WTF happened after 8.1.5?

[Raisei]

Well to be fair, that's one of the reasons why MOBAs and eventually Battle Royales rose to prominence, while WoW and MMOs as a whole declined.

Someone back in mid to late 2000s realized that you don't have to do menial crap to prepare to having fun, you can instead jump right in and have that fun right away. It is a very valid point is why 2020 is the way it is for worse and for the better too.

It's just WoW is not such a game and people have hard time realizing that.

It is probably a mark of the changing times yes. Working for something is going out of fashion, because the millenial crowd demands instant gratification if they so much as push a button. It does not bode well for our society.

[Zantera]

8.2 was legitimately among the best patches WoW had ever, if not THE best.

I really liked the content it brought but personally I thought it was too much. I was probably playing 10 hours per day for the first few weeks because with Mechagon, Nazjatar (all the daily stuff that came with those) and everything else it just felt like too much. Personally I like it more if there's only 1 new daily hub per patch. But with that said I definitely think it was a great patch.

[Gaidax]

It is probably a mark of the changing times yes. Working for something is going out of fashion, because the millenial crowd demands instant gratification if they so much as push a button. It does not bode well for our society.

Frankly? I think your notion is a bunch of baloney.

Games are entertainment, it's totally ok to have games that offer instant access to fun as opposed to mandating a chain of uneventful activities on a way to having fun. If anything realization of these simple truths bodes well for our society, because people suddenly start opening their minds and realizing you don't have to do mundane shit to achieve your goals.

MMOs in that respect got stuck in the past and are paying the price for it.

- - - Updated - - -

Ultimately, I think the faster some people realize that it's ok to not turn "entertainment" and "recreation" into "work" - the better for everyone. But that's a topic outside the scope of this thread.

WoW is lost on that, simply because it's a 2004 game setup in 2004 mindset and it won't suddenly become a MOBA with 15 minutes flat of leveling and power gathering phase before you are at the pinnacle.

[WowIsDead64]

It is probably a mark of the changing times yes. Working for something is going out of fashion, because the millenial crowd demands instant gratification if they so much as push a button. It does not bode well for our society.

May be that's because games exist to have fun, not to be 2nd job? May be that's ok to play game, that is more like job, if you're kid. But it's not ok for adults, who already have jobs. There is age, when you realize, how economy actually works. You do your job, thing, you can do the best, earn money and then trade with other people, who do the same. Everybody wins. I.e. you don't have to "work for" and "earn" everything. If you want something, but you can't "work for" or "earn" it - you can just buy it. That's, how adults' logic works. If you can't afford game, that is 2nd job - just buy things via money, you've earned via your real-life job. Game doesn't allow you to do this? It goes to hell, you know.

[Felkor]

As a returning / new character, you've got a lot of things to do at max level.
But honestly, it isn't that terrible.

- The necklace will go straight to 80 in less than a week doing the questlines / emissaries.
- Azerite gear can be obtained relatively quickly for a good ilvl. BIS Azerite gear will require more time.
- Gear catchup is kind of fast. You can ben 440+ in less than 3 days, 460 in less than 2 weeks, which puts you above a vast fraction of the players, honestly.
- Corruptions : they used to be the major culprit, but now you will earn currency doing activities you're doing anyway for other purposes to buy them. So there is not an additionnal grind here.
- Legendary Cloak : The "grind" here is to do 3 assault per week, and maybe the minor vision. It's the most time-gated catchup through vessels, but that's only fair from my point of view, you will eventually catchup in the long term, but the difference isn't that huge.
- Essences : If you go on the first guide, just check your 3 BIS essences, and farm for only that, you can be upset by the time it take. However, even if yes, there are outlier, it's pretty quick to obtain 4 essences rank 2/3 which will provide a major boost to your character.
If an essence is a HUGE mandatory for your spec (looking at you, Memory of Lucid dream), optimise your farm to obtain it more quickly, and that's it. The Rank 3 of Memory of Lucid Dream, for exemple, can be obtained in 5 days, but you'll see a lot of players complaining about the 3 weeks it took them.

