1. #15561
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Except, I can probably link you dozens of videos of other protesters stopping the rioters or turning them in. While if a cop turns in another guy in his precinct, that cop is usually fired or subjected to so much harassment they quit, or in some cases, get killed. There isn't a thing similar to the "blue wall of silence" amongst protesters.
    So you do agree that some police officers did try to turn in "bad apple"? And you do realize that you proved his point ? They are not all corrupted.

  2. #15562
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So you do agree that some police officers did try to turn in "bad apple"? And you do realize that you proved his point ? They are not all corrupted.
    There are so few that do, that it doesn't make a difference. And again, there is no "blue wall of silence" when it comes to protesters, but there is for the Police.

    Again, if they aren't turning their fellow officers in when they witness crimes, then they are just as bad as the ones that do commit crimes.

  3. #15563
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    There are so few that do, that it doesn't make a difference. And again, there is no "blue wall of silence" when it comes to protesters, but there is for the Police.

    Again, if they aren't turning their fellow officers in when they witness crimes, then they are just as bad as the ones that do commit crimes.
    Yeah sure. Let's fire them all.

    On a serous note, how does that go in other countries?

    Maybe you should make sure that each incident is properly investigated with a proper independant service. This is where you should start.

    If you take an extremist stance as you are currently, you can be sure you will get an extremist response. You stance just removed the human part of it, most cops do not report the others because they are afraid of losing their jobs, plain and simple.

  4. #15564
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yeah sure. Let's fire them all.

    On a serous note, how does that go in other countries?

    Maybe you should make sure that each incident is properly investigated with a proper independant service. This is where you should start.

    If you take an extremist stance as you are currently, you can be sure you will get an extremist response. You stance just removed the human part of it, most cops do not report the others because they are afraid of losing their jobs, plain and simple.
    Camden, New Jersey actually did that. They fired most of their cops and started over. They got rid of the cops with lots of excessive force complaints. And have fewer excessive force complaints since they overhauled their police departments.

    And I agree with you, they need to have an independent investigation away from Internal Affairs and DAs that work with the cops on a daily basis.

    I am not taking an extremist stance, as the extremist stance is to get rid of the cops entirely, which no one is advocating for. I have asked for the independent stuff in previous posts, literally like 2 days ago.

  5. #15565
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Except, I can probably link you dozens of videos of other protesters stopping the rioters or turning them in.
    I can probably do the same with cops. Your point?

    Also, "dozens", haha, no.

    While if a cop turns in another guy in his precinct, that cop is usually fired or subjected to so much harassment they quit, or in some cases, get killed. There isn't a thing similar to the "blue wall of silence" amongst protesters.
    This narrative that the police force is evil is just so detestable. I don't get what you guys hope to accomplish.

  6. #15566
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    I can probably do the same with cops. Your point?

    Also, "dozens", haha, no.



    This narrative that the police force is evil is just so detestable. I don't get what you guys hope to accomplish.
    If they aren't reporting or testifying against the cops they see doing illegal things, then yes, they are evil.

  7. #15567
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    36,751
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So you do agree that some police officers did try to turn in "bad apple"? And you do realize that you proved his point ? They are not all corrupted.
    Some officers try to and end up fired, harrassed, on desk duty, facing DEATH THREATHS misuse of office equipment to research and then harass them and their families.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yeah sure. Let's fire them all.

    On a serous note, how does that go in other countries?

    Maybe you should make sure that each incident is properly investigated with a proper independant service. This is where you should start.

    If you take an extremist stance as you are currently, you can be sure you will get an extremist response. You stance just removed the human part of it, most cops do not report the others because they are afraid of losing their jobs, plain and simple.
    This is a silly argument you have.

    "YOU CAN'T FIRE THEM ALL you need to have investigated from the outside"

    FBI and DHS has found that many departments have people who are either in or sympathise with groups the FBI deems as terror threats at the same time the FBI says they have a first amendment right to be part of those groups. The fuck do you do with officers who want to literally end your existence in the country?

