1. #13821
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I would like to say Thank you for expressing why exactly Kyle's case is not an open and shut self defense claim people think it is. People don't understand that self defense is a claim and needs to be proven in a court of law where it will be challenged by the facts of the case.
    It's an affirmative defense. You need to prove it was self defense. Even if you provide evidence that "maybe it was self defense, maybe not, can't really tell", that means you get convicted for first degree murder because you did not establish your defense claim.

    People seem be play-acting as Michael Scott and think if they just shout "SELF DEFENSE" super loud, they have declared it and the courts must presume it to be true. That's not how this works.

  2. #13822
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I think the problem is that we have this:

    Saw that in the latest JO segment. The fact he is still holding his job as a police sheriff is the dead canary in a coal mine. Clear cut racists like him have zero business in law enforcement.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  3. #13823
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Eyewitness testimony states that Rittenhouse was handling his weapon incompetently and putting people at risk, which would have justified someone disarming him.
    At no point was Rittenhouse facing threat of imminent death or great bodily harm, with Rosenbaum. Lethal force in self defense could not be justified there.
    The second incident involved weapons, but that was a case of bystanders trying to take down an active shooter; they are the ones acting in defense of themselves and others, not Rittenhouse.

    Claiming he got the gun from a friend is a major issue, since that makes his friend an accessory, and doesn't mean Rittenhouse was entitled to carry the weapon.

    Again; if this was self defense, Rittenhouse was obliged to immediately turn himself in to the police. If the riot cops are too busy to take his statement and whatnot, he was obliged to go to the local PD. He did not do this. He fled the State, instead. That's a clear demonstration of mens rea, especially when after he'd killed Rosenbaum, he called a friend (not the police) and is clearly audible on video saying he'd just killed someone, so he can't even claim he didn't know what he'd done until later.

    He killed two people and maimed a third and fled the scene and the State. You don't do that without an understanding that you're guilty of a crime. This alone is likely all that needs to be cited in court to shut down any claim of self defense.
    Twist it how you will, there's videos clearly demonstrating the events unfold from how he put out a fire in a dumpster being lit by a mob with an extinguisher, whom directed their sights on him where Rosenbaum, who was earlier aggressively taunting Kyle to shoot him, started to charge at him while Kyle was trying to get away (with reports someone fired at him I might add)... throwing stuff at him, till Kyle was cornered where upon Rosenbaum tried to take his gun. Can you honestly say with a straight face that you would give up your firearm to someone, with a mob behind him, beating you down scuffling for it and think your life isn't in danger?

    Literally all his shots were when he couldn't get away, from someone swinging a skateboard to his head, someone trying to head stomp him, and someone drawing a pistol on him... yet the media has painted him as going on a "rampage". All those videos quickly disprove that. He wasn't shooting indiscriminately.

  4. #13824
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Twist it how you will, there's videos clearly demonstrating the events unfold from how he put out a fire in a dumpster


    That doesn't appear to be Rittenhouse? Hard to tell if it's him due to the darkness, but the image doesn't name him in the article.
    Last edited by Edge-; 2020-09-02 at 06:59 PM.

  5. #13825
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Twist it how you will, there's videos clearly demonstrating the events unfold from how he put out a fire in a dumpster being lit by a mob with an extinguisher, whom directed their sights on him where Rosenbaum, who was earlier aggressively taunting Kyle to shoot him, started to charge at him while Kyle was trying to get away (with reports someone fired at him I might add)... throwing stuff at him, till Kyle was cornered where upon Rosenbaum tried to take his gun. Can you honestly say with a straight face that you would give up your firearm to someone, with a mob behind him, beating you down scuffling for it and think your life isn't in danger?

    Literally all his shots were when he couldn't get away, from someone swinging a skateboard to his head, someone trying to head stomp him, and someone drawing a pistol on him... yet the media has painted him as going on a "rampage". All those videos quickly disprove that.
    Because simply any fictional version of events you have of him goes out the window when you consider he came from out of state, armed himself to be there voluntarily. There's also the video of him holding his weapon bragging that "we don't do non lethal". He inserted himself in any situation you can spin off, it's not the media it's Rittenhouse. He lost any claim of being a victim the second he went to another state, he came looking for a fight in his own words.

  6. #13826
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Besides the videos and the dead bodies you know small details.
    They are already included.

