1. #17141
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    OR warning shots and worst case scenario shoot for the legs.

    There are several countries where shooting to kill is not the first step.
    Those countries have usually better and longer training for Police Officers.

  2. #17142
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    OR warning shots and worst case scenario shoot for the legs.

    There are several countries where shooting to kill is not the first step.
    Just to forestall this, "shooting for the legs" isn't a thing outside of movies. It asks for a degree of accuracy in a tense situation that's rarely seen outside of fantasy. Joe Biden recently got in trouble for saying something similar. There are, however, MULTIPLE nonlethal ways of taking down an armed assailant at the disposal of the police in the US and it's up to the department to deploy them when needed...such as to help subdue a mentally ill person whom they KNOW is mentally ill because they've already made three visits to the house in the same day and spoken with the mother.

  3. #17143
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Those countries have usually better and longer training for Police Officers.
    There's literally nothing preventing better police training. Maybe they could use the money they spend on SWAT cars with armor against land mines.
    “There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”

  4. #17144
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Just to forestall this, "shooting for the legs" isn't a thing outside of movies. It asks for a degree of accuracy in a tense situation that's rarely seen outside of fantasy. Joe Biden recently got in trouble for saying something similar. There are, however, MULTIPLE nonlethal ways of taking down an armed assailant at the disposal of the police in the US and it's up to the department to deploy them when needed...such as to help subdue a mentally ill person whom they KNOW is mentally ill because they've already made three visits to the house in the same day and spoken with the mother.
    And, to repeat; 911 was called to ask for mental health professionals and an ambulance, apparently out of concern Wallace would self-harm. There was never any statement that he was putting anyone at risk or threatening anyone.

    Cops shouldn't have been sent to the home at all.


  5. #17145
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post


    That's not how intent is defined, like, anywhere. I've pointed at family members with a knife I was using to chop veggies, while cooking, to point something I wanted them to grab me. Wasn't a lethal threat, obviously. Knives don't work by pointing them at people, unlike firearms.
    I’d say he had the knife in a low ready stance, wouldn’t you Endus? Which according to the Rittenhouse stans is not threatening.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  6. #17146
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    OR warning shots and worst case scenario shoot for the legs.

    There are several countries where shooting to kill is not the first step.
    Oh god, inc 2A folks talking about how this is the worst thing anyone can possibly do.....
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  7. #17147
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Just to forestall this, "shooting for the legs" isn't a thing outside of movies. It asks for a degree of accuracy in a tense situation that's rarely seen outside of fantasy. Joe Biden recently got in trouble for saying something similar. There are, however, MULTIPLE nonlethal ways of taking down an armed assailant at the disposal of the police in the US and it's up to the department to deploy them when needed...such as to help subdue a mentally ill person whom they KNOW is mentally ill because they've already made three visits to the house in the same day and spoken with the mother.
    Hate to break it to you, but the police do warning shots -> leg shots in my country.

  8. #17148
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but the police do warning shots -> leg shots in my country.
    Hate to break it to you, but it sounds like the police in your country aren't that much better than in the US in that regard then.

    Leg/arm shots are potentially equally as fatal as torso shots (shots in the arms/legs can easily hit major arteries and send bone shards out like shrapnel), are much harder to hit especially in the heat of a confrontation, are potentially more dangerous to bystanders and don't even guarantee that an assailant will stop. Shooting is always a last resort because there is always a chance of a fatality regardless of what part of the body you hit and regardless of your accuracy.

    "Warning shots"--by which I assume you mean shots fired into the air or near the assailant as a warning--are also dangerous to bystanders because you have no idea where they will land/penetrate.

  9. #17149
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but it sounds like the police in your country aren't that much better than in the US in that regard then.

    Leg/arm shots are potentially equally as fatal as torso shots (shots in the arms/legs can easily hit major arteries and send bone shards out like shrapnel), are much harder to hit especially in the heat of a confrontation, are potentially more dangerous to bystanders and don't even guarantee that an assailant will stop. Shooting is always a last resort because there is always a chance of a fatality regardless of what part of the body you hit and regardless of your accuracy.

    "Warning shots"--by which I assume you mean shots fired into the air or near the assailant as a warning--are also dangerous to bystanders because you have no idea where they will land/penetrate.
    While they can be deadly. I'd rather take a bullet to the leg, than several to the body, I'm pretty sure everyone would prefere a leg shot over beeing gunned down.