  8. #15568
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    If they aren't reporting or testifying against the cops they see doing illegal things, then yes, they are evil.
    Do you consider protesters who hide/don't report or testify against rioters who do illegal things evil? I suspect that the answer to this would be no, and you will give me reasons as to why this doesn't apply to the side you support, but does to the side you oppose. I don't know what the precise nature of that answer will look like, so I will leave that to you. Or I could be wrong entirely, in which case my bad.

    I ask this not to pick a fight, I think on many things we are in broad agreement with, such as the need for an independent body to investigate the police, that isn't made up of cops, is not answerable to the police and is transparent in their decision making. And I think we are both in agreement that some fundamental changes need to happen with policing, we might disagree on what some of these are, however I think we certainly agree on what some of those should be. My point is that I am genuinely not trying to be adversarial.

    I think there can be a problem with using overly emotional language, such as evil. I understand it, it is born out of anger, out of disgust, however I am not sure how helpful this is, and I genuinely feel that in viewing this as good v evil, it becomes very difficult to see people on the other side as human and I think this is bad. In suggesting this, I want to be clear, I am not suggesting for a second that I am above this. We can all fall into this trap. I have a hard time not doing it with some elements of the protesters. There are elements within the protest movements that frankly scare me, and I feel that more reasonable elements do not do enough to counter them and to disown them, and tend to gaslight them out of existence, insisting that it is simply a far right conspiracy, or that it is so minor that it can be ignored- I won't lie I get angry with these people. It scares me further how the far right, and see Trump doing this, will insist that these extreme elements are representative of the entire movement, and will point to an alleged lack of meaningful and sincere public denouncement by peaceful protesters, as evidence that they are just as bad, that they are enablers. I think it is safe to assume that as we get closer to the election, this rhetoric will be ramped up, a vote for Trump is a vote for law and order, a vote for Biden is a vote for anarchy, burning buildings, pissed covered streets and looting, and frankly I think it will work, and I think it will be a disaster for the USA.

    It does frustrate me that more sane elements can't/won't see this. They demand the police act in a way that too many on their own side are unwilling to do (e.g. get their house in order). And sometimes, to my shame, I start seeing the wider movements in the same way I see the lunatic wings, my frustration colours my view of things. I usually can pull myself back before I go in with both feet, though not always before making a comment I later think I shouldn't have made, or at least articulated differently, and realise that this isn't fair, it isn't that black and white, people are complicated.

    My point is that when we get ruled by emotional reasoning, and start seeing things as black and white, good vs evil, my side is good, those other guys are evil, and must be destroyed, things can get messier than they need to be, and our thinking can get clouded. I think a demand for sensible police reform is reasonable and just. I think much of the anger aimed at the police is justified. However at the same time, I don't think it will help get the police to act when there are loud voices insisting that they are evil, that they are all bastards, spouting kill all cops (and most of the voices pushing back against those sentiments, at least on a public level don't appear to be saner voices on the reform side, I know it isn't many who are doing this but lets not act like there are none either, and there doesn't need to be many for it to be weaponised by Trump), if I was on the police I would be skeptical of these calls and the motivations of the people making them, as a member of the public I would not want police reform to be decided by the ACAB/FUCK PIGS!/All cops are evil crew. There is a huge difference in going into talks with a group that supports what you are, but wants you to be better and has good faith solutions to offer to achieve this, and a group that insists you are evil, you are all bastards (I mean this statement literally means every single one without exception, and if someone has a problem with it being taken literally then maybe pick a different slogan, use a word like most or some), has fringe elements that want your abolition and to do harm to you, why would you sit down with the latter?

    Like I said, I think that the anger is justified. I believe reform is essential. However using overly emotional language when it comes to demands, slogans and assertions, especially dehumanising language (and I grant, some cops are evil and are bastards, I just can't accept that they all are, or even most), I genuinely don't think this is the best way to move forward. And I also think it gives too much ammunition to the likes of Trump. Now one could argue that they would twist and weaponise your words regardless of how measured they are, and this isn't a bad point to make, you could also argue that the Trumpsters wouldn't care how reasonable the language is, they would still be against it, you can't change their minds, and again this is not a bad point to make. However I do believe, and I suppose this might be more of a misplaced sense of faith in humanity than anything else, but there might be enough who could be immune to the moral panic Trump will create if they see less extreme behaviour and language (and I do think calling the cops evil is extreme language) and more measured words and actions from more of the protesters, maybe enough to make a difference. I could be way off with this, maybe it wouldn't matter in the end, maybe the only way is to just go mental and break stuff until they capitulate, I just have a hard time accepting that this is how it needs to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  9. #15569
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    36,751
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    I can probably do the same with cops. Your point?

