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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    I am one of the toxic ones, why?

    When people come into 20+ keys and dont interupt, they dont belong there. they are hurting the party and wasting everyones time being in that place. not to mention someones key.

    Same goes for defensives, doing low damage. when you underperform in m+ you are not only wasting your own time, your wasting everyone elses too. im talking higher level, lower level sure i have a ton more tolerence because thats where ppl should be when learning, not in 20s padding meters like MONKEYS, wow your td did 30million damage you should be in method!

    Or is it just that everyone thinks they are actually good? but really they have no clue just how bad they are and just how carried they have been up to 4k rio?

    You legit can be carried up to 4k rio, i was doing 22s the last easy week no sweat whatsoever, so so easy, thats 3900 rio! pugging!

    When you fully understand how the game works and what needs to be done in depth its incredibly irritating to see people not playing there class to its capabilities, they are literally just clicking dps dps dps dps oh crap im dieing il use darkness, no thought other than ooo aaa ooo aaa dps ooo aa ooo aa dps, no pre plan. no using healpots so the heal can stay in catform longer. its ok il take 79 corruption the healer can heal the thing when it procs....then you die...." this heal sucks"
    All of that makes sense, but where you note you are way more tolerant sub 20's, there are always lots of people with the exact same mindset you describe here at whatever other level they choose to apply it to. Doing 10's? Let's be a dickhead over any mistake (or perceived mistake).

    If all of the toxicity was contained only to the highest levels of play, this post likely wouldn't even exist. Unfortunately, it's often rampant across the entire game at all levels, and has been for years.
    The pen is mightier than the sword, especially if properly sharpened and in the hands of a well trained ninja.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Sometus View Post
    So what I am talking about is the current gearing system as well as the mindset of the people going into mythic+ and the experience of new players reaching the endgame. Without talking too long about it, pugging, from levelling to endgame, is currently an incredibly hostile, tense and unwelcoming place that can make wow so much worse of an experience than it has to be. It's no place for learning or to experience the content. Instead it is dominated by the GOGOGOGO attitude and hypercompetitive mindset that is encouraged by the community, no matter if it is normal, heroic, mythic 0, mythic+ (through which this mindset came to be).

    So the big question is: Why not just join a guild? Now, here is where the problem goes a bit deeper. I tried joining guilds at many points in the past two expansions since the one I was raiding with before quit mid WoD. However, to join a guild now, you need to provide them with some sort of immediate use, mainly in terms of having high ilvl to begin with to justify them taking you in. And after that, unless you make a significant effort, you won't be in a clique in said guild that you can run dungeons with to gear up. So for the first time you will be alone and if you should get the short end of the stick and not be able to keep up with the gear the rest of your guild has you might be in trouble. Worst case you will fail your trial. I'd still try speaking with a officer in the guild or some other well connected person about it but sadly in a lot of guilds this attitude seems normal now.

    In a way WoW really has become a place of survival and people being left behind if they don't commit themselves to the treadmill early enough in a patch, especially with essences and corruptions now. People who didn't grind in 8.2 now have major drawbacks since they are missing some essences or chances to get higher ranks.

    To get higher gear you need to either pug or join a guild, but both of those possibilities require you to have high ilvl to begin with. For guilds its the reason that they want some immediate use out of you and not gear up a stranger if they don't know if you will stick with them. And for m+ since there is such a mass of people you need to overgear it to be accepted. And then the problem becomes that even if people have high ilvl, it doesn't mean they will play their class well. It's just a safety measure of "if he has higher ilvl it means he can put out more damage before he dies, so that we maybe get it done" (especially in +10s and higher where you have a harder time overgearing things because mechanics become punishing).

    This is just my two cents but I really think there needs to be something done to incentivize to socialize or just have basic human empathy with others and encourage them to learn rather than the "just get ilvl somehow I don't care if you can play your class well" mentality. It is especially hostile to new players, which two friends who tried to get into wow endgame can attest to. Since the introduction of m+ in legion and the new quick way to access competitive pugable content this has really broken through and bfa has exaggerated it. Combine that with the overabundance of treadmills and the lack of emphasis of skill and you have a horrible experience for people who have not been in a strong tightly knit guild since before legion.

    Thanks for reading!
    that is what happens when you cater you game to top 5% instead to 95% of playerbase

    most of people "peaced out" and swapped to classic since its much easier to play

    SL will be only worse since blizzard is doing nothing because they dont even see it as a problem

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by adam6961 View Post
    I found that doing "end game" content is often times very unfriendly, can feel difficult to break into and once in a while downright toxic.

    The nicest people are the ones you meet camping things like Soundless in my experience.
    Once in a while you get some jerk trying blow it up or a Hunter trying to tame it out from under a group, but usually you get people forming groups and waiting 5-10 minutes for people to arrive, slowing DPS for stragglers and just being really considerate overall with no real benefit to themselves.

