Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Endus]

Again, facts cannot disagree; they simply exist. People who use them do.

You're being deliberately obtuse.

What is meant by "the facts don't agree with you" is that your argument does not agree with the facts, which means your argument is objectively, determinably false and thus, without merit.

Yes, it's completely irrelevant to the true point that both helped people. Before shooting and being shot, respectively.

There's no reason to bring that up, other than an attempt to carry water for and defend a murderer.

Include them then. I have seen nothing incriminating from any of his social media mentions, and "guilt by association" is quite weak given that he wasn't normally part of that group.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...oting/2329610/

Just for example. Posting "blue lives matter" content, for instance, demonstrates a history of white supremacism and support for police brutality.

Such information was also referenced by the charging documents, though the DA's office is keeping that information close to the vest, until trial, apparently.

[jonnysensible]

Good fash tracker map

http://web.pdx.edu/~aross/incidents/incidents.html

[Shalcker]

So he didn't shoot, at least we could get to that point finally?

Never denied that. That is not answer to the question i asked though.

As you said yourself, the picture earlier was from before any gun was pulled on Kyle.

It was literally two seconds before he pulled a gun.

And please tell me, what was Kyle doing at that point? Sitting on the ground, squarely pointing his gun at Gaige? Mind you, it's been shown that Gaige had a concealed gun, so Kyle had literally no reason to be pointing a gun at him like that in the first place when he's walking up to him with his hands up.

Kyle was just attacked by a guy with skateboard; he turned gun to another potential approaching attacker, and turned gun back down once that one raised his hands and backed away.

Then this paramedic pulled a gun and lunged forward, and Kyle risen his rifle back up and shot hand with a gun.

Mind you, I can't find a single source saying he did pull a gun on him in the first place,

It's rather gruesome image, but in photos of his hand right after gunshot it still holds the gun.

but regardless, there was only one person who actually did the firing from their gun and also had the gun pulled in the first place. That's not self defense. Self defense would be taking the gun out after, like you claim Gaige did.

I'm not interested in another round of "what is or isn't self-defense" (it probably approaches hundreds of pages in this thread already) ; i'm more interested in similarities between them (namely, having a gun at protests/riots, and helping people (including holding "help people" job) ).

[Jester Joe]

Never denied that. That is not answer to the question i asked though.

It was literally two seconds before he pulled a gun.

Kyle was just attacked by a guy with skateboard; he turned gun to another potential approaching attacker, and turned gun back down once that one raised his hands and backed away.

Then this paramedic pulled a gun, and Kyle risen his rifle back up and shot hand with a gun.

It's rather gruesome image, but in photos of his hand right after gunshot it still holds the gun.

I'm not interested in another round of "what is or isn't self-defense" (it probably approaches hundreds of pages in this thread already) ; i'm more interested in similarities between them (namely, having a gun at protests/riots, and helping people (including holding "help people" job) ).

You're conveniently ignoring that Gaige was there already helping the wounded. He approached someone who he thought was wounded and needed help. Arms up. Showing that he isn't a threat.

Kyle still had a gun pointed at him, instead of lowering. And you're faulting someone for possibly pointing a gun at that person in self defense.

Which again, not a single article mentions this happening. As easy as I'm sure it is to call "BIAS!" on the sites, at least one should have. Is it possible he did? Sure. But that would take ignoring why he would pull a gun out or who shot first to try to paint them as being "the same".

But again, there's a reason why one is in jail, and the other isn't. And you can hardly try to criticize one for pulling a gun out, and then go "I'm not interested in self defense!". Cherrypicking isn't a way to prove your point. You can't selectively pick what happened to try to prove your point. Whether you want to believe they're similar or not, your opinion doesn't hold up to what actually happened.

Gaige was there, and helped treat injured.

Kyle was there, and he murdered people with a gun he legally shouldn't have had.

[postman1782]

What's dishonest here is trying to draw a comparison between the two.

One is trained to actually help as a paramedic and had a permit. The other is a kid who decided to march into another state with an illegal gun.

Don't even try to say they're the "exact copy" with a straight face.

You know, with you being a mod, you should be able to take out the Russian guy that apparently seems to be paid to lie like he is.

[unfilteredJW]

You know, with you being a mod, you should be able to take out the Russian guy that apparently seems to be paid to lie like he is.

It's better to let him lie and put him in his place.

Now everyone knows he's a liar. Well, the new people.

[Shalcker]

You're conveniently ignoring that Gaige was there already helping the wounded. He approached someone who he thought was wounded and needed help. Arms up. Showing that he isn't a threat.