    Also, "dozens", haha, no.



    This narrative that the police force is evil is just so detestable. I don't get what you guys hope to accomplish.
    Are you white? Like you're probably white, white or not from this country.

    THE UNITED NATIONS CALLS THE PROBLEM MODERN DAY LYNCHING and draws parallels between black American treatment and Roma treatment in Hungary.

    But let's all listen to the non-targeted person tell targeted people how they're all wrong. As if your opinion means anything as if you think your opinion should mean even more coming from your lack of experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Do you consider protesters who hide/don't report or testify against rioters who do illegal things evil?
    So you hold the police to the same standards of following the law as protesters?

    Police are literally working with white hate groups deemeds terror threats by the FBI and your problem is "oh but are they going over the top"

    You say emotional reasoning except... there is a lot of DATA som of it from the FBI and DHS itself. ACAB comes from the fact that these issues can easily be solved with "good cops reporting" but you know what happens when good cops report? ENTIRE DEPARTMENTS TURN ON THEM HARASS, HIDE, AND FIRE THEM so the idea that "it's just a few bad apple" is fucking bullshit and bogus unless you think ENTIRE DEPARTMENTS are just a fucking tardis that somehow is filled with thousands of more rotten apples inside.

    Tell me what major reform has come from people trying to capitulate to the median? We'd still be in jim crow following shitty advice like that.

    Police officers operate like a gang. The sheriff department in LA.

    had a racist gang that gave out fucking gift cards for physical violence IS THE ENTIRE DEPARTMENT AN APPLE???????

    When the whistleblower testifies that the deputy shot a man on the ground in the back multiple times to earn his executioners ink you mean we shouldn't dismantle the entire department and get rid of all those cops. You know the ones LINKED TO MURDERS AND HAVE HAD SEVERAL PEOPEL ARRESTED OVER YEARS

    What number of needless deaths by cops linked to hate groups and known to murder is acceptable before you're like "maybe that department should be scrapped and started over anew"???

    By chance are you either white or not American?

    Becuase you sound like non-rohingya people telling roghinyga to just behave and not be so radical, while the Burmese exterminate them. It's always the "moderate white person" that has held this country back from progress. As they are more concerned with how things look not whether black and brown people are suffering and dying. The latter is just an inconvenicen but one they are more than willing to put up with not being the target of said oppression.

    It does frustrate me that more sane elements can't/won't see this. They demand the police act in a way that too many on their own side are unwilling to do (e.g. get their house in order).
    What foolishness is this argument? They demand law enforcers act in a way in accordance with the law and that frustrates you? Please give me a fucking break. Do you expect Doctors to act like not doctors because they treat people who aren't doctors? Or do you expect your doctor to act like a doctor when treating you? They are supposed to be law-enforcers... except they usual break the law.

    And studies find they target black and brown people even when they're literally doing nothing. What fucking house needs to be in order what the fuck is out of order?

    You're over here bitching and moaning about fucking "emotional language"???

    Peopel are getting shot, killed, abused, choked, INJECTED WITH KETAMINE FOR NON-MEDICAL REASONS and you're over here fucking BITCHING AND MOANING about emotional language?

    Are you fucking serious?

    Look slavery is a problem but by jolly look how those ni----- negros talk. it's so violent and emotional! <-- This is a worthless opinion.
    Last edited by Themius; 2020-09-21 at 12:14 PM.

  10. #15570
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    If they aren't reporting or testifying against the cops they see doing illegal things, then yes, they are evil.
    Such black and white view of the world, yet you claimed not to be an extremist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Are you white? Like you're probably white, white or not from this country.
    And here come the racists... I'm not even gonna bother with the rest of the post, it's like a hundred conspiracy theories package.
    Last edited by Soliloque; 2020-09-21 at 01:22 PM.

