1. #17081
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Question: If someone is doing a job they're not properly trained for, and that lack of training could lead to harm for others, who is responsible?
    The manager who appointed one to such job

  2. #17082
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    The one responsible for the lack of training and putting the guy in there.

    You all sure like to blame the small personal in here
    So the individual who did a dangerous job they were untrained for has no responsibility in your view?

    Don't get me wrong, their employers absolutely bear responsibility for sending out untrained employees to do a dangerous job. But is there no personal responsibility for people who knowingly go out with insufficient training and do a dangerous job that can put others at risk, in your view?

    Like, am I A-OK to hop in an 18 wheeler tomorrow with just my Class C license? What if I run over a family and kill them? Is it just my employer who's to blame, and not me for knowingly getting behind the wheel of a large and dangerous vehicle?

  3. #17083
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    The one responsible for the lack of training and putting the guy in there.

    You all sure like to blame the small personal in here
    You keep (falsely) pretending that there's only a set amount of blame to go around, and thus blaming management means the individual should face less blame.

    That's not how anything works, anywhere.

    If you bear any share of responsibility, the blame expands to include you, proportional to that responsibility. It doesn't mean those more-directly responsible have any less blame.

    The military is super-clear on this. If your commanding officer tells you to execute a prisoner of war, and you do so, you've committed murder. That you were ordered to is not an excuse, and does not in any respect reduce your culpability. It just means your commanding officer is also going to face consequences.

  4. #17084
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    The manager who appointed one to such job
    Did you just unironically do a Karen?
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  5. #17085
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Don't get me wrong, their employers absolutely bear responsibility for sending out untrained employees to do a dangerous job. But is there no personal responsibility for people who knowingly go out with insufficient training and do a dangerous job that can put others at risk, in your view?
    That depends heavily on the job, in some cases being untrained means the employee might not even realise the job he is appointed to is dangerous.

  6. #17086
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You keep (falsely) pretending that there's only a set amount of blame to go around, and thus blaming management means the individual should face less blame.

    That's not how anything works, anywhere.

    If you bear any share of responsibility, the blame expands to include you, proportional to that responsibility. It doesn't mean those more-directly responsible have any less blame.

    The military is super-clear on this. If your commanding officer tells you to execute a prisoner of war, and you do so, you've committed murder. That you were ordered to is not an excuse, and does not in any respect reduce your culpability. It just means your commanding officer is also going to face consequences.
    Not this simple. The military exemple means that a superior of the police officer asked him to shoot someone which is not the case. When militaries do collateral damage, they are rarely held accountable for it. As I said, not that simple as you make it out to be, as usual.

  7. #17087
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Not this simple. The military exemple means that a superior of the police officer asked him to shoot someone which is not the case. When militaries do collateral damage, they are rarely held accountable for it. As I said, not that simple as you make it out to be, as usual.
    You're hand-waving, because you don't want to admit to the base principles at play, which was the entire point of all this.

    You're just trying to argue that murderous cops should get a pass, because they're cops.

  8. #17088
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    People charge cops here with knives all the time and they dont shoot them? Cops dont get hurt here often either. It's like they learned how to deal with someone with a knife.

    I mean that doesnt stop them beating the shit out of the person afterward, they're cops after all.
    People charge at cops with knives all the time and don't get shot? I keep finding different stories of people being shot charging officers with a knife, but I am not finding officers not shooting who are being charged at with a knife. Can you find me some stories?

  9. #17089
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    People charge cops here with knives all the time and they dont shoot them? Cops dont get hurt here often either. It's like they learned how to deal with someone with a knife.
    The cops from the video dealt with it perfectly fine though. The assailant is taken down, the public safety is assured, the law is upheld. Another job done well. Your cops might have a different approach but it is the outcome that matters

  10. #17090
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    The cops from the video dealt with it perfectly fine though. The assailant is taken down, the public safety is assured, the law is upheld. Another job done well. Your cops might have a different approach but it is the outcome that matters
    Before cops... no one dead... after cops... someone dead... call it “mission accomplished” it’s more appropriate.

    Cops... saving lives, one death at a time...
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  11. #17091
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    The cops from the video dealt with it perfectly fine though. The assailant is taken down, the public safety is assured, the law is upheld. Another job done well. Your cops might have a different approach but it is the outcome that matters
    Your statement is in direct contradiction with your signature. How surprising. Toodles.

  12. #17092
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    the law is upheld.
    Which law, specifically, is that?

  13. #17093
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Which law, specifically, is that?
    Comply or die.
    /s

  14. #17094
    Banned Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Before cops... no one dead... after cops... someone dead... call it “mission accomplished” it’s more appropriate.

    Cops... saving lives, one death at a time...
    Before cops, a crazed armed man running amok. After cops, no one is threatening the neighbourhood anymore. Innocent people are saved

  15. #17095
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Before cops, a crazed armed man running amok. After cops, no one is threatening the neighbourhood anymore. Innocent people are saved
    He wasn't "running amok". He was on his front porch and his mother was with him. The cops had been to the house three times previously:

    Police said Walter Wallace Jr., 27, was wielding a knife and ignored orders to drop the weapon before officers fired shots Monday afternoon. But his parents said Tuesday night that officers knew their son was in a mental health crisis because they had been to the family’s house three times on Monday.

    Cathy Wallace, his mother, said one of the times, “they stood there and laughed at us.”
    Three times and they laughed and still didn't think to grab one of the officers with a TASER to come along with them for this ride? No. Fuck them and fuck you for trivializing this shit.

    If police resources are so stretched that they can't give everyone a TASER than they had better fucking ensure that at least one officer responding to calls like this has one. They don't say that nobody in the department has one, so obviously there were some available they could have assigned to this.

  16. #17096
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Before cops, a crazed armed man running amok. After cops, no one is threatening the neighbourhood anymore. Innocent people are saved
    explain tamir rice to me.

  17. #17097
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    What about a teen that kills himself after being bullied and received no help from teachers ?
    they will be in fucking big ass troubles, at least where i live

  18. #17098
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    The cops from the video dealt with it perfectly fine though. The assailant is taken down, the public safety is assured, the law is upheld. Another job done well. Your cops might have a different approach but it is the outcome that matters
    There was no assault, and thus no "assailant".
    The public safety was destroyed, because officers killed a member of the public.
    There was no law being broken. Wallace's brother is the one who called 911, and he called for medical assistance and an ambulance, not police response because of any supposed crime.

    You're straight-up lying about the facts of the case.

  19. #17099
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackDruid96 View Post
    People charge at cops with knives all the time and don't get shot? I keep finding different stories of people being shot charging officers with a knife, but I am not finding officers not shooting who are being charged at with a knife. Can you find me some stories?
    Literally 5 seconds youtube search:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOTLP9rDiN4

    Trick is you have to include "UK" or another developed country name in your search.

  20. #17100
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I have most probably save more lives than all you combined (because I was once part of a law enforcement force), and I know what it requires to do the job right and it is not as simple as you all make it out to be.
    I've probably saved more lives FROM law enforcement types like you than you have saved.

    But go on, continue to try and appeal to authority. I feel confident in the reasonableness and rationality of my argument: that being mentally ill, and having a knife should not mean your death at the hands of state actors who are supposedly trained to de-escalate, and "protect and serve."

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