Nope, he only raised arms and backed away after shot that killed second victim was fired and gun was roughly moved in his direction - though it looks like more of a swiping motion and it was never trained at him.

Kyle still had a gun pointed at him, instead of lowering. And you're faulting someone for possibly pointing a gun at that person in self defense.

Re-checking it - entire interaction takes about 2 seconds total from approaching to being shot after pulling a gun. Kyle moves gun away already (you don't see it from angle used in the article, but can see it clearly in video here); and then right after gun is moved away paramedic pulls his own gun and lunges forward, which gets him shot.

Which again, not a single article mentions this happening.

Yes, it is quite sad how hard US articles try to filter things nowadays.

As easy as I'm sure it is to call "BIAS!" on the sites, at least one should have. Is it possible he did? Sure.

Check video and see for yourself.

Here is article that uses image of him with a gun after being shot.

But that would take ignoring why he would pull a gun out or who shot first to try to paint them as being "the same".

If it's interesting to you you can discuss it. Sure, why? And of course Kyle shot first, that's obvious.

I'm interested in situations where people who do not intend to become killers and victims (as far as i see, due to guns being around), and you might help with understanding "why" from Grosskreutz side. How exactly having guns around justificies using them for someone who went there as paramedic.

But again, there's a reason why one is in jail, and the other isn't. And you can hardly try to criticize one for pulling a gun out, and then go "I'm not interested in self defense!". Cherrypicking isn't a way to prove your point. You can't selectively pick what happened to try to prove your point. Whether you want to believe they're similar or not, your opinion doesn't hold up to what actually happened.

Where do i criticize anything??? Both did commendable acts and helped people. Then they met with guns drawn and got shot.

Gaige was there, and helped treat injured.
Kyle was there, and he murdered people with a gun he legally shouldn't have had.

Why do you need to create false dichotomy out of it?

[Noxx79]

By now we all know the truth that he couldnt breath before anothing happened because to much drugs.

Nah, he died because a police officer knelt on him. Why do you lie, liar?

[Krastyn]

That's quite a complaint coming as it does from the folk carrying water for police by equating the word 'rioter' with stripping protesters of their First and Fourth Amendment protections. *sips tea*

Where did I say the protests weren't allowed to be there (aside from if they want to violate the curfew)? Want to protest? Protest.

Tfw you bend backwards defending the cops so hard you enter "defund the police" territory, lol.

Where, literally anywhere in this thread, have I defended the cops? They're not even involved in what I've been discussing.

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Show me a single case using that “loophole”... you are arguing that details are not in, but he will use a hunting law, because you think it’s relevant and won’t be tossed out by the judge on the ridiculous nature of hunting humans. That’s called hypocrite...

Just because it hasn't been challenged doesn't make it legitimate. How many 17 year olds have been charged and convicted under this law in Wisconsin?

Than why do we need cops?

Why do we bother having people trained in first aid? Why do we lock our doors? Why do communities form community watch groups (armed or unarmed)?

Why do you have a problem with people doing what they are allowed to do, as long as it is within the law?

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Rittenhouse was not part of that community, so it also does not apply.

Define that community.

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Because he purposely put himself into a situation where he had to claim self defense. As Felya, succinctly said it is “premeditated self defense.”

He literally ran away. There was no situation he "put himself into". His mere presence there does not mean he created a premeditated self defense. If I choose to walk through a dangerous part of town on my way home from work, does that mean I forfeit my right to self defense because it was premeditated that I went through there. If the criteria is met for self defense, it is justified.

Nothing has been shown that Rosenbaum had any right to chase him (feeling unsafe about gun is not a legal reason)
It has been shown that a threat was imminent (by Rosenbaum chasing him, and previously having thrown an object at him)
What this is going to come down to, is if the defense can show if it was reasonable for Rittenhouse to think he would have suffered serious bodily injury or worse had he not shot Rosenbaum. Everything else you're complaining about is irrelevant.

He didn’t happen upon the situation. He was neither asked nor paid to be there by any property owner or government entity or the community. He went there with express intent of putting himself into harm’s way. And did it all that while illegally armed and wearing gloves. The fled the scene and state.

So aside from the curfew law, which literally everyone else was violating, what law specifically prevents him from being there?

It's illegal to wear gloves now?

[Bodakane]

He literally ran away. There was no situation he "put himself into". His mere presence there does not mean he created a premeditated self defense. If I choose to walk through a dangerous part of town on my way home from work, does that mean I forfeit my right to self defense because it was premeditated that I went through there. If the criteria is met for self defense, it is justified.