  11. #15571
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    I can probably do the same with cops. Your point?

    Also, "dozens", haha, no.



    This narrative that the police force is evil is just so detestable. I don't get what you guys hope to accomplish.
    Well, let's take Buffalo. It wasn't just a couple bad cops who pushed down an old guy. It was the two dozen cops around them that die not render aid, and who ignored it. It was the department who got caught lying about the incident, and falsifying reports. It was the 50+ officers who resigned their billets in protest to their buddies getting in trouble.

    Enjoy that narrative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  12. #15572
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    Such black and white view of the world, yet you claimed not to be an extremist.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And here come the racists...
    Most of African Americans talk about how they have been targeted by police.


    The police report numbers literally prove this to be true:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ates/19043207/
    Blacks are more likely than others to be arrested in almost every city for almost every type of crime. Nationwide, black people are arrested at higher rates for crimes as serious as murder and assault, and as minor as loitering and marijuana possession.

    Arrest rates are lopsided almost everywhere. Only 173 of the 3,538 police departments USA TODAY examined arrested black people at a rate equal to or lower than other racial groups.
    So to continue with your stance one or more of the following must true:

    - You don't understand how numbers work.
    - You think African Americans are genetically predisposed to commit more crime, which is racist.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  13. #15573
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Most of African Americans talk about how
    And there it ends. I don't give half a crap about "talking" or "my truth" or all that other bs. Bring me data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    So to continue with your stance one or more of the following must true:

    - You don't understand how numbers work.
    - You think African Americans are genetically predisposed to commit more crime, which is racist.
    Hahaha, I absolutely love when people of your ilk poison the well like this, providing nothing but Iwin/Youlose possible answers to the question.

    Yeah, no. All that shows is that black people get arrested, period.
    Is your claim that they're being falsely arrested? Then I'm on your side, let's prove the accusations are false and get those innocents out.
    If not, that means they've been correctly arrested.

    So I don't see what your issue is with criminals getting arrested. I don't give a crap about skin color when it comes to that, and neither should you.

  14. #15574
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    And there it ends. I don't give half a crap about "talking" or "my truth" or all that other bs. Bring me data.



    Hahaha, I absolutely love when people of your ilk poison the well like this, providing nothing but Iwin/Youlose possible answers to the question.

    Yeah, no. All that shows is that black people get arrested, period.
    Is your claim that they're being falsely arrested? Then I'm on your side, let's prove the accusations are false and get those innocents out.
    If not, that means they've been correctly arrested.

    So I don't see what your issue is with criminals getting arrested. I don't give a crap about skin color when it comes to that, and neither should you.
    Enjoy!!!

    https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/f...mographics.pdf

    Enjoy!!!

    https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/pu...lice-use-force

    Enjoy!!!

    https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi...ntext=articles
    Last edited by Machismo; 2020-09-21 at 02:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  15. #15575
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    And there it ends. I don't give half a crap about "talking" or "my truth" or all that other bs. Bring me data.



    Hahaha, I absolutely love when people of your ilk poison the well like this, providing nothing but Iwin/Youlose possible answers to the question.

    Yeah, no. All that shows is that black people get arrested, period.
    Is your claim that they're being falsely arrested? Then I'm on your side, let's prove the accusations are false and get those innocents out.
    If not, that means they've been correctly arrested.

    So I don't see what your issue is with criminals getting arrested. I don't give a crap about skin color when it comes to that, and neither should you.
    Lol, typical bullshit.

    If almost 90% of the people are saying it happens and the actual numbers you requested prove those almost 90% of people correct, then its not people speaking their truth or whatever crap you're spewing. It is fact.

    What I provided is called logic. You likening logic to poison is telling though.

    Of course you're missing the point as well. Think this through.....

    The numbers show black people are arrested at a higher rate than any other race. That is either due to racism by the police departments or because black people are genetically predisposed to commit more crime. Which is it? There is literally no other possible reason but one of those two for black people to arrested more than any other race. That's not poisoning the argument, that is following it out to the logic conclusion.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  16. #15576
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    64,371
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    Going by this logic all those "peaceful protesters" out there are also 100% violent rioters since they also practice what you describe here, and in much larger % compared to police cases of misbehaviour.

