Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[DingDongKing]

I will, however, find states that agree with the position of being able to defend your property with lethal force, so it's irrelevant as to the motive.

The 17 year old murderer did not own any property in the catchment area he was murdering people in. He was just a garden variety turd.

[Edge-]

I will, however, find states that agree with the position of being able to defend your property with lethal force, so it's irrelevant as to the motive.

The pride people take in being able to legally murder people who are not presenting an immediate threat to their safety is really, really weird.

[Krastyn]

I'm going to remind you that the phrasing is "great bodily harm", and it has a very specific meaning under the law, and as such is concretely defined.

If you get beaten up so badly you need multiple stitches and are covered in bruises, split lip, black eyes, etc, that's not "great bodily harm". You could probably describe it as "serious injury", which is why I'm contesting your attempt to rephrase.

You say that you don't claim you need to suffer the injuries, but all of your examples compare injuries you actually sustained.

To your contesting my attempt to rephrase, as I've linked before, and will do again from here:

“Great bodily harm" means bodily injury which creates a substantial risk of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily injury.

Bold emphasis mine. So my claiming "serious bodily injury" is grounds for a lethal response, is the literal definition per Wisconsin law.

So it's now back to whether a reasonable person would consider Rosenbaum a threat to cause serious bodily injury. You don't, I do. We'll see what the courts say.

[BeepBoo]

There's enough countries in the world

Plenty of other countries do things a lot differently than the US. I'm fine being different.

Especially in the context of wanting to rock an assault rifle

TIL an assault rifle is any ergonomically designed gun that is at least semi-auto. Sorry friends, hunting single shot bolt actions only! /s.

An assault rifle is a full auto rifle. Sorry, none of those were present.

Society is the issue. Address it.

I'm all for this. I'll be using the most powerful tool I have: the vote.

[DingDongKing]

The pride people take in being able to legally murder people who are not presenting an immediate threat to their safety is really, really weird.

Man, maybe this is just because I'm British. But what the fuck do you guys need so many guns for? I just do not get it. And I refuse to agree that guns are necessary. It's just so much fucking phallic overload. I don't care what kind of gun it is, it ain't needed.

[Elegiac]

The pride people take in being able to legally murder people who are not presenting an immediate threat to their safety is really, really weird.

Nine through twelve.

- "Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.

- "Contempt for the Weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate Leader who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.

- "Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."

- "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."

Not saying anyone is willfully being fashy, but we live in a culture that has had ur-fascist elements since...Oh...

Well, I'm increasingly coming to view the Confederacy as the pattern for European despotic ethnostates for a reason, tbh.

[DingDongKing]

Plenty of other countries do things a lot differently than the US. I'm fine being different.


TIL an assault rifle is any ergonomically designed gun that is at least semi-auto. Sorry friends, hunting single shot bolt actions only! /s.

An assault rifle is a full auto rifle. Sorry, none of those were present.

I'm all for this. I'll be using the most powerful tool I have: the vote.

Tells you where I live that we don't have guns. My knowledge of them is restricted to all the shootings in the US and video games.

Do you mind me asking who you'll be voting for? You can PM me if it's sensitive.

[BeepBoo]

Man, maybe this is just because I'm British. But what the fuck do you guys need so many guns for? I just do not get it. And I refuse to agree that guns are necessary. It's just so much fucking phallic overload. I don't care what kind of gun it is, it ain't needed.

Guns are a fun toy and also an equation equalizer. Don't need to be as strong or fit as someone when a gun is involved. Ergo, someone wants to do the worst thing they possibly can IMO, and start shit with physical violence? Sure. Show me how big and badass you are against 3200fps.

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Tells you where I live that we don't have guns. My knowledge of them is restricted to all the shootings in the US and video games.

Do you mind me asking who you'll be voting for? You can PM me if it's sensitive.

Biden. Trump is the absolute worst president in the history of the nation and is nearly literally hitler. I will vote however necessary to get the highest likelihood of him getting out of office.

[Elegiac]

Man, maybe this is just because I'm British. But what the fuck do you guys need so many guns for? I just do not get it. And I refuse to agree that guns are necessary. It's just so much fucking phallic overload. I don't care what kind of gun it is, it ain't needed.

