1. #19101
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    @Endus @Edge and to all the others talking about tasers.

    Tasers a lot of times do literally jack shit! Here is a police shooting from two days ago of an officer deploying his taser and it doing jack shit. The man proceeded to continue running at the cop with a knife and the cop was left with no other option.
    Warning graphic content.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDWcqxqADwM
    No shit. Nobody is saying they should have stopped at the TASER if it was ineffective, giving the electric rifle a try first would have been nice though.

  2. #19102
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    I know there are people here who think the officer should have used a taser or some other less lethal force.
    This honestly just sounds like a classic Captain Hindsight line.

    Yep. Maybe he should've used a taser. He still saved someone from potentially being killed by a knife attacker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    Tasers a lot of times do literally jack shit! Here is a police shooting from two days ago of an officer deploying his taser and it doing jack shit. The man proceeded to continue running at the cop with a knife and the cop was left with no other option.
    I don't know enough about tasers to say but I thought that tasers weren't a great option against moving targets with loose clothing (though I'd have to review the video to check the clothing). Failure to connect happens, and failure to connect could result in a death here.
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  3. #19103
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    with no other option.
    Patently untrue, as shown abroad.

  4. #19104
    The other videos that were linked a couple pages back had multiple cops in the situation, the video I just linked was a cop by himself. I give those other cops major props for not using lethal force though, even though in each of the videos it would of been justified.

  5. #19105
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    @Endus @Edge and to all the others talking about tasers.

    Tasers a lot of times do literally jack shit! Here is a police shooting from a couple days ago of an officer deploying his taser and it doing jack shit. The man proceeded to continue running at the cop with a knife and the cop was left with no other option.
    Warning graphic content.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDWcqxqADwM
    And as we've pointed out, there are plenty of times shooting someone once with a handgun also does jack shit. Which is why officers generally shoot multiple times.

    Even then, it often fails to stop the guy. Bullets aren't magic solutions either.

  6. #19106
    Stood in the Fire Karreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Another video view
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/stat...02883638337542

    It's even got a nice "I will stab the fuck out of you." It's a confused melee with ~4 people, people tackling and kicking those on ground, and the police officer spotted the knife and took decisive action when it was held mid-lunge. 11 seconds my ass, that shit was all over the place.

    You can be totally in favor of police reforms and use of force reforms and be totally right to say this was a justified use of force. Including exercise in non-lethal commands "Get Down." He stopped an attempted murder in progress.
    I have to agree. I don't like that a teenager is dead, but I can not fault the officer in this situation. We can armchair quarterback about de-escalation techniques, tasers, or pepper spray, but that training issue runs deeper than this singular situation. I don't believe the officer showed malice or ineptitude here.

    Now the reports of his fellows officers taunting crowds with "Blue Lives Matter", that it much more troubling for me here, as that shows direct and intentional disrespect and disregard.
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  7. #19107
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    My core issue is that there was no escalating use of force. It was just immediately lethal force and a girl was dying within 11 seconds of the cop exiting his vehicle. The first instinct for an officer shouldn't be to unholster their sidearm in the first place, not unless they're responding to a "shots fired" type call with an active shooter. Here, the call was apparently just for a "disturbance", so I don't see that grounds existing.

    If he'd discharged his taser when she was on the ground, she got up and THEN rushed the girl, I'd feel differently.
    I think the question missing here, is why the cop reacted this way. I don’t believe it’s racism or intent of the cop to kill... I think what you are describing is the very issue highlighted by defund the police. Not the fact that this cop fucked up, but the fact that this cops fuck up is the result of our system. The result of training that leads to an immediate reaction of lethal force.

    I just don’t think it’s a good idea from a systematic problem perspective, to argue that this was a mistake by a single cop.
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  8. #19108
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    If it sounded honest, you wouldn’t have the opinion you do... that’s how disagreement works.

    But, what do cops say, when they defend shooting? That the public is armed and they are afraid? Seems like the second amendment is a pretty honest answer... unless you claim cops are lying...

    Yes, it is intimidation... why would a cop react to a domestic dispute, while carrying a gun? Why would a cop being called for any none violent offense, come with a gun? Because they intend to shoot or because you better not do something stupid, or they will shoot? For guns to not serve as intimidation, the vast majority of crime... you have to claim that getting shot for any crime where a cop has a gun, is part of the job.



    No, just tribalism... I agree with you that the cop who shot the knife wielded, was in the right. Your idea that my reply was about sides, just exposes how feckless your reply was...