Nothing has been shown that Rosenbaum had any right to chase him (feeling unsafe about gun is not a legal reason)
It has been shown that a threat was imminent (by Rosenbaum chasing him, and previously having thrown an object at him)
What this is going to come down to, is if the defense can show if it was reasonable for Rittenhouse to think he would have suffered serious bodily injury or worse had he not shot Rosenbaum. Everything else you're complaining about is irrelevant.

The sheer intellectual dishonesty of trying to say:

walking home through a bad part of town = illegally arming yourself, crossing state lines, to go to a protest while wearing latex gloves telling an interviewer you're there to "put myself into harm's way" all while with an armed white nationalist militia the likes of which go to these protests specifically to start violence per the FBI, then shooting three people

...is fucking staggering and you should be straight up ashamed of yourself.

[jonnysensible]

CNN confirms that Gaige Grosskreutz doesn't have a felony record, was legally allowed to carry his licensed handgun when approaching Kyle Rittenhouse, who had just shot & killed 2 people

Rittenhouse supporters have spread lies for weeks about Grosskreutz.


first off whats up with these peoples names, 2nd off i guess the kyle stans think only he should have 2A rights...

[postman1782]

CNN confirms that Gaige Grosskreutz doesn't have a felony record, was legally allowed to carry his licensed handgun when approaching Kyle Rittenhouse, who had just shot & killed 2 people

Rittenhouse supporters have spread lies for weeks about Grosskreutz.


first off whats up with these peoples names, 2nd off i guess the kyle stans think only he should have 2A rights...

Not entirely surprising. He could have shot Rittenhouse, and would have been well within his rights.

[Felya]

Just because it hasn't been challenged doesn't make it legitimate. How many 17 year olds have been charged and convicted under this law in Wisconsin?

It literally doesn’t make it legitimate. Anyone can make up a loophole, it’s legitimacy is defined by actual ruling. Without it being chalked, you are literally just making shit up.

[Deus Mortis]

Mind you, I can't find a single source saying he did pull a gun on him in the first place,

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/u...ing-video.html
22-23 second mark in the video under the second "Second Shooting"
Use Incognito to bypass New York Times paywall.

I mean did you even try to find a source because it was pretty fucking easy?

[omeomorfismo]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/u...ing-video.html
22-23 second mark in the video under the second "Second Shooting"
Use Incognito to bypass New York Times paywall.

I mean did you even try to find a source because it was pretty fucking easy?

he literally put the gun behind his hand and let the murderer watch it. thats not pointing the murderer in any way

[KaPe]

Not entirely surprising. He could have shot Rittenhouse, and would have been well within his rights.

Imagine the logic twisting we'd see in that case. Normally, it would be "good guy with a gun shot a bad guy with a gun"... but the "bad guy" was a white vigilante during BLM protests and (according to said logic) was only "defending" himself. However, there's yet another but, where the kid has just killed another person and was trying to escape the scene, while being ignored by the police.

I have no doubt some people would still swear that Rittenhouse was in the right and kept looking for any dirt on Grosskreutz.

[postman1782]

Imagine the logic twisting we'd see in that case. Normally, it would be "good guy with a gun shot a bad guy with a gun"... but the "bad guy" was a white vigilante during BLM protests and (according to said logic) was only "defending" himself. However, there's yet another but, where the kid has just killed another person and was trying to escape the scene, while being ignored by the police.

I have no doubt some people would still swear that Rittenhouse was in the right and kept looking for any dirt on Grosskreutz.

They think that any victim's past, is a thing that you can use against the victim to rationalize the murder.

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he literally put the gun behind his hand and let the murderer watch it. thats not pointing the murderer in any way

Which is why he got the attempted murder charge.

[omeomorfismo]

Which is why he got the attempted murder charge.

Grosskreutz?

[postman1782]

Grosskreutz?

No, Rittenhouse. He got First Degree murder, 2nd degree murder, Attempted murder, 2 reckless endangerment charges and and the illegal weapon for an underage kid.

[JohnBrown1917]

CNN confirms that Gaige Grosskreutz doesn't have a felony record, was legally allowed to carry his licensed handgun when approaching Kyle Rittenhouse, who had just shot & killed 2 people

Rittenhouse supporters have spread lies for weeks about Grosskreutz.


first off whats up with these peoples names, 2nd off i guess the kyle stans think only he should have 2A rights...

Brownshirts spreading lies on purpose, I wonder why.