There are antecedents in English common law but for a variety of reasons, by which I mean just one reason, it has been interpreted in such a way as to be a constitutional mechanism for certain states to enact extrajudicial violence on certain demographics through militia and individuals to maintain a particular status quo.

[Coolthulhu]

If you think seeing someone walk around in an open carry state with an AR is "zomg so fear inducing" you're weak.

I'm gonna have to play devil's advocate here, partially at least: just because you can do something it doesn't mean you should. Specifically, carrying an AR as a civilian in America strikes me as rather unhinged, even outside the current Civil War-esque climate. The only countries in which I'd expect to see civilians carry ARs/AKs are Third World hellholes to be honest. Granted, open carry always struck me as less-than-sensible to me, but I can get behind a civilian open-carrying a properly-holstered handgun. An AR not so much. In fact if I were to see someone strolling around with a long arm in a urban context I'd find cover first and ask myself whether I'm dealing with a terrorist/mass shooter or just some colossal neckbeard later.
Of course I wouldn't run after him yelling "get him" and trying to wrestle the gun from him either. Seriously, what were they thinking? Again, just because you can, it doesn't mean you should, and running after a guy with an AR in that kind of scenario doesn't seem all that different than committing suicide by cop to me. I mean, suicide by cop, suicide by imbecile, where's the difference?

[BeepBoo]

Seriously, what were they thinking? Again, just because you can, it doesn't mean you should, and running after a guy with an AR in that kind of scenario doesn't seem all that different than committing suicide by cop to me. I mean, suicide by cop, suicide by imbecile, where's the difference?

At least you acknowledge both sides, and also I'm in agreement. *I* would never open carry a gun because I'm well aware of the aura it gives off. That doesn't mean it's against the law, and I'm fine with people doing it. It doesn't bother me. I know guns, I know people. I trust myself more than anything else as far as those two are concerned. If I'm nervous, I'll bounce. You'd also find that, while I used it as an example, I'd also never go walking through a ghetto with money bags. However, everyone that plays stupid games and finds themselves winning stupid prizes; it is what it is. The law is what it is. If the kid is found guilty? Hell yeah. All for it. I simply don't see it (as far as murder) though. Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong. We're a land of laws first. I speed nearly constantly. 10-20 over everywhere whenever traffic allows. However, you'd never find me bemoaning a ticket.

[postman1782]

https://tuckbot.tv/#/watch/ioiu35
https://tuckbot.tv/#/watch/ioinpn

Nothing to see here people, just peaceful Proudboys just openly assaulting people in Portland.

I have called them domestic terrorists since they went to the Unite the Right hate rally in Charlottesville. And people laughed at me. There has been multiple events that have proved me right, including the one where a group of them were arrested for inciting a riot in New York City after LARPing killing some random dude with a sword. Gavin McInnes was there with the sword, and I think Fox News called him Antifa if I remember correctly, with a sword.

See, right here: https://twitter.com/foxnews/status/1...375041?lang=en

The dumbass with the sword is Gavin McInnes, the white nationalist former leader of Proud Boys.

[Hadriker]

Man, maybe this is just because I'm British. But what the fuck do you guys need so many guns for?

We don't. The majority of people in the US will never have a need for a gun. Its purely a cultural phenomenon and I am saying that as a gun owner myself.

[postman1782]

You do realize this is actually better evidence for his defense, than against? It shows that he was involved in a non-lethal situation, and didn't respond with lethal force.

Not it doesn't. As it was an entirely different situation and different circumstances. And again, you are ignoring Eye Witness testimony.

[Coolthulhu]

Man, maybe this is just because I'm British. But what the fuck do you guys need so many guns for? I just do not get it. And I refuse to agree that guns are necessary. It's just so much fucking phallic overload. I don't care what kind of gun it is, it ain't needed.

