Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Specialka]

To be fair, he's making such a fool of himself it's kinda entertaining if you're not really involved in the conversation and also already very bored waiting for food to cook.

Well, I am thinking the same about people responding to me. The fantasy where they live in must be so nice with all those perfect people always doing the right thing at the right time.

[Felya]

And yet I do not see a lot of people wanting to leave their job because they are undertrained. It does exist, but it is rare, far rarer than it should be. Why is that ?

Because they are unethical and then rely on police union protection, to cover up their incompetence. You keep talking about them quitting, but what about them being fired or persecuted?

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Well, I am thinking the same about people responding to me. The fantasy where they live in must be so nice with all those perfect people always doing the right thing at the right time.

No, how about paying for your mistakes... your argument is against responsibility and accountability...

[Endus]

And yet I do not see a lot of people wanting to leave their job because they are undertrained. It does exist, but it is rare, far rarer than it should be. Why is that ?

Largely because people with any sense of ethics don't accept positions which require or encourage unethical conduct.

I had a job in college working in a call center for a company that managed charity campaigns. I found out that the company was responsible for creating some of those charities, so they could set the donation percentage taken by the call center at 95%; for every $20 donation, $1 actually went to the charity, while the remaining went to the telemarketer. Other campaigns were more legitimate, but while this was all technically legal, it felt squirrely as hell, and I quit a couple days after I found out about it. Because I couldn't be a part of something like that. And I wasn't the only one who left over this. I'm not claiming to be anyone special.

It's a basic sense of ethics, not a magical pot-o-gold.

[Deus Mortis]

"I lost?! Uh uh... *FART*"



If you are talking about the Dodgers win, no, no one is defending and most people in LA are very much annoyed by those dumbass Dodger fans.

No Easo was talking about this.

[Felya]

Largely because people with any sense of ethics don't accept positions which require or encourage unethical conduct.

I was training someone once for a major IT company, where they asked me what the c prompt was... I also once tried to hand off a project to a new employee, who was supposedly trained already, who had a nervous breakdown on the meeting because they had to edit text in a GUI crm. Ethics... lol... dollar dollar bill ya all...

Edit: Almost forgot the UNIX manager, whose 4 years of UNIX experience, was entering his time. The put him on phones as a tier one on Windows side and he literally put someone on hold, turned to manager and said ‘I quit’ and went back on the call... ooh... how about the IT manager, who literally never showed up for work... they had to call cops to find out he just flaked...

Edit 2: I am like... literally a valley girl from the 90s...

[Endus]

I was training someone once for a major IT company, where they asked me what the c prompt was... I also once tried to hand off a project to a new employee, who was supposedly trained already, who had a nervous breakdown on the meeting because they had to edit text in a GUI crm. Ethics... lol... dollar dollar bill ya all...

I mean, sure, there's lots of terrible people out there who will act unethically.

I'm just baffled by the idea that acting ethically is apparently some magically impossible thing.

[NoiseTank13]

No Easo was talking about this.

I don't support it, but I also understand why they feel the need to do it. When something like shooting a man in a community despite alternatives being available is a common occurrence, you lose faith in the system to resolve it in a satisfactory way and the people lose value in their own community. Why have respect for property when you feel your own life isn't respected?

[Felya]

I mean, sure, there's lots of terrible people out there who will act unethically.

I'm just baffled by the idea that acting ethically is apparently some magically impossible thing.

It’s the “fake it till you make it”... which is fine if your job doesn’t impact anyone... go get that cheese and all that... but, a cop? No... that’s fucked up... there is no “fake it till you make it” in that sort of field, because people get shot...

[Benggaul]

I don't support it, but I also understand why they feel the need to do it. When something like shooting a man in a community despite alternatives being available is a common occurrence, you lose faith in the system to resolve it in a satisfactory way and the people lose value in their own community. Why have respect for property when you feel your own life isn't respected?

Personally I feel like most of that is people unaffected by the act itself taking advantage of it much like has happened in small degrees in various BLM protests, but I'm also of the stance that I don't give a fuck about a few television sets when someone was needlessly shot next door.

[NoiseTank13]

Personally I feel like most of that is people unaffected by the act itself taking advantage of it much like has happened in small degrees in various BLM protests, but I'm also of the stance that I don't give a fuck about a few television sets when someone was needlessly shot next door.

Oh I'm sure there are some criminals doing under the guise of equality. I stand more with the people doing it as an expression, even if the punishment is equal to both camps.