  7. #13827
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Twist it how you will, there's videos clearly demonstrating the events unfold from how he put out a fire in a dumpster being lit by a mob with an extinguisher, whom directed their sights on him where Rosenbaum, who was earlier aggressively taunting Kyle to shoot him, started to charge at him while Kyle was trying to get away (with reports someone fired at him I might add)... throwing stuff at him, till Kyle was cornered where upon Rosenbaum tried to take his gun. Can you honestly say with a straight face that you would give up your firearm to someone, with a mob behind him, beating you down scuffling for it and think your life isn't in danger?

    Literally all his shots were when he couldn't get away, from someone swinging a skateboard to his head, someone trying to head stomp him, and someone drawing a pistol on him... yet the media has painted him as going on a "rampage". All those videos quickly disprove that. He wasn't shooting indiscriminately.
    First words: Twist it how you will.

    Immediate follow up: Twisting the whole event.

    All I read is a bunch of good guys, one with a skate board,one with a gun, trying to stop a bad guy with a gun.

  8. #13828
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    They are already included.
    No they are not including the video of him saying he doesn't do non lethal.

  9. #13829
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post


    That doesn't appear to be Rittenhouse?
    Hmm, I might be mistaken. I did see a video of Kyle running with a extinguisher though. Doesn't change the fact Rosenbaum was charging at him, throwing objects, and trying to wrestle for the gun in a threatening manner.

  10. #13830
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Twist it how you will, there's videos clearly demonstrating the events unfold from how he put out a fire in a dumpster being lit by a mob with an extinguisher, whom directed their sights on him where Rosenbaum, who was earlier aggressively taunting Kyle to shoot him, started to charge at him while Kyle was trying to get away (with reports someone fired at him I might add)... throwing stuff at him, till Kyle was cornered where upon Rosenbaum tried to take his gun. Can you honestly say with a straight face that you would give up your firearm to someone, with a mob behind him, beating you down scuffling for it and think your life isn't in danger?
    Well, I wouldn't be in that situation in the first place, because I'm not a dangerous idiot who's going to go to a protest armed in the first place.

    But, in order;

    1> Even if Rosenbaum was pushing that dumpster, so what? It was moving at a slow walking pace, at best. That wasn't a threat of any kind whatsoever to anyone.
    2> Taunting an armed militia type to shoot you is not "aggressive". It's mocking. "Oh no, the unarmed guy made fun of me" isn't a threat, stop being ridiculous.
    3> The eyewitness testimony states Rittenhouse was handling his weapon dangerously and putting people at risk. You're ignoring that, for some reason.
    4> Nobody fired at Rittenhouse. That's just false.
    5> Rosenbaum threw a plastic bag with a water bottle in it. If you thought that was a threat of imminent death of great bodily harm and shot him because of that, it's because you're a dangerous murderer.
    6> Rittenhouse was never "cornered".
    7> Rosenbaum grabbed at the gun that Rittenhouse had deliberately aimed at Rosenbaum.

    There is no stage of this that justifies Rittenhouse's actions.

    Literally all his shots were when he couldn't get away, from someone swinging a skateboard to his head, someone trying to head stomp him, and someone drawing a pistol on him... yet the media has painted him as going on a "rampage". All those videos quickly disprove that.
    The videos confirm it.

    You don't get to shoot people just because you might get hurt if you don't. The self defense standards are much stricter than that. I've already linked them multiple times.

    Particularly when the second incident only occurred because Rittenhouse had already killed one person. It was a response to an active shooter. You're making the case that trying to tackle someone shooting up a mall means that the shooter can kill you and it's fine because that's self defense; ignore the crime they're in the middle of committing and that the person they just shot was trying to stop them. That's what you're arguing, here; that trying to stop an active shooter should be illegal and that shooter should be legally permitted to shoot anyone who tries to stop them. That's your argument, unapologetically.


    And again: if Rittenhouse thought he'd acted in self defense, he was obliged to turn himself in to the police. He did not. He fled the State, demonstrating he thought he was guilty of a crime. You can't do something like that and claim it was self defense.

    If you kill your husband and cover up the death by burying him in the back yard and telling everyone he's away on a work trip, you don't get to try and claim that he was choking you to death when you shot him. If that were the case, you'd have called the cops immediately, not covered it up and tried to evade justice.
    Last edited by Endus; 2020-09-02 at 07:05 PM.

  11. #13831
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuujin View Post
    All I read is a bunch of good guys, one with a skate board,one with a gun, trying to stop a bad guy with a gun.
    "Good guys" -- might want to see their rep sheet.

