Thread: Off the GCD?

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  1. #61
    It is curious that you think I am entitled for the simple reason that I am prepared to defend my viewpoints with examples and reasoning.

    I find it curious as well that you think I am opposed to TBC and Wrath kits. I think you are misreading my position so let me be clear. I have played Rogue since I started playing WoW in early 2005. I have played Rogue in every expansion and while I have played every class at some point Rogue has always been my main and 99% of my playtime.

    I'll add that I am NOT playing BFA currently but I am playing classic. I am eagerly looking forward to TBC and already leveling multiple alt Rogues to be prepared to play TBC arenas with multiple teams.

    Furthermore, MoP is NOT my favorite expansion. The most fun I had playing Rogue was in TBC, Wrath, Cata, and WoD (oooh I'm sure you will be upset about that last one). I think there are pros and cons to each of these. I particularly miss the old Vanish interaction with spell batching and thought it was a great loss when that was removed in Cata.

    As for the combo points change, I'm not going to lie to you and tell you that I think it's terrible in every way -- there are advantages and disadvantages. I liked the gameplay of strategically using multiple DRs on multiple targets to slow down the enemy openers while putting up SnD and Recup to avoid losing combo points while switching targets. I particularly miss the variety in finishers we used to possess and the strategy that went into choosing when to use each one.

    But the new CP system isn't all bad, either. There are increased opportunities to use Focus and Arena123 macros, which I've enjoyed. But would I be sad if we reverted to the old combo points system? No, not all. The pruning is a much bigger deal for me personally.

    I won't assume that this is your position without your confirmation, but as a general trend I've noticed that many Rogues who miss the old CP system tend to blame the self-buff CPs for the Legion prune. I am not convinced of that position for several reasons. First of all, I haven't seen any evidence in the form of ladder data that WoD Subtlety was particularly OP, so I am skeptical of the argument that the Legion prune was a necessary nerf due to the CP change.

    Secondly, I've carefully studied Blizzard's language about pruning and class redesigns and the fact is they haven't once mentioned combo points change in regards to pruning justification. Their justification of pruning has always centered around, "the game was too confusing for new players, we had to cut the size of spellbooks", "we want to make Subtlety Rogue appealing to a wider audience in Legion", "we want to enhance the fantasy of the Subtlety Rogue and make it more distinct from other Rogue specs", and the one statement they made which does reference character power (but not combo points) which was "we are making Shadow Dance active much more often so we have to prune some CCs to balance out the increased access to Cheap Shot".

    And it's that last point which is really the stickler.

    The change to combo points isn't the reason that you no longer have Garrote in your spellbook, not according to Blizzard's own statements at least. The changes to Shadow Dance on the other hand are the reason why. And removing the "charges" to Shadow Dance is not enough, as anyone with any degree of mathematical literacy knows that the cooldown reduction mechanic is a far bigger culprit in terms of making Shadow Dance available too often and therefore required nerfs to its damage as well as its utility. Again this isn't just my opinion, Blizzard confirmed it themselves via the WarcraftDevs Twitter account.

    Now in the interest of "bringing me to school" you've asked all kinds of questions and I'll be honest that I really don't give much of a damn about most of these, due to the fact that I don't give much of a damn about BFA. As already stated, I do not waste my time playing this trash expansion. Do I think the lack of variety in our openers is terrible? Yes, it's disgusting how scripted and one dimensional it has become. Bringing back Garrote would go a long way. (Premeditation would as well, and these are not mutually exclusive).
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  2. #62
    You're missing the point once more, can't see them even when laid in front of you, which is a shame.

    You confuse design with expansion, buttons with reasoning. If I was better at recognizing rhetorical fallacies we'd be over this by now I guess.

    Been nice arguing at least, up until a point. Hope TBC scratches your itch.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post

    If you want to argue that another design was better, provide some evidence or justification.
    More people played Sub in PvE. Which is not an argument which resonates with you, i'm sure.