    Here's a video of one incident, where a knife armed man, is not murdered by the police.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv397z5epTE

    Weapons are always dangerous and warning shots can be. It's always pretty stupid to fire one into the air, as you point out they can hit bystanders. But again, I'd rather have a warning shot near me, than one directly to the leg or even worse, body. Can it ricochet and do some serious damage? Yes, but again it's a more safe moave than several body shots.

    UK Police do warning shots fx.

  10. #17150
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    While they can be deadly. I'd rather take a bullet to the leg, than several to the body, I'm pretty sure everyone would prefere a leg shot over beeing gunned down.
    If I've put myself in a position where the police have to fire at me then I'd consider myself lucky if I come out alive regardless of where I'm shot. As stated, you can easily be mortally wounded from an arm or leg shot which is why police are trained to shoot for center mass--because if they HAVE to shoot then they have to assume they might kill the person they're shooting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Here's a video of one incident, where a knife armed man, is not murdered by the police.
    Cool, now look up how many times that's happened successfully versus not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Weapons are always dangerous and warning shots can be. It's always pretty stupid to fire one into the air, as you point out they can hit bystanders. But again, I'd rather have a warning shot near me, than one directly to the leg or even worse, body. Can it ricochet and do some serious damage? Yes, but again it's a more safe moave than several body shots.
    Safer for the person being shot at, maybe, but not for anyone else who might be in the area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    UK Police do warning shots fx.
    Neat. Even cops think warning shots are a stupid idea. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/p...hot/798338001/

    I used to think "why not shoot them in the leg?" was a viable concept--I might have even posted in this very thread to that effect a long time ago--but then I read up more on the subject and learned why, ultimately, it's not really a thing.

    The bottom line is that police should be trained to pull out their guns as a last resort because firing at anyone potentially means their death regardless of the method. The police in this instance--and in most instances pointed out in this thread--are not using guns as a last resort. They're going in with them practically already in their hands, escalating the situation rather than doing their jobs.

  11. #17151
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but it sounds like the police in your country aren't that much better than in the US in that regard then.

    Leg/arm shots are potentially equally as fatal as torso shots (shots in the arms/legs can easily hit major arteries and send bone shards out like shrapnel), are much harder to hit especially in the heat of a confrontation, are potentially more dangerous to bystanders and don't even guarantee that an assailant will stop. Shooting is always a last resort because there is always a chance of a fatality regardless of what part of the body you hit and regardless of your accuracy.

    "Warning shots"--by which I assume you mean shots fired into the air or near the assailant as a warning--are also dangerous to bystanders because you have no idea where they will land/penetrate.
    You are right, they should aim for the head

    You have still less chances to hit a vital organ by aiming in the arm or leg than in the torso.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but the police do warning shots -> leg shots in my country.
    They are most probably more train than the average police officers in the USA as aiming for anything else than torso in a tense situation requires a lot of skill and self control.

  12. #17152
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    You are right, they should aim for the head

    You have still less chances to hit a vital organ by aiming in the arm or leg than in the torso.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They are most probably more train than the average police officers in the USA as aiming for anything else than torso in a tense situation requires a lot of skill and self control.
    How about not shoot someone when emergency services were called due to a mentally ill man who may harm himself??
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  13. #17153
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    How about not shoot someone when emergency services were called due to a mentally ill man who may harm himself??
    Most probably, Police Officers should have not been send alone on that case if it was established that it was a mentally ill person that was the issue. But if the situation arised, they should still be ready to open fire, as it seems it was the case here.

    Why did the right started to move toward the police officer with the knife in hand ? Did the 2 police officers provoke him ?

  14. #17154
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Most probably, Police Officers should have not been send alone on that case if it was established that it was a mentally ill person that was the issue. But if the situation arised, they should still be ready to open fire, as it seems it was the case here.

    Why did the right started to move toward the police officer with the knife in hand ? Did the 2 police officers provoke him ?
    why are you asking the motives of a mentally ill person?
    that was the problem and that is the reason because the cops shouldnt shoot him, being ill isnt a reason to be executed, not even in the US for all i know.
    and most importantly, nott knowing what to do in a situation isnt a justification for murder, if they panicked they should start to cry, shit in their pants, run, not fucking execute someone

  15. #17155
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    why are you asking the motives of a mentally ill person?
    that was the problem and that is the reason because the cops shouldnt shoot him, being ill isnt a reason to be executed, not even in the US for all i know.
    and most importantly, nott knowing what to do in a situation isnt a justification for murder, if they panicked they should start to cry, shit in their pants, run, not fucking execute someone
    Sure, to be stabbed in the back ? Have you any other great idea like that ?

