Thread: Off the GCD?

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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Since the game gets continuously iterated, and you have no base of discussing design without singling out things you want to argue about, yes you are out of touch.

    The rest of the answer I won't even discuss. My own was overkill when I already stated it's pointless to continue discussing.
    Translation: "I realize my terrible math has been debunked but I'm too proud to admit it"

    P.S. given that you previously recommended "MfD -> Slice and Dice" which in the situation being discussed is one of the dumbest possible sequences of buttons one could ever press, you probably shouldn't lecture anybody about keeping up with the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Things cant be unimportant and important at the same time. Balancing has to take into account both aspects or it is bad balancing.

    So make up your mind.
    Pay attention to the context. His argument is that tuning of Eviscerate will suffer due to too many combo points with Premeditation.

    My rebuttal is that Premeditation doesn't have a large impact on Eviscerate tuning in the macro scheme, because it doesn't provide a great deal of combo points overall, but is important because of the rotational flexibility it provides in the initial opener from Stealth when there is a need to quickly apply several buffs/debuffs via finishers.

    Stop looking for dumb gotchas and try reading for understanding.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-06-29 at 01:31 PM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Stop looking for dumb gotchas and try reading for understanding.
    But that's so easy with you. Riling up extremists always was a hobby of mine.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Translation: "I realize my terrible math has been debunked but I'm too proud to admit it"
    Yeah right.
    Do I have to translate everything you (at this point purposely) misinterpreted from the very start of our conversation?

    Let's do it like this: can you stop breathing with your mouth and follow the four question steps I posted earlier so that you can at least demonstrate you're not some random internet troll and actually someone whose intelligence is at least on par with the display?

    If not, you're what you demonstrate. A well articulated random.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Yeah right.
    Do I have to translate everything you (at this point purposely) misinterpreted from the very start of our conversation?

    Let's do it like this: can you stop breathing with your mouth and follow the four question steps I posted earlier so that you can at least demonstrate you're not some random internet troll and actually someone whose intelligence is at least on par with the display?

    If not, you're what you demonstrate. A well articulated random.
    I already answered your questions. To reiterate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Do you feel acceptable that you have only two possible openers as Assassination? As any given spec really.
    No, I think this is terrible, one dimensional garbage and that's the exact reason that I don't play BFA. There was so much variety in openers in the past that has been utterly deleted in the prune. This is a big reason why I argue for unpruning Premeditation and Garrote, to allow for more variation in Subtlety openers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    How do you feel about combos on the character?
    As previously stated, I think there are both advantages and disadvantages to it. I would happily go back to combo points on the character if it meant getting the older Rogue spellbook back, but according to Blizzard combo points on the character was NOT the reason for the pruning. They have stated several times, on forums and on Twitter, that the goal of the Legion redesign and prune was to make the spec "appealing to a wider audience" and "more differentiated from other Rogue specs". In MoP, they introduced paid character boosts and this also coincided with the development time of the WoD prune, where they stated the goal was to reduce the number of keybinds in order to make the game easier for new players (who might be boosting a character class that they have no idea how to play because they didn't level with it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Do you think that easy access to resources, damage or high potential playmaking scenarios damages the skill floor and ultimately the usability of not only the Rogue but all the classes?
    While I am a competitive player by nature and have earned Gladiator titles, high arena rating in every expansion prior to quitting shortly after BFA launch, 99th percentile parses, etc I am not obsessed with the "skill floor" to the extent that many others in the arena community are, nor am I obsessed with it (in the opposite direction) as Blizzard's developers are. Keeping the "skill floor" low so that people can be terrible is not valuable for its own sake, but neither is sacrificing Rogue uniqueness and identity in order to raise the skill floor (as was done in the pruning and Legion redesign) acceptable to me when there are 36 specs in the game including plenty which are very easy already for a new player.

    In other words, I am fine with Subtlety as a spec with a low skill floor and I am not willing to sacrifice core ideas of Subtlety gameplay at the altar of accessibility, but I'm also not concerned with arbitrarily maintaining a low skill floor just to make the spec "exclusive". I take a fairly holistic view of the game as an RPG, and I care most of all about the connection I feel (or lack thereof) to my RPG character that I've played since 2005 and into which I've invested hundreds of days of my time /played. While I don't think there is value in maintaining a low skill floor just for the sake of making the spec exclusive I am not willing to sacrifice the unique features and playstyle of the spec just to make it "accessible" either when there are 35 other specs someone can pick from if they want something more accessible.

    Regarding Premeditation specifically, I think "does access to 2 additional combo points in the opener ruin the skill floor of the spec" is not a particularly worthwhile question to ask. That's not the standard by which I judge this ability. And as previously stated many times, in the "macro" view 2 additional combo points in an opener is not the root cause of skyrocketing access to resources.

    For what it's worth, I agree with you that a complete tear-down and rebuild is necessary for the Rogue class [I've argued that position on this forum for years], by the way, so I am NOT arguing in favor of "just bring back Premeditation and everything is fine". Premeditation has never been my #1 priority, it's just an ability that I miss using and I would like to see its return included as one small piece of a badly needed complete rebuild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    What's your stance on the current state of filler abilities, autoattacks for melee classes and a meta that's skewed in favor of the class that can stack the stronger stat of the patch?
    I think there is far, far too much emphasis in the modern game on "winning by pumping bigger numbers" rather than winning with superior strategy, tactics, situational awareness, and team execution. One of the largest issues that I take with the prune is that with so many tools removed, the use of utility has become quite one dimensional and scripted, while simply "doing more damage" is more important than ever before.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-06-29 at 05:44 PM.

  5. #85
    Was just about to answer, and I will. I'm just taken aback from reality hitting me through the screen.