    And you misunderstood me, as usual. I'm not insisting that subjective reasons for preference is a valid point of discussion, you are.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    More people played Sub in PvE. Which is not an argument which resonates with you, i'm sure.

    And you misunderstood me, as usual. I'm not insisting that subjective reasons for preference is a valid point of discussion, you are.
    Spread of usability is not a concern for shoegazing I think. His is a PvP only perspective, which is a point that can be argued about: specs having places in certain areas of the game only.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    You're missing the point once more, can't see them even when laid in front of you, which is a shame.

    You confuse design with expansion, buttons with reasoning. If I was better at recognizing rhetorical fallacies we'd be over this by now I guess.

    Been nice arguing at least, up until a point. Hope TBC scratches your itch.
    It's impossible to have any sort of discussion or argument with Shoegazer. As soon as one of your points deviates from his, even if it's just a little bit, and regardless of what it is, you are almost immediately wrong in his mind, no compromises. Only his vision of sub is the correct one.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Spread of usability is not a concern for shoegazing I think. His is a PvP only perspective, which is a point that can be argued about: specs having places in certain areas of the game only.
    And yet I play only PvE in classic currently. Interesting how so many people claim to know my perspective intimately yet get it so wrong.

    I do agree however that the mindset of "every spec needs to excel in every type of content" is killing the game. There are 36 different specs at this point. Allowing them to have different strengths and weaknesses is healthy. It's OK if some feel amazing in PvP while others feel amazing in M+.

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    More people played Sub in PvE. Which is not an argument which resonates with you, i'm sure.
    So if Subtlety was great in Legion due to its PvE popularity, was it not great in Dragon Soul and HFC tiers due to its PvE popularity + PvP popularity? This was achieved without any sort of radical reinvention or compromising of the core traditional gameplay of the spec for the audience which was already invested, in contrast with Legion which told the existing Subtlety Rogues to fuck off in order to make room for a new mostly PvE audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    It's impossible to have any sort of discussion or argument with Shoegazer. As soon as one of your points deviates from his, even if it's just a little bit, and regardless of what it is, you are almost immediately wrong in his mind, no compromises. Only his vision of sub is the correct one.
    I write paragraphs explaining my position in detail, while those responding to me continue to dodge and avoid engaging. Jackstraw insists that Premed and MfD can't coexist, despite the fact that they already did, while Ymirsson mocks the fairly straightforward stance that "Shadow Dance is the most exciting offensive CD in the game" but has to be asked 3-4 times to provide an example of a more exciting CD and when he does so, can't provide any supporting reasoning except for "it's my personal subjective preference" without describing why in any detail.

    Yet I am the one who is impossible to have a discussion with, somehow. As far as I can tell, I am the only person here discussing, while the rest of you just want to make personal attacks and talk about how mean, unreasonable, etc I am.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-06-28 at 03:27 AM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Yet I am the one who is impossible to have a discussion with, somehow. As far as I can tell, I am the only person here discussing, while the rest of you just want to make personal attacks and talk about how mean, unreasonable, etc I am.
    Yeah, equating my statement about an exciting CD gets me called out to play a autoclicker game, that sure is mature discussion.
    DO you actually believe the drivel you spout?

    And regarding the actual question: why would i need to specify exciting? I am excited when i press AotD, that was the very subjective qualifier we were talking about. Just like you can't specify why your arbitrary chosen Sub design from 2008 was the best. It's all opinion. You just suck at accepting other people's opinions.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Yeah, equating my statement about an exciting CD gets me called out to play a autoclicker game, that sure is mature discussion.
    DO you actually believe the drivel you spout?

    And regarding the actual question: why would i need to specify exciting? I am excited when i press AotD, that was the very subjective qualifier we were talking about. Just like you can't specify why your arbitrary chosen Sub design from 2008 was the best. It's all opinion. You just suck at accepting other people's opinions.
    I provided reasons why Shadow Dance is a better cooldown. It's highly interactive, more so than any other CD, and multi-dimensional. It's not about pushing Shadow Dance, it's about the buttons you get to push afterwards. You can Garrote somebody to apply a Silence effect AND Sanguinary Veins AND Find Weakness, or Cheap Shot to apply a stun AND Find Weakness AND generate 2cp for your Eviscerate burst, Ambush for more burst, Sap as an enemy drops combat. It presents the player with a plethora of options to choose from that change up the gameplay. If you were pressuring an enemy player and the healer trinketed Blind late and you read the situation and saw it coming and instantly Dance Sapped trinket, you would lose your mind with excitement.