Having a character mostly up-to-date, with working essences, is not that big of a deal. If you're aiming to obtain full BIS Azerite Pieces / BIS Essences / BIS Corruptions / BIS Trinkets, yes, it will take you a LOT of time. But you can narrow the gap pretty easily.

And, what's the alternative ?
If we go back in a WOW-era where at the end of an expac, you'll run one raid et few instances, and you're patched up, how do you think the community will consider the expansion with the mindset of 2020 ? Look at Warlord of Draenor.
I don't mind having to play to progress my character. It's a RPG-based game, not a MOBA-based game.

The point where I can agree is "I don't want to play this content to obtain this reward which is mandatory". I can feel you, but that's how WOW is working now, and has worked in the past (PVE gear better than PVP gear for PVP has always being a thing a moment or another), and will work in the future.

[justandulas]

It’s why I prefer classic until shadowlands. An upgrade is an upgrade and I don’t need to juggle 5 different systems to stay relevant. Systems, btw, that aren’t permanent and are just rented per expansion... again. Zzzz. Bad game design

[Jazzhands]

So I quit playing around 8.1.5 because well the game sucked lets be honest.

I wanted to come back to kill some time just doing arenas with my buddy, only to find out that to even stand a chance in pvp I basically have to do max level questing (which i despise) for 10-15+ hours just to stand any chance in pvp on ONE CHARACTER (I play lots of alts)

WTF happened to this game? Why are they make it so difficult and grindy for people who just want to pvp and not do any questing get back into the game?

The problem is largely that PVP and PVE can't really co-exist in MMOs, one or the other will always have the spotlight, and in WoW that's PVE, and it's always been a PVE focused game regardless of how much PVP happens or is available. PVE being the focus, it gets most of the new stuff including anything power related. If your main focus is PVP, I'd recommend not playing a PVE based game with a PVP side game.

It goes both ways though, most classes I played needed Conflict and Strife, an essence that requires grinding PVP, and I'd rather punch myself in the crotch than take part in WoWs pvp for more than like 15 minutes to get a free piece of gear on an alt. It's awful.

I'm curious, how could Blizzard implement a PVE based power increasing system, and make it not detrimental for new players without it or something PVPers may want? With so many specs and abilities, synergy with items is bound to happen, and any power gain is going to put returning/new players further behind, but it's necessary to keep the game going.

Also, if you only want to play half the content, you should only expect to get half of the stuff that's available through it. Simple as that. Except in WoW, PVE is about 95% of the content so, yeah. The trend of reps/power locked behind world quests/dailies/weeklies and all that is only going to continue, Blizzard doesn't want people to move back into the game as easily anymore as odd as that sounds, the game is designed to keep players enticed with a bunch of carrots on sticks instead of just feeding them, and make them reluctant to leave so they don't fall behind, and make it so returning players get a slow but steady stream of dopamine releasing power increases instead of just grinding it all out in a night or two, so they stay subbed for longer because all that dopamine is locked behind daily quests.

[mojusk]

its kinda how wow has always worked.. if you dont play for a year, you cant just jump back in at be on a even playingfield immediately.. theres tons of catch up, so youll get the stuff A LOT faster than those you played the whole year you didnt.

[WowIsDead64]

As a returning / new character, you've got a lot of things to do at max level.
But honestly, it isn't that terrible.