[Edge-]

It’s the “fake it till you make it”... which is fine if your job doesn’t impact anyone... go get that cheese and all that... but, a cop? No... that’s fucked up... there is no “fake it till you make it” in that sort of field, because people get shot...

Like...when I first started out in my current career I didn't know what the fuck I was doing and learned on the job. I didn't get a degree or training for it.

But do you know what my job didn't involve? Peoples lives. It was incredibly not-important shit, and my mistakes at worst caused some embarrassment for my company/companies we rep, however while I was starting out I didn't directly interact with our clients or externally because I was just learning my job. I got trained by my experienced and trained coworkers.

But if my job was remotely crucial - if peoples lives depended on it in any way, if jobs were on the line for it etc., you bet your ass I wouldn't have taken it. I don't want that kind of personal responsibility in a role I'm unprepared for when those kinds of consequences exist. I could never imagine having that kind of responsibility, without training, and going about my job.

[Specialka]

Largely because people with any sense of ethics don't accept positions which require or encourage unethical conduct.

I had a job in college working in a call center for a company that managed charity campaigns. I found out that the company was responsible for creating some of those charities, so they could set the donation percentage taken by the call center at 95%; for every $20 donation, $1 actually went to the charity, while the remaining went to the telemarketer. Other campaigns were more legitimate, but while this was all technically legal, it felt squirrely as hell, and I quit a couple days after I found out about it. Because I couldn't be a part of something like that. And I wasn't the only one who left over this. I'm not claiming to be anyone special.

It's a basic sense of ethics, not a magical pot-o-gold.

Your exemple is about fraud, not being undertrained.

[Endus]

Your exemple is about fraud, not being undertrained.

It's not technically fraud at all. Money still went to the charities, they just weren't up-front about the percentage the call center took off the top for most campaigns. And you're shifting goalposts; you tried to argue that nobody would quit a job due to ethical conflcits, and I pointed to a case where I had personally done so.

[Specialka]

It's not technically fraud at all. Money still went to the charities, they just weren't up-front about the percentage the call center took off the top for most campaigns. And you're shifting goalposts; you tried to argue that nobody would quit a job due to ethical conflcits, and I pointed to a case where I had personally done so.

You are the one shifting goalpost here. You are arguing that people should quit their job if undertrained. Like I said, it exists but it is rare.

[Endus]

You are the one shifting goalpost here. You are arguing that people should quit their job if undertrained. Like I said, it exists but it is rare.

I said they should quit their jobs if their employers are putting them into dangerous positions for themselves or others without adequate training or equipment to mitigate or eliminate that danger.

I really don't care about what you wanted to make it about. That's you shifting goalposts. And here, just angry that I won't take a kick at the deliberately dishonest goalposts you set.

[Edge-]

You are the one shifting goalpost here. You are arguing that people should quit their job if undertrained. Like I said, it exists but it is rare.

Question: If someone is doing a job they're not properly trained for, and that lack of training could lead to harm for others, who is responsible?

[Specialka]

Question: If someone is doing a job they're not properly trained for, and that lack of training could lead to harm for others, who is responsible?

The one responsible for the lack of training and putting the guy in there.

You all sure like to blame the small personal in here

[Yadryonych]

Question: If someone is doing a job they're not properly trained for, and that lack of training could lead to harm for others, who is responsible?

The manager who appointed one to such job

[Edge-]

The one responsible for the lack of training and putting the guy in there.

You all sure like to blame the small personal in here

So the individual who did a dangerous job they were untrained for has no responsibility in your view?

Don't get me wrong, their employers absolutely bear responsibility for sending out untrained employees to do a dangerous job. But is there no personal responsibility for people who knowingly go out with insufficient training and do a dangerous job that can put others at risk, in your view?

Like, am I A-OK to hop in an 18 wheeler tomorrow with just my Class C license? What if I run over a family and kill them? Is it just my employer who's to blame, and not me for knowingly getting behind the wheel of a large and dangerous vehicle?

[Endus]

The one responsible for the lack of training and putting the guy in there.

You all sure like to blame the small personal in here

You keep (falsely) pretending that there's only a set amount of blame to go around, and thus blaming management means the individual should face less blame.

That's not how anything works, anywhere.

If you bear any share of responsibility, the blame expands to include you, proportional to that responsibility. It doesn't mean those more-directly responsible have any less blame.

The military is super-clear on this. If your commanding officer tells you to execute a prisoner of war, and you do so, you've committed murder. That you were ordered to is not an excuse, and does not in any respect reduce your culpability. It just means your commanding officer is also going to face consequences.