1. #19081
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Intimidation? Really? I'm beginning to think the image being painted of cops by the anti-crowd is something out of Mad Max.
    Out of curiosity, how familiar with the history of police in the US are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    There are horrible cops. Chauvin, the chick cop who broke into the wrong apartment unit, those are indefensible except to the most asinine of bootlickers.
    Yet they often enjoy broad support from their colleagues, meaning that they're not the only bad cops, its all of those that also support them.

  2. #19082
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I'm not really sure what the problem is with this shooting.
    Largely the fact tasers are a thing, I would assume. Seems quite obvious that is people's issue based on basically every recent post here.

  3. #19083
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Out of curiosity, how familiar with the history of police in the US are you?



    Yet they often enjoy broad support from their colleagues, meaning that they're not the only bad cops, its all of those that also support them.
    Do you mean history as in recent events, or like the historical creation of?

  4. #19084
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Sounds like they lack experience in reality. I'm not so sure that is experience they'd be willing to get, though.
    Seriously, my experiences with cops as a child were overwhelming positive, including the one time a cop could have totally busted me for smoking weed when I was a teenager. Why? Because I was a white kid growing up in a smaller upper class city, where our police force was functionally 2 cops out in patrol cars doing the rounds and a few at the department sitting around. Nothing ever happened, you rarely ever saw the cops, and while there were break ins and some straight up robberies in some of the neighborhooods immediately around the freeway (where I lived!) you never saw any kind of hostile/militant police presense.

    I mean hell, thinking back it's kinda silly at times. Especially as I'd see the cops in the last city I lived in (much bigger, but very much an upper class city with a fancy shopping district and everything) with fucking AR-15's in the center console of their vehicles, with magazines in. There were maybe 3 shootings in all the years I lived there, a few at downtown bars known to be awful and one where the cops shot a Black kid who was known to have mental problems (and one the settled on civil charges on). WHY THE FUCK DO THEY NEED TO SHOW THAT KIND OF EXPLICIT THREAT OF FORCE? They don't. It's pure intimidation, they're not needing to grab their rifles at the drop of a pin and those can absolutely be safely and securely stored in the trunks of their vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Do you mean history as in recent events, or like the historical creation of?
    The creation of police forces in the US from the early slave-catcher days, throughout their use as a tool to reinforce slavery, taken from beyond the slave days to their use to brutally squash the labor movement etc. etc. etc. etc.

    The history of policing in the US is kinda fucking awful as fuck on every level, and it's the foundation for our modern police forces and why there remain extensive institutional problems.

  5. #19085
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Seriously, my experiences with cops as a child were overwhelming positive, including the one time a cop could have totally busted me for smoking weed when I was a teenager. Why? Because I was a white kid growing up in a smaller upper class city, where our police force was functionally 2 cops out in patrol cars doing the rounds and a few at the department sitting around. Nothing ever happened, you rarely ever saw the cops, and while there were break ins and some straight up robberies in some of the neighborhooods immediately around the freeway (where I lived!) you never saw any kind of hostile/militant police presense.

    I mean hell, thinking back it's kinda silly at times. Especially as I'd see the cops in the last city I lived in (much bigger, but very much an upper class city with a fancy shopping district and everything) with fucking AR-15's in the center console of their vehicles, with magazines in. There were maybe 3 shootings in all the years I lived there, a few at downtown bars known to be awful and one where the cops shot a Black kid who was known to have mental problems (and one the settled on civil charges on). WHY THE FUCK DO THEY NEED TO SHOW THAT KIND OF EXPLICIT THREAT OF FORCE? They don't. It's pure intimidation, they're not needing to grab their rifles at the drop of a pin and those can absolutely be safely and securely stored in the trunks of their vehicles.

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    The creation of police forces in the US from the early slave-catcher days, throughout their use as a tool to reinforce slavery, taken from beyond the slave days to their use to brutally squash the labor movement etc. etc. etc. etc.

    The history of policing in the US is kinda fucking awful as fuck on every level, and it's the foundation for our modern police forces and why there remain extensive institutional problems.
    In your perfect scenario where you get to play God. What do you do to fix the American police force and ensure this never happens again for the next 100 years?