    Not that I agree, I think you're insane. This stance is ridiculous, it completely discounts the human element.
    The comparison you're making is just straight up dishonest.

    1> Police have special rights and authorities, which they abuse. Protesters do not.
    2> Police have a chain of command, who have the additional authority to remove officers from their positions if they abuse their authority. There's no such chain of command for protesters.
    3> Police have a code of conduct they're required to abide by. Protesters? Nope.
    4> Police have the support of their colleagues in defending and protecting their abuses, which is why a police officer may have dozens of use-of-force complaints against them, when the first should have seen them fired and probably charged with assault and battery and put in prison. Protesters aren't supporting violent protesters.

    There's essentially no grounds for comparison on this topic. You're making up absolute nonsense that is completely divorced from reality and reason.

    There is no "discounting the human element". Literally all that's being called for is that police be held to account to the same kinds of standards they hold everyone else to.
    Last edited by Endus; 2020-09-21 at 02:37 PM.

  17. #15577
    This is why america needs sir Robert Peels 9 principles of policing.

    1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.

    2.To recognize always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.

    3. To recognize always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing cooperation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.

    4.To recognize always that the extent to which the cooperation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.

    5.To seek and preserve public favor, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humor, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.

    6.To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public cooperation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.

    7.To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

    8.To recognize always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.

    9.To recognize always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

  18. #15578
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Lol, typical bullshit.

    If almost 90% of the people are saying it happens and the actual numbers you requested prove those almost 90% of people correct, then its not people speaking their truth or whatever crap you're spewing. It is fact.

    What I provided is called logic. You likening logic to poison is telling though.

    Of course you're missing the point as well. Think this through.....

    The numbers show black people are arrested at a higher rate than any other race. That is either due to racism by the police departments or because black people are genetically predisposed to commit more crime. Which is it? There is literally no other possible reason but one of those two for black people to arrested more than any other race. That's not poisoning the argument, that is following it out to the logic conclusion.
    Just to point out there could be other reasons to make the arrested rates different. What I would like to see is a breakdown on crime based on population location and police presence. AKA is there a correlation between city based arrests and suburb or rural based numbers? If we look at arrest rates and break them out to rural, suburb, and city, does each area have the same higher rates for 1 group over the other? If the economic ties to crime are true, then could there be anything to the location of the lower economic areas for the specific groups? Can this maybe have to do with the smaller areas served by higher numbers of law enforcement available to work on crimes? I have no idea how this would end up looking, but I personally haven't seen any kind of breakdown like that.

    I am interested in knowing if the crime vs arrest rates are the same in all 3 different living areas or do they even out in say rural, but not suburb or city, or are they even in rural/suburb, but not city? Could the number of law enforcement available in a smaller area cause more arrests to be made in that area and what is the percentage of arrests vs crimes in each different type of living area.

    I am honest, maybe someone did look into this kind of breakdown and I haven't seen it. Maybe the breakdown would show the same rates. I have no idea, but I would really be interested in seeing a report like that.

    I will also point out your statement about predisposition is wrong. I believe economic situations have an impact on crime. That has nothing to do with skin race, but location of the people in those conditions might.

  19. #15579
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    The numbers show black people are arrested at a higher rate than any other race. That is either due to racism by the police departments or because black people are genetically predisposed to commit more crime. Which is it? There is literally no other possible reason but one of those two for black people to arrested more than any other race. That's not poisoning the argument, that is following it out to the logic conclusion.
    Genetics differences between groups aren't the only plausible hypothesis for differences in behavior - socialization, local environment, economic conditions, and so on are all likely to play roles. You're giving a pretty big win to white nationalists if you move to stating outright that the only way two groups could actually be behaving differently is genetics.

  20. #15580
    BLM are going down in how they are viewed.. the Demonrats finally realising that the constant looting and rioting isn't actually a good look

    Trump2020. Landslide victory coming Lots of tears from all the filth in this thread

    Infract me.
    [Infraction]
    Last edited by Rozz; 2020-09-21 at 10:45 PM. Reason: Trolling

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •