looking for more when it became abundantly clear you were going to reject any evidence out of hand in favor of ancedotes based what you personally have observed and how you personally feel, which is that there isn't a problem. Because reasons. And yeah I was around for the "I'm not mad I was just trolling all along" phase of Reddit, too.

    Anyway, the one in which Trump regime forces in Portland have been using pepper spray against medical supplies to render them unusable by protestors.

    Reminder that violence against medical personnel and destruction of medical supplies is, in fact, a war crime.
    I'm not mad, and neither did I claim to be trolling, but I understand your need to put words in my mouth - your ultra-polemic narrative wouldn't hold, even in appearance, without that kind of expedient, or without unconfirmed Twitter posts from a guy who probably hallucinates Nazis everywhere given his handle, and ridiculous hyperboles ("gestapo", really).
    That wasn't an official "first aid tent" by the way, it was a makeshift installation set up by protesters with medical knowledge. I'm pretty sure there's a substantial legal difference from dispersing those and covering the Red Cross in pepper spray (which didn't happen). Needless to say, the reports about police targeting those "street medics" are unilateral and while I certainly wouldn't expect the police to admit to doing such a thing, I don't trust whatever comes out of the mouth of some randoms either. Give me irrefutable video proof that it happened as those people described it, and I might change my stance. Otherwise it's the word of a side against the other, and I'm not prone to blindly trust either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  11. #8911
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    I'm not mad, and neither did I claim to be trolling, but I understand your need to put words in my mouth - your ultra-polemic narrative wouldn't hold, even in appearance, without that kind of expedient, or without unconfirmed Twitter posts from a guy who probably hallucinates Nazis everywhere given his handle, and ridiculous hyperboles ("gestapo", really).
    That wasn't an official "first aid tent" by the way, it was a makeshift installation set up by protesters with medical knowledge. I'm pretty sure there's a substantial legal difference from dispersing those and covering the Red Cross in pepper spray (which didn't happen). Needless to say, the reports about police targeting those "street medics" are unilateral and while I certainly wouldn't expect the police to admit to doing such a thing, I don't trust whatever comes out of the mouth of some randoms either. Give me irrefutable video proof that it happened as those people described it, and I might change my stance. Otherwise it's the word of a side against the other, and I'm not prone to blindly trust either.
    Um... most hospital areas and medical tents are makeshift...there are few fucking "official" medic stations in unrest, yet it remains a war crime to attack them

    I don't think you're doing much critical thinking.

    Was it okay for Russia to bomb makeshift medical stations in Syria because they were only makeshift???
    Last edited by Themius; 2020-07-22 at 11:01 PM.

  12. #8912
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    I'm not mad, and neither did I claim to be trolling, but I understand your need to put words in my mouth - your ultra-polemic narrative wouldn't hold, even in appearance, without that kind of expedient, or without unconfirmed Twitter posts from a guy who probably hallucinates Nazis everywhere given his handle, and ridiculous hyperboles ("gestapo", really).
    I mean what else would you call police that keep their identities and operations a secret?

    That wasn't an official "first aid tent" by the way, it was a makeshift installation set up by protesters with medical knowledge. I'm pretty sure there's a substantial legal difference from dispersing those and covering the Red Cross in pepper spray (which didn't happen).
    Only that the latter is generally considered a war crime whereas the form is legally protected by virtue of the US' legalisation of police brutality.

    If you're seriously retreating back to "well it doesn't matter because it's legal" stance, you've already lost the argument. We get that fascism is usually legal in a fascist state.

    Needless to say, the reports about police targeting those "street medics" are unilateral and while I certainly wouldn't expect the police to admit to doing such a thing, I don't trust whatever comes out of the mouth of some randoms either. Give me irrefutable video proof that it happened as those people described it, and I might change my stance. Otherwise it's the word of a side against the other, and I'm not prone to blindly trust either.
    In which the chief of Asheville PD confirmed they destroyed water and medical supplies of protesters. Both are considered war crimes.

    The one in which police across the country have been targeting marked medical personnel pretty much across the country.

    Oh, you're also talking to one of those "protesters with medical knowledge" that got tear gassed, by the way. Mine was at Capitol Hill, while most of us were in scrubs to boot!

    My badge:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  13. #8913
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Um... most hospital areas and medical tents are makeshift...there are few fucking "official" medic stations in unrest, yet it remains a war crime to attack them

    I don't think you're doing much critical thinking.

    Was it okay for Russia to bomb makeshift medical stations in Syria because they were only makeshift???
    You have to be a medic to set up a medical station. A medical student or even just some random guy with basic medical knowledge doesn't qualify. Hell, I have first-aid knowledge and training, it came with from the instructor scuba diving license. Hardly makes me a medic. Also, are you seriously comparing urban guerrilla with the Syrian war? I mean, I shouldn't be surprised, there's people who literally see the Gestapo out there, but come on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I mean what else would you call police that keep their identities and operations a secret?



    Only that the latter is generally considered a war crime whereas the form is legally protected by virtue of the US' legalisation of police brutality.

    If you're seriously retreating back to "well it doesn't matter because it's legal" stance, you've already lost the argument. We get that fascism is usually legal in a fascist state.



    In which the chief of Asheville PD confirmed they destroyed water and medical supplies of protesters. Both are considered war crimes.

    The one in which police across the country have been targeting marked medical personnel pretty much across the country.

    Oh, you're also talking to one of those "protesters with medical knowledge" that got tear gassed, by the way. Mine was at Capitol Hill, while most of us were in scrubs to boot!

    My badge:

    First link:
    451: Unavailable - The page you are attempting to access is not available in your country. - can't be bothered to swap VPN node, sorry (is that Fox though?)
    Second link: regrettable stuff, but that's what happens when protests turn violent - or I might speculate, disregard any social distancing measures, how is that not concerning? Also, I recognize that picture of your badge, because you posted it in an instance in which you made an outlandish claim for a someone who's supposed to have medical training. Perhaps you're not concerned about this protests and the impact they'll have on COVID spread because, and I quote, "there are no 'COVID particles'"? Do you still maintain the view that there are no COVID particles, or did you go back on your medical books, the link I provided (which you conveniently ignored) in that thread, or even just wikipedia?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  14. #8914
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    You have to be a medic to set up a medical station. A medical student or even just some random guy with basic medical knowledge doesn't qualify. Hell, I have first-aid knowledge and training, it came with from the instructor scuba diving license. Hardly makes me a medic. Also, are you seriously comparing urban guerrilla with the Syrian war? I mean, I shouldn't be surprised, there's people who literally see the Gestapo out there, but come on.
    Gestapo is little more than secret police... a force of military that is unidentifiable and beholden to a few people. This falls under that... or are you not aware of reality right now?

    the situation in Syria is a domestic one. One with a government going after people who are rising up against that government.

    With is a protest but people rising up peacefully against their government? Let's recall how scandalised the world was when peaceful protest in Syria were met with violence.

  15. #8915
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Gestapo is little more than secret police... a force of military that is unidentifiable and beholden to a few people. This falls under that... or are you not aware of reality right now?

    the situation in Syria is a domestic one. One with a government going after people who are rising up against that government.

    With is a protest but people rising up peacefully against their government? Let's recall how scandalised the world was when peaceful protest in Syria were met with violence.
    I could ask of you the same. "Little more than secret police"? Oook, I believe we're done here. History lessons are in order it seems. In this case, too, wiki would suffice, but you're clearly unable to say anything without resorting to such hyperboles. Free hint: if the Gestapo was actually out there, you wouldn't be posting right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    It’s a Fox affiliate.

    From the link.
    Amusing he had to resort to a Fox affiliate. Thanks for the quote, it confirms what I thought was happening. I suppose I'll save the outrage for when official medics will be prevented from doing their job, seeing as how the protests didn't turn to be exactly peaceful.
    Last edited by Coolthulhu; 2020-07-22 at 11:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  16. #8916
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    I could ask of you the same. "Little more than secret police"? Oook, I believe we're done here. History lessons are in order it seems. In this case, too, wiki would suffice, but you're clearly unable to say anything without resorting to such hyperboles. Free hint: if the Gestapo was actually out there, you wouldn't be posting right now.
    You want to talk history and ignore the lead up.

    Toss less stones.

  17. #8917
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    I could ask of you the same. "Little more than secret police"?
    Armed men with covered faces in tactical gear rush up to you. They have no identifying insignia to let you know who they are, refuse to tell you who they are or who they work for, or why they're approaching you. They grab you, zip-tie your hands (or hold them behind your back), and march you to an unmarked van.

    Who are these people if not the "secret police"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    Oook, I believe we're done here. History lessons are in order it seems. In this case, too, wiki would suffice, but you're clearly unable to say anything without resorting to such hyperboles. Free hint: if the Gestapo was actually out there, you wouldn't be posting right now.
    Oh boy.

    The force was created by Hermann Göring in 1933 by combining the various security police agencies of Prussia into one organisation.
    DHS is combining the forces of CBP, ICE and other agencies who are deployed in Portland.

    On 20 April 1934, oversight of the Gestapo passed to Schutzstaffel (SS) national leader, Heinrich Himmler, who was also appointed Chief of German Police (Chef der Deutschen Polizei) by Hitler in 1936.
    DHS is currently run by multiple "acting" directors/deputies who have not been approved by the Senate as required, and they are currently in charge of a domestic federal police force. They are all hardcore Trump loyalists, and acting Director Wolf has openly discussed "proactive arrests", which blatantly violate the Fourth Amendment.

    I don't think you want the comparisons to continue, because they're not gonna look good for the Gestapo out there in Portland.

  18. #8918
    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    You want to talk history and ignore the lead up.

    Toss less stones.
    Throw less tones? Such as claiming that the Gestapo's out there and the US plunged into full-blown fascism? I believe that qualifies. Not only that, but if people actually believe it which seems to be the case in a number of posts, that's no longer hyperbolic language, that's buying into a literal ideology-driven conspiracy theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  19. #8919
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    Such as claiming that the Gestapo's out there and the US plunged into full-blown fascism?
    Is plunging*

    We're not there yet. Fascism rarely occurs overnight unless you elect a Republican Fascist Party like Italy did with Mussolini.

  20. #8920
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    I could ask of you the same. "Little more than secret police"? Oook, I believe we're done here. History lessons are in order it seems. In this case, too, wiki would suffice, but you're clearly unable to say anything without resorting to such hyperboles. Free hint: if the Gestapo was actually out there, you wouldn't be posting right now.
    History lessons are in order? That's hilarious, I take it you decided to ignore history. You decided to ignore the political landscape, and the laws, and the movement of all the pieces that culminated in the ultimate evil.
    The force was created by Hermann Göring in 1933 by combining the various security police agencies of Prussia into one organisation.
    In portland, we have a mishmash of various security agencies from the fed. all merged together into a single paramilitary under the direction of 1-2 people... did you skip this bit?

    It did not answer to judicial oversight. that was a major component. Tell me WHO THE FUCK IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OVERSIGHT of this paramilitary? Because it isn't Congress, it's some fucking guy appointed by some other guy.

    The Gestapo distinguished itself from other police in that it functioned not just as a police force but as a force inseparable from the Nazi Party. It had a mandate to operate outside the law or judicial review to combat legal activity deemed unacceptable by the Party.
    So we have a force of secret police being wielded by 1-2 people with the president directing them to invade cities that are democrat and he doesn't like because they do not align with republican values.

    One of the most effective weapons of the Gestapo was Schutzhaft or “protective custody.” Unlike its use in democratic countries, where a witness or other individual is taken into custody to protect them from a real threat, the Nazis used the concept very differently. Because enemies of the state were so hated, the Nazis argued, it was necessary to confine them in protective custody to protect them from the righteous anger of good German citizens.
    So our paramilitary is kidnapping people off the streets, not arresting them for anything.. and detaining them... because... of wrong think and their loss told them to. And trump says it is to protect Portland where the citizens and mayor want them out.


    Tell me do you consider the lead up to the formation or action to be part of the thing or not?

    Because this is the lead up to it

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