  12. #13832
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Doesn't change the fact Rosenbaum was charging at him, throwing objects, and trying to wrestle for the gun in a threatening manner.
    Unless, as McGinnis the Daily Caller reporter on the scene said in the criminal complaint, Rittenhouse was handling his weapon poorly and the protesters felt that he was a threat to their safety. If he was waving his gun around and/or pointing it at people, that's absolutely a threat to their lives (it's a gun) and would justify their first action in their own self defense against very real armed threat.

  13. #13833
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    "Good guys" -- might want to see their rep sheet.
    Victim-blaming.

  14. #13834
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Because simply any fictional version of events you have of him goes out the window when you consider he came from out of state, armed himself to be there voluntarily. There's also the video of him holding his weapon bragging that "we don't do non lethal". He inserted himself in any situation you can spin off, it's not the media it's Rittenhouse. He lost any claim of being a victim the second he went to another state, he came looking for a fight in his own words.
    You make it sound like he traveled a vast distance "from another state" when it was literally a half hour drive, a distance that is a typical daily commute. Meanwhile rioters travel numerous states to get there to cause havoc on communities they got no ties to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Victim-blaming.
    I don't view thugs as victims, frankly.

  15. #13835
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Unless, as McGinnis the Daily Caller reporter on the scene said in the criminal complaint, Rittenhouse was handling his weapon poorly and the protesters felt that he was a threat to their safety. If he was waving his gun around and/or pointing it at people, that's absolutely a threat to their lives (it's a gun) and would justify their first action in their own self defense against very real armed threat.
    Particularly as, y'know, Rittenhouse ended up shooting three people, killing two, and demonstrating he very much was a threat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    I don't view them as victims, frankly.
    Which is the problem.

    You're trying to dehumanize shooting victims to applaud their murderer. That's the problem, here.

    It's really no different than when Nazis equated Jews to rats, to justify their extermination. Same sentiment.

  16. #13836
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    You make it sound like he traveled a vast distance "from another state" when it was literally a half hour drive. Meanwhile rioters travel numerous states to get there to cause havoc on communities they got no ties to.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't view them as victims, frankly.
    And there it is the property > people argument.

    People are breaking stuff...better send in someone from another state to kill them.

    Pathetic.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

  17. #13837
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    You make it sound like he traveled a vast distance "from another state" when it was literally a half hour drive.
    Saying "he went to another state" implies he traveled great distance? I mean, it's literally factually true. He crossed into another state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Meanwhile rioters travel numerous states to get there to cause havoc on communities they got no ties to.
    And if they go to another state with the intent to cause harm, fuck them and prosecute them. That's the difference. Y'all are circling the wagons around Rittenhouse while implying that "liberals" would do the same if one of their own was involved.

    Meanwhile, the response from just about everyone to the Portland shooting, even liberals, largely remains, "Fuck that guy, prosecute his ass for murder."

  18. #13838
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    You make it sound like he traveled a vast distance "from another state" when it was literally a half hour drive. Meanwhile rioters travel numerous states to get there to cause havoc on communities they got no ties to.
    So are you going to defend the rioters too? it doesn't matter if he traveled 5 minutes he had no business being there, he isn't a cop, no one invited him to do this for them. He's a teenager you guys want teenagers to fight your battles now?

  19. #13839
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Particularly as, y'know, Rittenhouse ended up shooting three people, killing two, and demonstrating he very much was a threat.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which is the problem.

    You're trying to dehumanize shooting victims to applaud their murderer. That's the problem, here.

    It's really no different than when Nazis equated Jews to rats, to justify their extermination. Same sentiment.
    I ain't applauding murder, I find it justified self defense. Don't give me a ridiculous comparison.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    So are you going to defend the rioters too? it doesn't matter if he traveled 5 minutes he had no business being there, he isn't a cop, no one invited him to do this for them. He's a teenager you guys want teenagers to fight your battles now?
    The Democrats have no issues having teens riot for them for months, so why shouldn't he feel compelled to defend what he thought was right because the Police weren't? I actually find it commendable.
    Last edited by Daedius; 2020-09-02 at 07:16 PM.

  20. #13840
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    I ain't applauding murder, I find it justified self defense. Don't give me a ridiculous comparison.
    It isn't "ridiculous".

    Your argument that it was self defense does not derive from the facts. By the law and by Rittenhouse's actions afterwards, neither the law nor Rittenhouse thought it was legal self defense.

    Your argument derives from political affiliation. You like that he murdered people you consider "undesirables", so you support his murder and want him to walk free.

    That makes the comparison very much relevant, since you're making exactly that kind of argument. If that bothers you, stop making awful, dehumanizing arguments.

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