- The necklace will go straight to 80 in less than a week doing the questlines / emissaries.
- Azerite gear can be obtained relatively quickly for a good ilvl. BIS Azerite gear will require more time.
- Gear catchup is kind of fast. You can ben 440+ in less than 3 days, 460 in less than 2 weeks, which puts you above a vast fraction of the players, honestly.
- Corruptions : they used to be the major culprit, but now you will earn currency doing activities you're doing anyway for other purposes to buy them. So there is not an additionnal grind here.
- Legendary Cloak : The "grind" here is to do 3 assault per week, and maybe the minor vision. It's the most time-gated catchup through vessels, but that's only fair from my point of view, you will eventually catchup in the long term, but the difference isn't that huge.
- Essences : If you go on the first guide, just check your 3 BIS essences, and farm for only that, you can be upset by the time it take. However, even if yes, there are outlier, it's pretty quick to obtain 4 essences rank 2/3 which will provide a major boost to your character.
If an essence is a HUGE mandatory for your spec (looking at you, Memory of Lucid dream), optimise your farm to obtain it more quickly, and that's it. The Rank 3 of Memory of Lucid Dream, for exemple, can be obtained in 5 days, but you'll see a lot of players complaining about the 3 weeks it took them.

Having a character mostly up-to-date, with working essences, is not that big of a deal. If you're aiming to obtain full BIS Azerite Pieces / BIS Essences / BIS Corruptions / BIS Trinkets, yes, it will take you a LOT of time. But you can narrow the gap pretty easily.

And, what's the alternative ?
If we go back in a WOW-era where at the end of an expac, you'll run one raid et few instances, and you're patched up, how do you think the community will consider the expansion with the mindset of 2020 ? Look at Warlord of Draenor.
I don't mind having to play to progress my character. It's a RPG-based game, not a MOBA-based game.

The point where I can agree is "I don't want to play this content to obtain this reward which is mandatory". I can feel you, but that's how WOW is working now, and has worked in the past (PVE gear better than PVP gear for PVP has always being a thing a moment or another), and will work in the future.

Theoretically. My practice doesn't confirm it.

[Rotted]

Because they don’t care about those people. They only care about people who compulsively log in every day to fill a bar. That is Blizzard’s target audience now.

Oh you mean the customers they have the greater chance of retaining? Well shit

[justandulas]

Is it though?

So you want to tell me that if Blizzard would not add any meaningful content for a year plus then they would have more subs?

Where do I insert Juan Joya Borja laughing meme here again?

It is and classic is probably keeping WoW afloat

Imagine how low the subs would be without classic propping it up

[Jazzhands]

It is and classic is probably keeping WoW afloat

Imagine how low the subs would be without classic propping it up

Imagine being this delusional. Covid is propping up both.

Classic is also still unlocking content. It's not "New", but it kind of is. It's been unavailable, and now it's back.

[Laughingjack]

Oh you mean the customers they have the greater chance of retaining? Well shit

I honestly wonder what wow's playerbase looks like these days. I can't imagine the attrition rate looks good unless style of playing really did take off in legion.

[Raisei]

Frankly? I think your notion is a bunch of baloney.

Games are entertainment, it's totally ok to have games that offer instant access to fun as opposed to mandating a chain of uneventful activities on a way to having fun. If anything realization of these simple truths bodes well for our society, because people suddenly start opening their minds and realizing you don't have to do mundane shit to achieve your goals.

MMOs in that respect got stuck in the past and are paying the price for it.

May be that's because games exist to have fun, not to be 2nd job? May be that's ok to play game, that is more like job, if you're kid. But it's not ok for adults, who already have jobs. There is age, when you realize, how economy actually works. You do your job, thing, you can do the best, earn money and then trade with other people, who do the same. Everybody wins. I.e. you don't have to "work for" and "earn" everything. If you want something, but you can't "work for" or "earn" it - you can just buy it. That's, how adults' logic works. If you can't afford game, that is 2nd job - just buy things via money, you've earned via your real-life job. Game doesn't allow you to do this? It goes to hell, you know.

By that logic any and all sports are not for recreation, since in most of them you try to get better and you do put effort in before you reach the point where it is really fun, you train and invest time and sweat to improve. You do not just join a team for say football and immediatedly expect to win against a team of pros just because you paid the entrance fee. You do not come into team and when the coach tells you to do sit-ups throw a tantrum because you only came to have fun.

