1. #18061
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Well yeah, good luck telling Mongolia they need to tear down that giant statue of Genghis Khan because he wasn't inclusive enough or didn't have an equitable LGBTQ policy.
    If Mongolians wanted to tear down their own statue, I don't really care either way.

    I don't think anyone is advocating that other countries should destroy statues that don't fit their personal morality. The conversation (at least for me) has been about the inhabitants removing and depicting what suits them. I don't think you'd mind if some mainland Chinese citizens destroyed a statue of Mao in their own country, because that's the type of discussion we're (or I) are having.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-04-12 at 04:38 AM.
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  2. #18062
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Well yeah, good luck telling Mongolia they need to tear down that giant statue of Genghis Khan because he wasn't inclusive enough or didn't have an equitable LGBTQ policy.
    What statue has been torn down over lgbtq policy? Do you think that's the same as tearing down statues of Columbus? A man who died in disgrace after killing Spanish people and was stripped of all titles and thought a mad man until his death? Who enslaved many and tortured them?

    This isn't about policy alone but actions... are we talking about a statue to a mass killer of lgbt people? do you think that's the same as policy?

    Honestly I don't understand people like you. You reduce things to something simple enough for you to understand since you can't fucking understand the complexity of the issue to begin with.

    then you act as if your reductive argument means shit, when all it means is you lack advance enough knowledge of the issue to even begin to speak on it.

    It's like trying to talk to a bus driver with a background of an associate degree in business about his plans to engineer new technology needed for climate change.

    You're out of your fucking depth yet people like you are so eager to talk about topics you're ignorant about, yet pretend you know even 1% of what is going on.

    Would you be confused if a group of Chinese people in Japan wanted a statue in their neighbourhood celebrating war criminals from the rape of banking taken down? Would you be at a loss as to why they'd be a little miffed about that?
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-04-12 at 04:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  3. #18063
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    What statue has been torn down over lgbtq policy? Do you think that's the same as tearing down statues of Columbus? A man who died in disgrace after killing Spanish people and was stripped of all titles and thought a mad man until his death? Who enslaved many and tortured?
    Columbus was amateur hour compared to the Great Khan.

    Hell, in Romania they have statues to Vlad Tepes Draculesti, and he impaled tens of thousands onto wooden stakes. Frankenstates states like the US and Canada are going to get messy about this stuff because they're not ethnic homelands. But telling Greeks, or Mongols, or Romanians, or Zulus, or Nigerians they can't commemorate their national heroes because they did naughty things like fight wars or have slaves is gonna get you laughed at, at best. Hence why I say to keep that shit in your countries.

  4. #18064
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    But telling Greeks, or Mongols, or Romanians, or Zulus, or Nigerians they can't commemorate their national heroes because they did naughty things like fight wars or have slaves is gonna get you laughed at, at best. Hence why I say to keep that shit in your countries.
    Is there any particular reason you're choosing to tilt at this entirely imaginary windmill?

    Seriously, this is entirely in your head. You're not talking about anything that's actually going on in the world.

  5. #18065
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Columbus was amateur hour compared to the Great Khan.

    Hell, in Romania they have statues to Vlad Tepes Draculesti, and he impaled tens of thousands onto wooden stakes. Frankenstates states like the US and Canada are going to get messy about this stuff because they're not ethnic homelands. But telling Greeks, or Mongols, or Romanians, or Zulus, or Nigerians they can't commemorate their national heroes because they did naughty things like fight wars or have slaves is gonna get you laughed at, at best. Hence why I say to keep that shit in your countries.
    What Americans flew over to the UK to take a statue down

    Oh let me guess you think that minorities in other countries should stfu, that they have no say about what goes on in their community?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Is there any particular reason you're choosing to tilt at this entirely imaginary windmill?

    Seriously, this is entirely in your head. You're not talking about anything that's actually going on in the world.
    I'm confused on the "keep it in your country" as if the British minorities are actually Americans in disguise who got citizenship on short notice? And then went over to rally against statues in other countries?

    Seems like qanon level bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  6. #18066
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Is there any particular reason you're choosing to tilt at this entirely imaginary windmill?

    Seriously, this is entirely in your head. You're not talking about anything that's actually going on in the world.
    Because we're talking about Westerners here. It's *always* a matter of time until you start forcing your beliefs on others. Yesterday it was Protestantism and colonialism, or using murder and coups to put in pro-Western governments. It's always just a matter of time until you people start forcing what you think onto others.