  6. #19086
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    I'm not even a cop supporter.

    I'm just someone who can use logic to see when someone is justified and I'm not going to cry over a justified shooting,

    "fuck around and find out"

    She committed attempted murder when she lunged at the other girl with the knife.
    So you're fine with cops playing judge, jury, and executioner and completely ignoring the justice system altogether. Great, good to know that you don't believe in the concept of justice under the US legal system.

    Mind if I ask if there is any particular reason that you're choosing to die on the hill of "lethal force was the only legally justifiable action to take"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  7. #19087
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    In your perfect scenario where you get to play God. What do you do to fix the American police force and ensure this never happens again for the next 100 years?
    I mean, if you're gonna make such a bad faith question I'm not even going to bother to respond. Nobody is going to pretend that you can fix everything and that there won't be mistakes/tragedies/etc.

    If you want a serious discussion, ask a serious question.

  8. #19088
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    So you're fine with cops playing judge, jury, and executioner and completely ignoring the justice system altogether. Great, good to know that you don't believe in the concept of justice under the US legal system.

    Mind if I ask if there is any particular reason that you're choosing to die on the hill of "lethal force was the only legally justifiable action to take"?
    So you're fine with Bryant playing executioner on some teen in pink because she's having a bad day?

  9. #19089
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    In the US, because it's highly likely that they'll be dealing with situations where suspects or others involve may be armed with guns. That's why they're not standard issue in many other countries, though are tools that police still have access to and can be used in situations that call for it.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...debate/613258/

    Like, pretty often it seems that arming US police is a mistake because they're panicky, unpredictable, and likely to shoot someone unarmed, or who has a legal weapon that they are not holding/reaching for/using to threaten anyone else. Simply having it.
    You make it sound like a bug and not the design of the police. Police are trained from day one to treat every encounter like a potential life and death struggle. Where any arrest they make, stop they conduct, or even passing by a person on the street can turn into their deaths if they are not ready to kill. On the show Patriot Act with Hassan Minhaj, wish somebody would renew it because it was a great show, he touched upon this on an episode about police. He spoke with an ex cop and then Law Professor at the University of North Carolina and he said that police are trained to act and not react. That at even the slightest hint of potential danger you have to be ready to kill or be killed. Police are trained to shoot and ask questions later and it doesn't matter how many innocent people or even people who aren't deserving of death die because of how police are trained.


  10. #19090
    Immortal TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    So you're fine with Bryant playing executioner on some teen in pink because she's having a bad day?
    No, I'm just questioning whether lethal force was the only option. I think use of force was justified; I just don't think that lethal force was the only reasonable level of force to use. Now that I've answered your question, please answer mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  11. #19091
    Quote Originally Posted by pathora44 View Post
    You make it sound like a bug and not the design of the police. Police are trained from day one to treat every encounter like a potential life and death struggle. Where any arrest they make, stop they conduct, or even passing by a person on the street can turn into their deaths if they are not ready to kill. On the show Patriot Act with Hassan Minhaj, wish somebody would renew it because it was a great show, he touched upon this on an episode about police. He spoke with an ex cop and then Law Professor at the University of North Carolina and he said that police are trained to act and not react. That at even the slightest hint of potential danger you have to be ready to kill or be killed. Police are trained to shoot and ask questions later and it doesn't matter how many innocent people or even people who aren't deserving of death die because of how police are trained.
    Because when cops are poorly trained and don't treat every encounter like potential life and death in our country filled with guns, nutjobs, and a lack of access to mental health care, things like this happen:

    https://local12.com/news/nation-worl...king-for-rifle

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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    So you're fine with cops playing judge, jury, and executioner and completely ignoring the justice system altogether. Great, good to know that you don't believe in the concept of justice under the US legal system.

    Mind if I ask if there is any particular reason that you're choosing to die on the hill of "lethal force was the only legally justifiable action to take"?
    No, and I never said cops should have free reign to play judge, jury, and executioner. A panel will now review the evidence, and thankfully, that panel won't be filled with overly emotional people who cannot logically look at a situation. That panel will determine that this officer was justified in his use of force. People will get angry and riot and burn some things down and then we will move on.

    By making every case a case where people claim excessive force is being used, it lets actual cases where excessive force needs to be punished, go unpunished.

  12. #19092
    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    Because when cops are poorly trained and don't treat every encounter like potential life and death in our country filled with guns, nutjobs, and a lack of access to mental health care, things like this happen:

    https://local12.com/news/nation-worl...king-for-rifle
    Something something "innocent until proven guilty" something something.

    Because the threat exists doesn't mean that officers should treat every encounter with people like a life or death situation, doing so causes the exact kinds of consistent problems we see with excessive police violence, use of force, and unjustified killings.

    That police aren't on the front-lines of gun control movements for their own occupational safety astounds me, you'd figure they'd want to do everything to ensure that they can safely do their jobs without the apparently constant threat of deadly force being used against them.

    If that's the perception to begin with, that's not a functional police force. That's an occupation force.

  13. #19093
    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    Because when cops are poorly trained and don't treat every encounter like potential life and death in our country filled with guns, nutjobs, and a lack of access to mental health care, things like this happen:

    https://local12.com/news/nation-worl...king-for-rifle
    Yet police kill, beat, and falsely arrest far more innocent people or non violent suspects then they are killed because they are trained to treat every shadow as a potential killer.

  14. #19094
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    We're discussing different things here. The 3 seconds is from the point of when he sees the knife and fires. Still, 11 seconds to assess a situation where there are 6+ people and a fight is going on.

    3 seconds from point of seeing the knife to firing his weapon.
    So, moving goalposts, then.

    This started with how long he had to assess the situation. Now you want to limit it to a smaller segment of that, because you were wrong about the original claim and can't defend it.

  15. #19095
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Something something "innocent until proven guilty" something something.

    Because the threat exists doesn't mean that officers should treat every encounter with people like a life or death situation, doing so causes the exact kinds of consistent problems we see with excessive police violence, use of force, and unjustified killings.

    That police aren't on the front-lines of gun control movements for their own occupational safety astounds me, you'd figure they'd want to do everything to ensure that they can safely do their jobs without the apparently constant threat of deadly force being used against them.

    If that's the perception to begin with, that's not a functional police force. That's an occupation force.
    Presumption of innocence only applies in the court of law.

    Now the officer will face an internal court to determine if his actions are justified.

    He will be proven innocent by this court.

    Derek Chauvin was not.

    You are all so quick to call out this 16-year old's innocence while condemning the actions of the cop. You are absolutely dripping in hypocrisy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    So, moving goalposts, then.

    This started with how long he had to assess the situation. Now you want to limit it to a smaller segment of that, because you were wrong about the original claim and can't defend it.
    Not moving the goalposts. I've maintained 3 seconds. Go re-watch the video, this is the exact time frame he had from the point of which he spotted a deadly weapon and determined how to react.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathora44 View Post
    Yet police kill, beat, and falsely arrest far more innocent people or non violent suspects then they are killed because they are trained to treat every shadow as a potential killer.
    Burning man called. They want to know if they can borrow your strawman for the final act.

  16. #19096
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Seriously, my experiences with cops as a child were overwhelming positive, including the one time a cop could have totally busted me for smoking weed when I was a teenager. Why? Because I was a white kid growing up in a smaller upper class city, where our police force was functionally 2 cops out in patrol cars doing the rounds and a few at the department sitting around. Nothing ever happened, you rarely ever saw the cops, and while there were break ins and some straight up robberies in some of the neighborhooods immediately around the freeway (where I lived!) you never saw any kind of hostile/militant police presense.
    Hell, I've mentioned before one of my earlier experiences, as old as this girl was, 16. Me and my buddy were fingered by an eyewitness for a string of burglaries that had occurred in the area. He said he'd seen us peeking in windows and casing places, and described us, and we were definitely there; the cops picked us up a few minutes later because we were just sitting in my car trying to calm down.

    Two squad cars, two officers. We were put in the back of each, uncuffed, and questioned separately. Our stories lined up, and we had a witness to back us up to boot, and we were released, with the officers asking if we wanted to press charges for a false report.