    Yes these are both "subjective opinions" but not all opinions are created equal. I've justified mine by explaining the impact it has on gameplay and how it creates those moments of excitement. You've provided none of that for AotD. Just "well, it's exciting for me, I'm allowed to have my subjective preference". That's all you've got. Once again, I think you can do better.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-06-28 at 12:57 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post

    Yes these are both "subjective opinions" but not all opinions are created equal. I've justified mine by explaining the impact it has on gameplay and how it creates those moments of excitement. You've provided none of that for AotD. Just "well, it's exciting for me, I'm allowed to have my subjective preference". That's all you've got. Once again, I think you can do better.
    I could, but it is not necessary to fulfil the point of discussion. You asked about excitement, now you need 15 pages of scientific analysis or its invalid?

    not all opinions are created equal
    yeah, id say yours is about 3/5 worth of mine. i win.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    I could, but it is not necessary to fulfil the point of discussion. You asked about excitement, now you need 15 pages of scientific analysis or its invalid?



    yeah, id say yours is about 3/5 worth of mine. i win.
    Still not capable of justifying why you prefer AotD to Shadow Dance, I see... You might as well say that you love autoclickers and WoW should be more like an autoclicker because that's your preference... the argument you provided applies equally well in that case, which is exactly why it is vapid and empty. A line of reasoning that can be used to say anything, doesn't really say anything at all.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-06-28 at 01:56 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Still not capable of justifying why you prefer AotD to Shadow Dance, I see... You might as well say that you love autoclickers and WoW should be more like an autoclicker because that's your preference... the argument you provided applies equally well in that case, which is exactly why it is vapid and empty. A line of reasoning that can be used to say anything, doesn't really say anything at all.
    You were the one to bring subjectivity into this discussion. Now you're sad that i claim it as a suitable explanation? Shadowdance your head out of your behind, if you can, maybe it will help you to accept others people's opinions without shitting on them.

    Just because i think Aotd is a more exciting CD >FOR ME< then SD does not relate in any way to my intellectual capabilities. But i'm sure you will find a way to insinuate otherwise.

    Hey, lets start a rogue superiority movement and put all inferior classes into camps for reeducation!
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    You were the one to bring subjectivity into this discussion. Now you're sad that i claim it as a suitable explanation? Shadowdance your head out of your behind, if you can, maybe it will help you to accept others people's opinions without shitting on them.

    Just because i think Aotd is a more exciting CD >FOR ME< then SD does not relate in any way to my intellectual capabilities. But i'm sure you will find a way to insinuate otherwise.

    Hey, lets start a rogue superiority movement and put all inferior classes into camps for reeducation!
    STILL not providing any supporting reasoning WHY AotD is an exciting CD, I see.

    While I can write detailed paragraphs with gameplay examples about what makes Shadow Dance the most exciting and unique CD into the game, and you want to come into this thread to attack my stance on that and say that I'm wrong, but you STILL can't even provide the slightest amount of support for your differing position. Why even come in here to disagree if you don't have what it takes to back it up?

    And you think I'm "attacking your intellectual capabilities" while I am the one insisting you are capable of doing so much better and that I expect more from you of all posters on this forum!
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-06-28 at 02:56 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    STILL not providing any supporting reasoning WHY AotD is an exciting CD, I see.

    While I can write detailed paragraphs with gameplay examples about what makes Shadow Dance the most exciting and unique CD into the game, and you want to come into this thread to attack my stance on that and say that I'm wrong, but you STILL can't even provide the slightest amount of support for your differing position.
    Where did i say you were wrong? I said you should hopefully be able to differentiate your personal opinion from a fact.