As a 5'7'' * 110 lbs person, I can assure you that guns are needed. How am I supposed to protect myself against not a giant but just even an average guy without being a ninjutsu/krav maga master? Aside from that, guns are tools. Kind of like knives - you're British, you should be familiar with the subject. It all boils down on how people use them. Defense is but one thing you can do with them. Then there's hunting (which I personally despise, but I digress), sporting (many shooting sports are Olympic sports, many people seem to forget that), collecting, plinking... many things. More than I do with knives, for sure - I only use knives to eat.
I'm not American by the way. Many seem to assume that guns are only common in America, but that's simply not true - to be sure, Europe doesn't have nearly as many, but those who think there's no gun culture in Europe should probably remember that Europe's history with guns predates the birth of the USA by centuries, and it's not history that died down. Beretta was founded in 1526, for instance. To this day, it's one of the world's prominent gun manufacturers. Boggles the mind, eh?

[silveth]

Legal precedent disagrees with you.

The Charlottesville car murderer also used "self-defense" with the same gullible idiots on the internet saying how clear-cut self-defense was because there was totally proof that someone had attacked his car first.

Dude got life in prison.

How many times do we have to go through the 'defend murder with flimsy self-defense arguments' circus?

The kid clearly had intentions on showing up to cause/ get into trouble. He's admitted as much, and even if he hadn't, he showed up with an illegally obtained weapon, with gear to mask his identity in case he used it (disposable gloves, etc) and then fled the state after killing 2. That's where the argument of self-defense falls apart.

Your statement forgot some context which is the problem.

He was trying to hide his identity, So he lets himself be interviewed without a mask on earlier?
He clearly had intentions on showing up to cause trouble, so helping put out a dumpster fire is causing trouble?

The illegally obtained weapon I have no idea about because that is based on state laws and how he got it. So it could be true or false.

My favorite...

He fled the state after the incidents. Going to the local police and being told to go. So then he drove home, which is all of 20 minutes away and turned himself in to the police there........ Your right, just saying fled the state sounds much better for that narrative.

Don't get me wrong, I am not sure if it was self defense or not, that will come out in the trial. But the whole situation is not so cut and dry as you seem to think.

[BeepBoo]

We don't. The majority of people in the US will never have a need for a gun. Its purely a cultural phenomenon and I am saying that as a gun owner myself.

I wonder if the rest of the world has as big of a thing as we do with fireworks as well, now that you mention it? Like, personally owning and setting off fireworks. Seems to me like a lot of people never get to experience the simple joy and pleasure of blowing shit up or feelings of actual force.

[postman1782]

There is nothing illegal about putting yourself in harms way. Futhermore, if the source of the harm is illegal, then the onus is on those causing the harm, not the person receiving it. You need to show he was the aggressor. His mere presence does not establish that. The fact that he's running away in both encounters implies the opposite, in fact.

Let's see, he was violating curfew, as a minor, with an illegal weapon, pointing his gun at people as was witnessed by at least 2 people, that makes him the aggressor, and the only reason he was running, because he admitted to killing someone after they tried to take his gun after pointing it at people. And him running away, doesn't negate the fact that he just killed someone. Does a school shooter get a pass after he murders, say his intended target like a bully, then runs away? No, it just means he is now a fugitive and should be treated as such.

[Endus]

You say that you don't claim you need to suffer the injuries, but all of your examples compare injuries you actually sustained.

The point being that, even if you escalate the circumstances from a hypothetical potential of injury to actual injury, it still fails to qualify as justification.

To your contesting my attempt to rephrase, as I've linked before, and will do again from here:

Fair enough, though I still think you're glossing over a lot of the context in that passage.

[postman1782]

It goes poof for both sides. He shouldn't be there, they shouldn't be there. If no one is there, no one gets shot. However, Rittenhouse being there past curfew, even with a potential illegal weapon, STILL does not void his right to self defense per Wisconsin law.

When he is committing a crime by pointing a gun at someone, which is assault with a deadly weapon, that voids the self defense claim, because then Rittenhouse became the aggressor in that scenario.

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Where were all these legal experts from the Right when George Floyd or Breonna Taylor or Trayvon Martin or Elijah McClain were murdered?

They all want to defend some punk with an AR15 goes on a shooting spree in 'self defence' (NOT) but can't muster even a shred of decency when innocent people have their lives taken away from them. Absolute hypocrites.

They didn't care. He wasn't a white guy that murdered 2 people and maimed a 3rd, in a white nationalist militia.