  16. #17156
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    In most of these cases typically because of the nature of what is being filmed I sided against cops.

    However not in this case. You can’t threaten people with deadly weapons like a knife. The cops did the right thing.

    Arguments that cops treat POC more harshly I agree. But again you can’t do this kind of behavior not expect this result.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  17. #17157
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Sure, to be stabbed in the back ? Have you any other great idea like that ?
    You can walk backwards. It’s not hard.

  18. #17158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    You can walk backwards. It’s not hard.
    I agree with you, but this is ridiculous... walk backwards? ‘Cmon man...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  19. #17159
    So I just realized there was another shooting, the Walter Wallace thing, and looking into it. The fact that the officers didn't have tazers is the real problem here. Philly police department can be held liable for that. Officers are blameless, they weren't properly equipped.

    The idea that all these cities can create mental health units of people running around the city dealing with knife wielding people who have mental health issues seems extremely far fetched. First of all it requires a level of education that most officers don't have, a level of education that usually implies that those people have access to better career opportunities than driving around all hours of the night dealing with potentially violent mentally ill people. You'd have to pay A LOT - like 150-200k a year - to convince truly qualified candidates to even apply (plus good health insurance to deal with inevitable injuries and good life insurance for those who get killed, both of which would be expensive), and even then it would take several years to spin up training programs at the collegiate level. Then there are problems like response time - if a city has one team on duty all the time, how long is it gonna take then to get to each location? What if there are two events going on at the same time? This feels like a hat that the cops will continue to need to wear.

    But is this evidence of systemic racism? Nah. Remember, there are 10,000 arrests a day. Some are going to go badly. This is one of those ones with extremely weird circumstances that admittedly wasn't handled well (he should have been tazered). Strikes me as another unfortunate circumstance, not anything malicious (like Breonna Taylor and unlike George Floyd). The riots against the cops are an overreaction. Against the people who didn't fund the purchase of tazers... that's justified. That's all I'm gonna say about it.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2020-10-30 at 04:30 AM.

  20. #17160
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    So I just realized there was another shooting, the Walter Wallace thing, and looking into it. The fact that the officers didn't have tazers is the real problem here. Philly police department can be held liable for that. Officers are blameless, they weren't properly equipped.
    They killed a guy, and are blameless? That makes no sense.

    The idea that all these cities can create mental health units of people running around the city dealing with knife wielding people who have mental health issues seems extremely far fetched. First of all it requires a level of education that most officers don't have, a level of education that usually implies that those people have access to better career opportunities than driving around all hours of the night dealing with potentially violent mentally ill people.
    These mental health professionals already exist. They're not cops in the first place.

    You'd have to pay A LOT - like 150-200k a year - to convince truly qualified candidates to even apply (plus good health insurance to deal with inevitable injuries and good life insurance for those who get killed, both of which would be expensive), and even then it would take several years to spin up training programs at the collegiate level.
    Again, they already exist. And aren't paid anywhere close to that. Where are you getting this nonsense?

    Also, your position seems rooted in the idea that cops should be badly trained. Which is pretty bananas.

    Then there are problems like response time - if a city has one team on duty all the time, how long is it gonna take then to get to each location? What if there are two events going on at the same time? This feels like a hat that the cops will continue to need to wear.
    Typically, they'd be stationed out of hospitals. And these figures are proportional to population, anyway, so you're kinda just fantasizing about a non-problem.

    But is this evidence of systemic racism? Nah. Remember, there are 10,000 arrests a day. Some are going to go badly. This is one of those ones with extremely weird circumstances that admittedly wasn't handled well (he should have been tazered). Strikes me as another unfortunate circumstance, not anything malicious (like Breonna Taylor and unlike George Floyd). That's all I'm gonna say about it.
    When you have to continually say "This specific data point does not prove a trend", and ignore the pattern created by the data points, you're being deliberately dishonest about what the statistics say.

    It's the exact same nonsense climate change deniers engage in when they admit that "sure, this year is a record high for global temps, but that doesn't prove climate change is real". Ignoring the readily-observable warming pattern over time.


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