  7. #18067
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I'm confused on the "keep it in your country" as if the British minorities are actually Americans in disguise who got citizenship on short notice? And then went over to rally against statues in other countries?
    Like, there isn't some small group of people traveling about the world shaming people for their statues.

    It's people of various communities rising up and saying "this statue in the middle of our community is bullshit and we hate it and what it represents."

  8. #18068
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    What Americans flew over to the UK to take a statue down

    Oh let me guess you think that minorities in other countries should stfu, that they have no say about what goes on in their community?

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm confused on the "keep it in your country" as if the British minorities are actually Americans in disguise who got citizenship on short notice? And then went over to rally against statues in other countries?

    Seems like qanon level bullshit.
    I said keep it in your "countries", I know this stuff's going on in the entire Anglosphere.

  9. #18069
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Because we're talking about Westerners here.
    You realize that Greeks are "Westerners", right?

    It's *always* a matter of time until you start forcing your beliefs on others. Yesterday it was Protestantism and colonialism, or using murder and coups to put in pro-Western governments. It's always just a matter of time until you people start forcing what you think onto others.
    This is just complete nonsense.

  10. #18070
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Because we're talking about Westerners here. It's *always* a matter of time until you start forcing your beliefs on others. Yesterday it was Protestantism and colonialism, or using murder and coups to put in pro-Western governments. It's always just a matter of time until you people start forcing what you think onto others.
    You sound like you should speak to someone... you sound irrationally paranoid that the "others" are gonna come and "take your symbols" like... dude...you're basically spitting out neo-nazi propaganda like Tucker Carlson did the other day with his replacement theory.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I said keep it in your "countries", I know this stuff's going on in the entire Anglosphere.
    So Chinese communities in Japan don't get a say about war criminal statutes or not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  11. #18071
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You realize that Greeks are "Westerners", right?



    This is just complete nonsense.
    The status of Greeks in that depends on the period and the definition of Western. I've heard plenty of folks say we're not western. Hell, I've heard folks say we're not apparently even white.

    And it's not nonsense. The entirety of the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th century shows it. It'll be no different now. You'll export it like you did all the other destructive ideas you've had.

  12. #18072
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Like, there isn't some small group of people traveling about the world shaming people for their statues.

    It's people of various communities rising up and saying "this statue in the middle of our community is bullshit and we hate it and what it represents."
    I find a lot of Europeans, in general, are often shocked and scandalised by minorities in their country speaking, and feel that their voices don't mean that much because they're not really insert x nationality

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    The status of Greeks in that depends on the period and the definition of Western. I've heard plenty of folks say we're not western. Hell, I've heard folks say we're not apparently even white.

    And it's not nonsense. The entirety of the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th century shows it. It'll be no different now. You'll export it like you did all the other destructive ideas you've had.
    Which ethnicity in Greece wants statues taken down? Because you know the whole conversation here is people within the country wanting those statues down

    I mean a quick way to prove that your argument is pretty much bullshit on this point is that arguments about statues and monuments like this have been ongoing for a good CENTURY it's only now that things are actually happening... because you know.. progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  13. #18073
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Taking down a statue does absolutely nothing to the "historical moments" they memorialize.



    I mean, you're conflating entirely separate things, to push an entirely dishonest framing of events.

    Some statues are officially removed because of what they memorialize.

    Some other statues are just targeted for generic vandalism because they're present, without any ideological meaning behind that vandalism other than anger.

    Conflating the latter with the former is rank dishonesty, and demonstrates that you're not here to post in good faith.
    Where these statues officially removed or another act of destruction vandalism by criminal elements?

    Now if we are arguing conceptually you have a point but I dont infer it as such given the topic.

  14. #18074
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I said keep it in your "countries", I know this stuff's going on in the entire Anglosphere.
    Yeah, you've said it about six times so far. As if kids in Portland are hopping in jets during a pandemic to pull down a statue of Aristotle. /Mega eyeroll
    Last edited by downnola; 2021-04-12 at 06:28 PM.
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  15. #18075
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    You sound like you should speak to someone... you sound irrationally paranoid that the "others" are gonna come and "take your symbols" like... dude...you're basically spitting out neo-nazi propaganda like Tucker Carlson did the other day with his replacement theory.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So Chinese communities in Japan don't get a say about war criminal statutes or not?
    I'm not saying anything about race, because race is a modern social construct. I'm saying western governments are going to do what western governments have always done, particularly the Anglo ones. Impose whatever the current socio-political zeitgeist they have on everyone under their boots.