    I did not forget. I feel we need to do good on this thread turned feedback collection just so that the game we love can go back to the status we know it can reach, so that maybe it can help someone not losing themselves farther than Azeroth.

    I know Azeroth helped me.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Was just about to answer, and I will. I'm just taken aback from reality hitting me through the screen.

    I did not forget. I feel we need to do good on this thread turned feedback collection just so that the game we love can go back to the status we know it can reach, so that maybe it can help someone not losing themselves farther than Azeroth.

    I know Azeroth helped me.
    Please, take all the time you need fellow Rogue. /salute

  7. #87
    Alright, at this point let's turn a new page.

    Many of us don't see the reason this game got to the admittedly disappointing state it's currently in. Rogues, like many, got hit by a much unneeded prune while a sweeping number of changes happened.

    My goal now is to posit them as a base of discussion. We can then go back to discuss which brand of combo points we prefer best, and maybe agree on the fact that having MfD with the sick Premed icon would be the absolute best.
    The MfD icon sucks ass.

    So what happened? Well, a number of things, mostly over time.
    • There has been a major flattening of things that made specs different.
      I'll take melee hybrids as an example: Druids had great control, damage and mobility, but a very situational interrupt. Rets had good control, amazing utility AND a defensive omni dispel, but had no interrupt. Enhas had the greatest interrupt and great utility with a defining offensive dispel, but a very situational control.

      Come Cataclysm, they all got a kick.

      This immediately creates an issue, although not at the times as far as performance goes. Everybody getting a kick means casting is more difficult, and it already was due to the nature of some outliers (DKs in general, Mind Numbing, Curse of Tongues. Spell Reflection + Pummel debatably). Adding that kicks got removed from the GCD in Wrath meant that something had to happen.

      Melee kicks got a comprehensive 5 seconds cd nerf come MoP, but to make casters stronger most meaningful spells began getting their cast times to be instant.
      So this was a nerf that only led to consequent frustration in a (semi healthy) metagame where everything was so overboard that the great WoD prune then had to come.

      This is to underline how an apparently reasonable change to balance every melee spec led to sizable damage to the overarching metagame. This is an important lesson, one that (in my personal opinion) was learned but completely forgot given the current state of corruptions.
      And just trust me @shoegazing, you don't want to even suppose what a rabbit hole corruptions are right now.

      How does this gets tackled? By emphasizing the identity of single specs.
      This takes time. But Warriors do not need a ranged unavoidable stun more than Charge stun, which was an amazing way to fork ability usage.
      And Frost Mages do not need Dragon's Breath. But bloody Deep Freeze?
      These are two quick examples, the list could go on. But I think that when there's a call for class/ spec identity, one should be able to call for things that have no place in a kit.

      Arcane Power was the first damage% increase cooldown, with Power Infusion close second. Now everyone has a damage% amp.
      I think the game was better when different classes had different cooldowns akin to their identity.
    • Gameplay loop started revolving on "exciting finishers".
      I played this game long enough to know that a melee's DpS breakdown was mostly comprised of white hits. And I played this game long enough to know that if I get in a Frost Nova by a frost mage and a Frostbolt is being casted, I should fear that simple cast because a Shatter Combo is coming.

      This moment to moment gameplay comprised of mundane autoattacks and simple spells has no more place in the current game.

      Autoattacks might as well not matter, the game itself makes them way smaller than yellow specials. All that matters now is premiere buttons such as buffed Mortal Strikes, Finishers, Fists of Fury, Templar Verdicts, Chaos Bolts.
      The classes build 3-5 kanoodles and dump them into this kame hame ha. Which most of the times does nothing because on top of that you have to pop your offensive cd too.

      How does this gets tackled? By giving more power budget to mundane parts of a kit.
      Make autoattacks meaningful. Make filler casts do damage. Give a cooldown to important attacks (hello Chaos Bolt!) so that they can be meaningful when casted.
      Drakedog and Noone fragged people with Incinerates and Frostbolts. Granted TBC was different, but there's a lesson to be learned in older iterations of the game.
    • Lastly, and this is a general statement, allow classes and specs to have strengths and weaknesses to be exploited in both group play and single play.
      In a life long past when Warrior was all I played, I dueled a lot with a friend whose Rogue was all he played. Muti Eviscerate well under the Envenom reign back in Wrath.
      We had great fun because we knew what we were facing and what we were playing. And at the time, we were at our absolute peak.

      Knowing he would deadzone kite me and instantly disarm my Bladestorm would lead me to use Bladestorm to break the kite. This would in turn start to make him think to use his disarm more deliberately to prevent me from using defensives, but then would allow me to use Bladestorm for damage, forcing Feint and maybe Evasion.

      Having flaws and working with an expanded multi dimensional kit leads to satisfying results for the final user. Users who gets better at the game make the seldom video. The seldom video promotes the game. The promoted game gets increased users.

    These, to me, are the focal point for the class design to be taken into consideration. The overall gameplay loop of the game I feel is of no interest when pertaining to class rebalance, aside from one important point:
    Classes need to be in a playable state without external power plugs. A class can and should have an increase in power due to the nature of gear scaling, but there should NOT be gear pieces enabling a class to function at an even playing field.
    This trend started in WoD with Archimonde trinkets, was disgusting then and is disgusting now.

    I think it's all.
    This does not cover single buttons or past iterations of a spec, but wants to be a more comprehensive view on the state of the game, how it did good and sometimes still does, and how can it be better from a strict design standpoint, with the occasional example to ground what it's being stated.

  8. #88
    The only thing that needs to change about rogues is that combo generators and combo spenders shouldn't be on the same GCD either that or remove e cost from spenders

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