    Support for my position? I am excited when i press Army, that makes it literally an exciting button to press.
    This does in no way take away from your favorite button, this is not a zero sum game.

    You feeling the need to talk down any other point of view and especially any other iteration of your favorite button, class or spec however takes away, your credibility to be precise. You always have moments where i can almost believe you are not a frothing extremist raging at your keyboard while making good points about things you care about. And then you lapse back into some kind of gaming fascist.


    And besides all these meta discussion, i don't think Blizzard will ever simply go back to a state of subtlety of old times.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    And yet I play only PvE in classic currently. Interesting how so many people claim to know my perspective intimately yet get it so wrong.
    Oh, so you play Sub PvE in that thriving and challenging environment that's Classic raid scene.
    Cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    I do agree however that the mindset of "every spec needs to excel in every type of content" is killing the game. There are 36 different specs at this point. Allowing them to have different strengths and weaknesses is healthy. It's OK if some feel amazing in PvP while others feel amazing in M+.
    The tuning knobs have been made public since Cataclysm, there's the possibility of balancing a spec to work differently when engaged in PvP or PvE activities.
    You have no base to state what's killing the game, starting from the fact that it's a game you don't play.


    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    So if Subtlety was great in Legion due to its PvE popularity, was it not great in Dragon Soul and HFC tiers due to its PvE popularity + PvP popularity? This was achieved without any sort of radical reinvention or compromising of the core traditional gameplay of the spec for the audience which was already invested, in contrast with Legion which told the existing Subtlety Rogues to fuck off in order to make room for a new mostly PvE audience.
    Starting Cata, Sub has been played pretty prominently in PvE to the point of being the premiere spec in HFC.
    DS does not count. Cata was such a biased Rogue expansion it cannot be taken into consideration. Whoever invented Recuperate and Combat Conditioning or whatever the name should have been fired on the spot.
    Nobody should ever defend Cata Rogues, much like MoP s1 Warriors, MoP Hunters in general and S5 DKs.


    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    I write paragraphs explaining my position in detail, while those responding to me continue to dodge and avoid engaging. Jackstraw insists that Premed and MfD can't coexist, despite the fact that they already did, while Ymirsson mocks the fairly straightforward stance that "Shadow Dance is the most exciting offensive CD in the game" but has to be asked 3-4 times to provide an example of a more exciting CD and when he does so, can't provide any supporting reasoning except for "it's my personal subjective preference" without describing why in any detail.
    Premed and MfD can't coexhist in the current state of the class.
    I stated why, reiterating it was an example, underlying the problems with returning buttons to be, and providing a list of design thinking questions for you to corroborate the points we were discussing.
    And yet you fail to understand my albeit basic english and hold to your precious Premeditation because you probably can't be arsed to ask yourself where would you be paying for those added combo points in your kit budget.
    Not to mention the condescending tone you started using in my regards, but I'm starting to think these boards have you pretty famous for those very reasons, so.


    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Yet I am the one who is impossible to have a discussion with, somehow. As far as I can tell, I am the only person here discussing, while the rest of you just want to make personal attacks and talk about how mean, unreasonable, etc I am.
    But you surely look like you are, or you like to pass as one who is.

  15. #75
    I'm not playing Subtlety in classic, I raid as combat daggers, and where did I EVER say that classic is the epitome of skill?

    Is your entire mode of argument just to make things up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    You have no base to state what's killing the game, starting from the fact that it's a game you don't play.
    Ah yeah, because I played a Rogue for 15 years and now quit after BFA launch, I'm totally out of touch with design trends in the game. Brilliant!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Starting Cata, Sub has been played pretty prominently in PvE to the point of being the premiere spec in HFC.
    DS does not count. Cata was such a biased Rogue expansion it cannot be taken into consideration. Whoever invented Recuperate and Combat Conditioning or whatever the name should have been fired on the spot.
    So Rogue tankiness due to Recup and Combat Readiness invalidates Subtlety PvE success in Cata?? Prep Smokebomb invalidates Subtlety PvE success in Cata??