  16. #18076
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    The status of Greeks in that depends on the period and the definition of Western. I've heard plenty of folks say we're not western. Hell, I've heard folks say we're not apparently even white.
    Not in academic fields. Ancient Greece, along with Ancient Rome, are the origin points for "Western Civilization" in general. There hasn't been a time in history when Greece wouldn't qualify.

    And I really don't give a shit about the ever-changing chimera that is "whiteness", constantly redefined by racists to exclude whoever they've decided to hate this decade. It's also excluded the Irish, Italians, Spaniards, Slavs, at various times.

    And it's not nonsense. The entirety of the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th century shows it. It'll be no different now. You'll export it like you did all the other destructive ideas you've had.
    Again, Greeks are part of that same group. "We all".

    If I were to accept that colonialism was still rampant. Which, y'know, nah.

  17. #18077
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I'm not saying anything about race, because race is a modern social construct. I'm saying western governments are going to do what western governments have always done, particularly the Anglo ones. Impose whatever the current socio-political zeitgeist they have on everyone under their boots.
    Well that's just a ridiculous idea.

    I mean let's look at history... when the fuck has the anglo sphere ever tried to go around the world spreading progressive messages about anti-slavery statues

    We are currently in the middle of bombing random innocent people, and rallying against "leftist" governments with a long history of spreading conservatism around the glove complete with installing far right fascist groups...

    You think that long history of interference by "western governments" in order to spread conservatism and thwart any leftist government by implementing intelligence based regime changes suddenly is going to swing far left?

    The fuck are you on?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  18. #18078
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    I'm not saying anything about race, because race is a modern social construct. I'm saying western governments are going to do what western governments have always done, particularly the Anglo ones. Impose whatever the current socio-political zeitgeist they have on everyone under their boots.
    The only reason any local/state governments act is because there's local/state pressure.

    Seriously, you don't have anything to fear from sailboats full of ess jay dubyas washing up on your shores (or cycling across the border) and telling you to remove a statue. And if they do, you can have a laugh and tell them to fuck off.

  19. #18079
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    I think is is more on the order of 200 years from now, someone tears down a statue of Obama because his drone policy sometimes killed migrants so regardless of what good he also did we're not allowed to celebrate him.

    People are complicated. Very few of us are all good or all bad. Sometimes, we stop celebrating someone because the good they did was exaggerated/fabricated, and the bad significantly downplayed (like Christopher Columbus). Sometimes it's because the "good" they did was entirely subjective, being intentionally at the expense of other people (like most of the "heroes" of the Confederacy). But sometimes, someone was generally a good person, but also did some bad things. Maybe they engaged in something that was considered fine then, but isn't considered fine now. Maybe they were even bothered by it at the time. Is it right to let the evils they committed outweigh the good that they did? Is it right to judge the men of yesterday by the morals of today? Is it fair to hold people who are no longer alive to defend themselves to an impossibly high standard purely so we can pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves we're good people for holding them to account?
    You are literally making a "What about all the good things Hitler did" argument.



    Although my personal favourite is "Say what you want about Hitler... but at least he killed Hitler"
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  20. #18080
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not in academic fields. Ancient Greece, along with Ancient Rome, are the origin points for "Western Civilization" in general. There hasn't been a time in history when Greece wouldn't qualify.

    And I really don't give a shit about the ever-changing chimera that is "whiteness", constantly redefined by racists to exclude whoever they've decided to hate this decade. It's also excluded the Irish, Italians, Spaniards, Slavs, at various times.



    Again, Greeks are part of that same group. "We all".

    If I were to accept that colonialism was still rampant. Which, y'know, nah.
    There was a time when Irish and Latinos were all grouped together... until America bestowed on the Irish the honour of being white

    Whiteness is ever changing... i suspect once whites become a through minority in America they'll expand the group once again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    The only reason any local/state governments act is because there's local/state pressure.

    Seriously, you don't have anything to fear from sailboats full of ess jay dubyas washing up on your shores (or cycling across the border) and telling you to remove a statue. And if they do, you can have a laugh and tell them to fuck off.
    I want to know what historical basis he's using for:

    The evil left anglosphere USA/UK mainly... are going to try and implement global leftist movements!!!

    Like what?!!! They've been involved in DESTROYING THEM and installing the very opposite government. Like are we on the same planet with Stelio? Is there some alternate dimension where the USA is going around toppling capitalism and creating communist unions all over the world?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

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