    We were handled with kid gloves, the officer's weapons were never unholstered, we were never cuffed, even though we were specifically identified suspects in a chain of smash-and-grab burglaries.

    Probably because we were white kids, looking back. If we'd been black kids from Cole Harbour, might have been treated WILDLY differently, given racial tensions in the city at the time.

  17. #19097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    No that really doesn't sound honest. Intimidation? Really?
    If it sounded honest, you wouldn’t have the opinion you do... that’s how disagreement works.

    But, what do cops say, when they defend shooting? That the public is armed and they are afraid? Seems like the second amendment is a pretty honest answer... unless you claim cops are lying...

    Yes, it is intimidation... why would a cop react to a domestic dispute, while carrying a gun? Why would a cop being called for any none violent offense, come with a gun? Because they intend to shoot or because you better not do something stupid, or they will shoot? For guns to not serve as intimidation, the vast majority of crime... you have to claim that getting shot for any crime where a cop has a gun, is part of the job.

    I'm beginning to think the image being painted of cops by the anti-crowd is something out of Mad Max. The act of committing the crime itself isn't met by police force as much as direct refusal to obey commands as a potentially dangerous person.
    No, just tribalism... I agree with you that the cop who shot the knife wielded, was in the right. Your idea that my reply was about sides, just exposes how feckless your reply was...

    There are horrible cops. Chauvin, the chick cop who broke into the wrong apartment unit, those are indefensible except to the most asinine of bootlickers.
    Never said otherwise... you assumed, because I disagreed on a different point... you assumed I was part of some crowd, likely due to conditioning...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  18. #19098
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    Not moving the goalposts. I've maintained 3 seconds. Go re-watch the video, this is the exact time frame he had from the point of which he spotted a deadly weapon and determined how to react.
    You said he had three seconds to "assess the situation".

    He had 11, if we assume he did no assessing from within his squad car.

    You tried to move those goalposts to "how long he saw the weapon for", and that was an attempt to shift goalposts.

    If you seriously want to claim you always meant the latter, learn to phrase your statements better, because that is not what you originally said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    Presumption of innocence only applies in the court of law.
    While "technically correct", the real conclusion you should have drawn is that police officers have precisely zero authority or capacity to determine guilt or innocence. They cannot deem someone a murderer and thus gun them down. Literally off the table. A suspect could walk into a daycare, mow down every living thing in the room, and then walk out and toss their gun aside, and police officers would be expected to calmly and peaceably cuff him and take him into custody, nothing more. Their role is not to determine guilt or enact punishment. In any respect whatsoever. Any officer who feels otherwise is a violently dangerous offender who shouldn't have passed their psych eval.

  19. #19099
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Just to make it clear that this isn’t about sides... can we all agree on the following...

    The system needs to change, because it results in dead people.
    The actions of the cop shooting the knife wielder, was justified within the confines of our current broken system.

    Can this be a point of agreement, where this shooting being justified, is the very reason why we need reform?
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-04-22 at 08:01 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  20. #19100
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I'm not really sure what the problem is with this shooting. It seems to me like the officer shot the girl mid-lunge; clear threat to life. If it was a civilian intervening, there wouldn't be any complaint. If the girl in the pink sweater had been armed and fired in this situation, we probably wouldn't even know about it.

    The only problem I think I have with this situation is that he fired four times.
    Yeah. This shooting is tragic. A teenage girl died after all. I don't think she deserves to be dead. However I do think the Officer did the right thing considering the circumstances. I know there are people here who think the officer should have used a taser or some other less lethal force. But it was seconds from when they arrived to when shots were fired, they barely had time to assess the situation, much less de-escalate it. A taser might have been enough to stop them and i would agree it would have been the appropriate avenue if they were able to establish control over the situation, they just didn't have time to do that.

    There are no guarantees in a situation like this. The officer could have missed with the gun, he could have hit a bystander. Same thing with a taser. they could miss, it doesn't attach itself properly on the target, etc.

    If it was my life in their hands i would rather they use the option that has the highest chance of me still being alive and not stabbed.
    Last edited by Hadriker; 2021-04-22 at 08:11 PM.

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