    According to Ymirsson, Legion is the only expansion where Subtlety ever got played in PvE. I point out other expansions and you want to throw a tantrum about completely unrelated points?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Premed and MfD can't coexhist in the current state of the class.
    Current state of the class should not exist so I am completely unmoved by this bad argument. We are talking about a new expansion, I am not talking about "let's bring Premed back and make zero other changes"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    And yet you fail to understand my albeit basic english and hold to your precious Premeditation because you probably can't be arsed to ask yourself where would you be paying for those added combo points in your kit budget.
    Your English isn't the problem. The fact that you think 2 extra combo points is going to completely dumpster finisher tuning is the problem. It's honestly one of the most mathematically illiterate arguments I've ever heard. It's as if you don't understand how numbers work on a fundamental level.

    Have you even considered the interaction between Shadow Techniques and SnD?? And you are worried about 2 extra CP from Premeditation when that's a drop in the ocean? What else can I say except learn how to do basic math.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-06-29 at 04:08 AM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  16. #76
    So you're arguing about a drop in the ocean? For a game you don't play? About a spec you cant stand anymore? You sure know how to pick your fights.

    And please refrain from interpreting my posts, i did not say Legion is the only expansion where sub got played in PvE, if you need a strawman, build one out of the stuffing in your head. And the audacity to tell other people to stop making things up.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Ah yeah, because I played a Rogue for 15 years and now quit after BFA launch, I'm totally out of touch with design trends in the game. Brilliant!ì
    Since the game gets continuously iterated, and you have no base of discussing design without singling out things you want to argue about, yes you are out of touch.

    The rest of the answer I won't even discuss. My own was overkill when I already stated it's pointless to continue discussing.
    Last edited by Jackstraw; 2020-06-29 at 12:04 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    So you're arguing about a drop in the ocean? For a game you don't play? About a spec you cant stand anymore? You sure know how to pick your fights.

    And please refrain from interpreting my posts, i did not say Legion is the only expansion where sub got played in PvE, if you need a strawman, build one out of the stuffing in your head. And the audacity to tell other people to stop making things up.
    A drop in the ocean in terms of finisher tuning and the overall quantity of CPs, but highly significant in terms of flexibility of PvP openers and generally all openers outside of long boss encounters

    That is the beauty of this ability, Premeditation. While it doesn't contribute many CPs in the grand scheme of things, it does contribute them at a time when they are most valuable, and that matters a lot for a spec that wants to have SnD and Sanguinary Veins (which should also return of course) active before bursting.

    This is even more important with the energy cost of Cheap Shot being increased and it rewarding only a single combo point now (although that is also an idiotic change by developers who clearly want to address the problem of Cheat Shot spam without addressing the root cause of Dance that is available far too often)
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  19. #79
    Things cant be unimportant and important at the same time. Balancing has to take into account both aspects or it is bad balancing.

    So make up your mind.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Since the game gets continuously iterated, and you have no base of discussing design without singling out things you want to argue about, yes you are out of touch.

    The rest of the answer I won't even discuss. My own was overkill when I already stated it's pointless to continue discussing.
    Translation: "I realize my terrible math has been debunked but I'm too proud to admit it"

    P.S. given that you previously recommended "MfD -> Slice and Dice" which in the situation being discussed is one of the dumbest possible sequences of buttons one could ever press, you probably shouldn't lecture anybody about keeping up with the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Things cant be unimportant and important at the same time. Balancing has to take into account both aspects or it is bad balancing.

    So make up your mind.
    Pay attention to the context. His argument is that tuning of Eviscerate will suffer due to too many combo points with Premeditation.

    My rebuttal is that Premeditation doesn't have a large impact on Eviscerate tuning in the macro scheme, because it doesn't provide a great deal of combo points overall, but is important because of the rotational flexibility it provides in the initial opener from Stealth when there is a need to quickly apply several buffs/debuffs via finishers.

    Stop looking for dumb gotchas and try reading for understanding.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-06-29 at 01:31 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

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