    Never said otherwise... you assumed, because I disagreed on a different point... you assumed I was part of some crowd, likely due to conditioning...
    I assume nothing of you just that I disagree with guns being intimidation tactics moreso than a public safety reason.

    You can sprinkle some more insults in there as well if you'd like, not quite grasping who the holier-than-thou among us is yet.

  9. #19109
    I know people want to blame the police for this one, but any sane person can see how there was a genuine attempt to prevent great bodily harm.

    Now, exactly how this all started, who called 911, and all the other details... that still remains to be seen. It's entirely possible that the officer acted appropriately, and the person with the knife was also defending herself.
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  10. #19110
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    I assume nothing of you just that I disagree with guns being intimidation tactics moreso than a public safety reason.
    They absolutely are, intentional or not. The upper class city with next to zero violent crime, and absolutely no serious violent crime, had no need for their officers to have AR-15's visible in the front seats of their cars, with magazines loaded and at the ready. There is precisely zero public safety reason for that.

  11. #19111
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    I assume nothing of you just that I disagree with guns being intimidation tactics moreso than a public safety reason
    How is shooting in public, for public safety? I’d like to remind you, that even police chases in crowded areas are called off for public safety. I think the threat of being shot, is far more relevant to day to day interaction of police, than shooting for public safety.
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  12. #19112
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    The Ma'Khia video is sad. I can think of ways it could have played out differently but I'm not seeing a clear incident of bad cop. Two things that bother me, Ma'Khia is only 16, no taser there no attempt at a taser. What doesn't bother me, that he acted swiftly when he saw a knife going at someone's face/throat. In a lot of incidents, he would be commended. If my family member was being held attacked with a knife and an officer had that window of opportunity, please take that shot.

    What I don't like is that he jumped out the car with a gun but I can't really argue against it considering the call of an active altercation involving a weapon. The time between him exiting and shooting is just how things played out, how quickly they escalated.

    What he didn't do was announce himself or verbalize anything. I don't like that. It might have saved a life, especially in the heat of the moment. I think it points to how much he has been trained to shoot fast and effectively, which is how you get cases like Wright or the other kid who was killed (apologize for not having his name right now). He definitely shot her like he had military experience.

    I think taking him off the streets is appropriate and there being an investigation. I think that's always appropriate though when an officer is involved in a high stress call whether they acted appropriately or not. It's important to follow through and for their mental health. Not rotating police out is how you get high strung officers who start pulling their gun on everything or beating up old ladies.

    But this isn't a case of cop vs knife wielder. Where it's just them vs someone without a third party in danger. Where the cop is just afraid to deal with a long call or tussle. It was an incident of active assault with a deadly weapon. What's even sadder is that apparently Ma'Khia was the one who was initially attacked (before the call), and someone that age in that state of mind probably isn't going to lucid enough in the situation to ditch the knife when cops show up. She was still hot and angry in fight mode from (according to what I read but can't find anything to back that up) getting jumped.

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  13. #19113
    eschatological linked this a while back--guy fired at six cops, and put *four* bullets in one of them, and was taken in with a black eye: https://www.audacy.com/wben/articles...oting-officers

    I think we've become so used to incidents where there's no weapon, or it's in the back, or their hands are already up (not to mention the cop-friendly gaslighting that has controlled these narratives up until relatively recently, or the fact that they kill so many of us every year), that people now think force is warranted over even moderate threats and forget there *are* other ways for dealing with these situations where no one dies at a cop's hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Until then, I honestly don't care about anything else much. Until then it can all burn down to the ground for all I care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Yeah, I think it's fair to conclude that "Fuck the poor" "Arch-angel of Riots" is just in it with the hope of inflicting maximum harm for maximum chaos, and since they've shown no particular attachment to any guiding moral, ideological, or political principle, it seems to be for the sake of maximum fun.

  14. #19114
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    eschatological linked this a while back--guy fired at six cops, and put *four* bullets in one of them, and was taken in with a black eye: https://www.audacy.com/wben/articles...oting-officers

    I think we've become so used to incidents where there's no weapon, or it's in the back, or their hands are already up (not to mention the cop-friendly gaslighting that has controlled these narratives up until relatively recently, or the fact that they kill so many of us every year), that people now think force is warranted over even moderate threats and forget there *are* other ways for dealing with these situations where no one dies at a cop's hands.
    Comparing this situation to the Bryant situation is utterly ridiculous if you even do a modicum of research into the details of how this guy was apprehended with only a black eye.

  15. #19115
    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    Comparing this situation to the Bryant situation is utterly ridiculous if you even do a modicum of research into the details of how this guy was apprehended with only a black eye.
    "After shooting Ljiljanich and at other officers, the shooter fled again into his car and down Morgan Street. During the police pursuit, shots were again fired towards other officers. The gunman threw his rifle out the window near Kohler Street. It was near there when police rammed into the backside of the car, stopping it.

    Police arrested the gunman after the car stopped."

    I think the technical term is--and I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly--whiteness?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Until then, I honestly don't care about anything else much. Until then it can all burn down to the ground for all I care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Yeah, I think it's fair to conclude that "Fuck the poor" "Arch-angel of Riots" is just in it with the hope of inflicting maximum harm for maximum chaos, and since they've shown no particular attachment to any guiding moral, ideological, or political principle, it seems to be for the sake of maximum fun.

  16. #19116
    Quote Originally Posted by Karreck View Post
    I have to agree. I don't like that a teenager is dead, but I can not fault the officer in this situation. We can armchair quarterback about de-escalation techniques, tasers, or pepper spray, but that training issue runs deeper than this singular situation. I don't believe the officer showed malice or ineptitude here.

    Now the reports of his fellows officers taunting crowds with "Blue Lives Matter", that it much more troubling for me here, as that shows direct and intentional disrespect and disregard.
    That's why it's useful to have the conversation about a singular situation and contrast it with more nuanced situations and also more obviously bad situations. Like, I want to be damn sure people with me on police reform can actual conceive of and confront situations where the cop has little choice about what to do.

    I want better training and decision making for cops. I don't think a future uber-mensch police force rolls up like the video (and please watch the video) and has a solution that protects the almost-victim of a stabbing attack, and preserves the life of the stabber.
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  17. #19117
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    How is shooting in public, for public safety? I’d like to remind you, that even police chases in crowded areas are called off for public safety. I think the threat of being shot, is far more relevant to day to day interaction of police, than shooting for public safety.
    I've seen plenty of takes today where they justify the shooting by saying he was trying to save a life... by squeezing off four 9mm rounds at a target less than 12 inches next to her.

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  18. #19118
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    This is America.
    No, This is America.


  19. #19119
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    That's why it's useful to have the conversation about a singular situation and contrast it with more nuanced situations and also more obviously bad situations. Like, I want to be damn sure people with me on police reform can actual conceive of and confront situations where the cop has little choice about what to do.

    I want better training and decision making for cops. I don't think a future uber-mensch police force rolls up like the video (and please watch the video) and has a solution that protects the almost-victim of a stabbing attack, and preserves the life of the stabber.
    I agree. Nobody wants a 16 year old girl to get killed regardless of which side of the police debate you stand on, but in this particular instance in which it was her or a dead victim, he did the right thing. Death or permanent disfigurement was within a 30 second window, far more tragic a story someone be stabbed and murdered.

  20. #19120
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    You can just admit you forgot tazers exist rather than embarrassing yourself, you know.

    Boot leather must be mighty tasty.

    Tazers don't always stop someone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Again, are you under the impression that using a sidearm doesn't also have a significant failure rate?
    Just curious. What is the failure rate compared to tasers?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You realize the NRA and other lobby groups have campaigned for decades to prevent exactly that research, to provide exactly this kind of cover, right?

    Of course you do. You just rely on the disinformation propaganda to hide your tracks.

    Again; do you think officers always hit their target with every bullet? And does a single bullet stop a suspect every time? If you'll admit that's not the case, then you've admitted that handguns have a significant failure rate, too.

    Hell, why do cops often shoot more than once? Failure rate. This isn't a difficult concept.

    Then what are you basing "significant failure rate" on? You are usually better than this Endus.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post




    Man, truly there's nothing that can be done other than resort to deadly violence. Truly.

    I mean don't get me wrong. I'm all for more non lethal options. but lets not compare apples to oranges. In both of those videos not 1 innocent cilivian was in direct dangers from either of those people. Got any videos where police disarm someone already starting to go for the stab on someone?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    So, moving goalposts, then.

    This started with how long he had to assess the situation. Now you want to limit it to a smaller segment of that, because you were wrong about the original claim and can't defend it.

    At what point did she start to show intent on stabbing someone. How was he to assess that before she moved?
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