Both sports and games exist to have fun (and both have the option to go professional) but that does not mean that you get to do them without effort.

If you just want pure entertainment without lifting a finger there are movies to watch and crisps to eat. Which is fine enough, but does it hold the same engagement as a game that gives me the option to apply myself as much as I want to improve my characters as much as I want? Nope, definately not.

It's fine to skip the daily grind to do other things, I do it most days as well by now. What I just find ridiculously is the demand of people to be able to skip everything they do not like and receive the same rewards as the part of the game population that does everything. More effort should absolutely be rewarded more, lazyness should never be rewarded.
What the OP is asking here is basically that everyone that played the last 1,5 years gets shafted because he feels he deserves to be rewarded for the supreme effort of logging in.


And if playing the game is such a bother for you that you feel it is like a second job, then it is probably time to move on. I am working full time and I still managed to gear my main character to Mythic level with BiS Essences and BiS Corruption and I had fun doing it, it was certainly not the same as being at work.

[Chonar]

Only PVP? Why would you only play a single minigame in WoW? Have you considered Pet Battles instead?

[Nevcairiel]

Legion, until you got the right legendaries.
[...]
In BFA it’s grind essences or you suck.

Its funny how there is such a cognitive dissonance here. Legendaries in Legion were entirely RNG, and if you didn't have them, you also sucked. And yet, you present it as something that was easily completed.

On the other hand in BfA, essences are mostly deterministic and can be fully targeted and farmed with purpose. And once you have them, you are done. I haven't done dailies in months.

So, at worst its similar to farming something and being done once you have it, and at best its actually better, since you can directly farm them without any RNG.

[Onikaroshi]

Yeah, um... you're ignoring the giant amount of work you have to do on essences and your cloak etc to be remotely competitive. Disingenuous post. And btw - see the post above. Cloak takes freaking forever when you ding at item level 260, you don't know your way around and have no azerite gear or essences to speak of.

I've done it on freshly dinged characters, it's nowhere near that bad. If you're trying to do it at 260 that's your own fault when cheap 400 gear is available.

- - - Updated - - -

Well have fun grinding corruptions afterwards, especially if OP wants to be competitive in pvp. Because good luck without.

Grinding =/= questing, the guy is complaining about questing.

Honestly though, corruptions should have been deactivated in pvp, as well as azerite traits and gear in general, pvp should be purely about skill vs skill, not who has the most shinies.

[vaeevictiss]

Ya, everyone was so psyched when you could purchase corruption and i absolutely hate it. I ended up running visions 11 times last week just to get two expedients. Now that you get echoes from everything its like having to start the xpac all over with the amount of farming/grinding you have to do. I remember when endgame raiding was that time to chill before the next xpac came out.

Now my guild is working on mythic n'zoth, i have practically all BIS gear and now with this corruption shit i feel like im back at the bottom again and having to do dumb shit like daily quests every day to be able to catch back up. This was just a dumb thing to add in at the end of the xpac.

[Mardux]

Because they don’t care about those people. They only care about people who compulsively log in every day to fill a bar. That is Blizzard’s target audience now.

Their target is MAUs. Not people who log in every day... do you not pay attention to anything blizzard does?

[Hellobolis]

PvP and PvE should be largely separate. A player can enjoy both, but often players lean much more towards enjoying one rather than the other. Forcing people to do both only cause people to lose interest.

Imagine if the game forced everyone to PvP. But it doesn't, does it? PvE'rs would have a field day crying about that.

sure it does.

right now several specs have their best azerite from high rated pvp.
right now pvp is the best way to farm echoes.
right now a bis essence for a lot of people is from honor grind or arena rating.
and at the beginning of the patch conquest cap was pretty mandatory for pvers too.

sure people complain about that, but by and large they also just suck it up and get it over with cause they know that's just how the game is from time to time.

and yeah, pvp usually gets the short end of the stick in this regard, but it's primarily a pve game at the end of the day.