    I think most of the kind and patient people have moved away from end game and progression because the rotten apples spoiled the bunch for them.
    yup - a lot of people i have on my real id list is doing exackly that - they chill , farm old expansions transmogs , mounts , pets etc - they completly ignore endgame past emmisaries.

    same will be in SL.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    that is what happens when you cater you game to top 5% instead to 95% of playerbase

    most of people "peaced out" and swapped to classic since its much easier to play

    SL will be only worse since blizzard is doing nothing because they dont even see it as a problem

    - - - Updated - - -



    yup - a lot of people i have on my real id list is doing exackly that - they chill , farm old expansions transmogs , mounts , pets etc - they completly ignore endgame past emmisaries.

    same will be in SL.
    Quite sure that FAR more people doing "endgame" content right now than they ever did before in any other expansion.

    How many people saw MC on vanilla? Compared to the playerbase - nearly no one.

    "Game is difficult therefore people are toxic" This is so wrong. Can't be more wrong. Ever done lfr? It's extremly easy and people are still toxic. Same went for classic dungeons. We had these "are people too toxic nowadays?" discussion for over a decade. People were always toxic and always will be.

    Heck, I still remember being laughed at and kicked out of a hc dungeon in bc because I didn't resheep. Nothing new or a recent thing.

  4. #44
    Now this is one of the posts i roll my eyes when i see it.

    I have to say that i partly agree with one thing that you said and thats wow is not as social as it used to.
    Everything else you wrote i completely disagree.

    For starters WoW when i started playing (late BC / early Wotlk) was a lot more social then it is now, the reason for that is that you actually needed to interact with ppl to get anything done(there was no raid finder, no dungeon finder, you were playing on your realm only not cross-realm bull$#&% we have now). Other people knew who you were, they knew what to expect from you just by looking in which guild you were. When people did PUG's raids/dungeons they had to interact with other people just to get invited to the group, and same goes for main raids (you couldnt just queve up and hope to be invited.) Things were different back then.

    But saying WoW is anti-social is just wrong. Sometimes when i raid/do mythics i want to just mash buttons and not interact with anyone, but sometimes i feel chatty and you would be suprised by the ammount of times ive had conversation with players long after the raid has ended. I even have some people added on my battletag which i still play with from time to time.

    Now for joining guilds, this is where i completely disagree with you. I was playing wow from Wotlk to legion, then i started playing some other games(LoL). Now when patch 8.3 came i got back to WoW, i started on new realm (Kazzak-EU), created new character and within 2 weeks of getting to level 120 i was fully geared with most of the essences (some did take a bit longer to get but no essence takes longer than few weeks to get, even nazjatar one), the first social guild that randomly invited a noob level 120 DH is magically very social (a lot of guildies are doing Mythic + together, every week theres at least 2 HC Nyalotha raids with almost everyone welcome to join, no trial, no bullying, no GOGOGO attitude). Getting gear is very easy at this moment since ilvl practically has no value therefore you can get most of the gear from mythic+/hc nyalotha if you are least a little competent.

    But the way you are writting this, i got a feeling that even doing +10 might be hard for you, which i get it not all people are equally skilled at playing the game. Thats why i would recommend you that instead of making posts like this and crying about things you cannot change in the game (which i agree with you that it became more toxic) maybe you should spend time improving yourself. Watch some guides on yt about things that are giving you hard time, how to properly do certain mythic dungeon, boss tactics, etc.
    Because look you are playing this game with 4 or more ppl (depending on content that you are doing) and if you really think that in a timed dungeon people have time to go over every thing they do, to practically coach you then you are wrong. They did their own research, and you should do yours. If you play well there is no way ppl will flame you or be toxic towards you. And even if they are for some reason, grow a thick skin and move on, im really amazed how people these days feel like a special sunflower and be offended by pixels.
    Last edited by Ishvalan; 2020-05-28 at 11:03 AM.

  5. #45
    Most anti-social game? Ridiculous.

    Most anti-social MMORPG? Possible, though it's got heavy competition from games like Black Desert Online, where essentially no content at all requires you to interact with other players directly.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Tell me another MMORPG where you can repeat ALL the quests you already completed with an underleveld person and be scaled to its level.

    Lets test your brain...are you an expert when it comes to MMORPGs?
    FFXIV have both level sync and newgame + where you can repeat the main quest by chapter. And also give you reward for doing level-synced dungeon with lowbies.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Sometus View Post
    So what I am talking about is the current gearing system as well as the mindset of the people going into mythic+ and the experience of new players reaching the endgame. Without talking too long about it, pugging, from levelling to endgame, is currently an incredibly hostile, tense and unwelcoming place that can make wow so much worse of an experience than it has to be. It's no place for learning or to experience the content. Instead it is dominated by the GOGOGOGO attitude and hypercompetitive mindset that is encouraged by the community, no matter if it is normal, heroic, mythic 0, mythic+ (through which this mindset came to be).

    So the big question is: Why not just join a guild? Now, here is where the problem goes a bit deeper. I tried joining guilds at many points in the past two expansions since the one I was raiding with before quit mid WoD. However, to join a guild now, you need to provide them with some sort of immediate use, mainly in terms of having high ilvl to begin with to justify them taking you in. And after that, unless you make a significant effort, you won't be in a clique in said guild that you can run dungeons with to gear up. So for the first time you will be alone and if you should get the short end of the stick and not be able to keep up with the gear the rest of your guild has you might be in trouble. Worst case you will fail your trial. I'd still try speaking with a officer in the guild or some other well connected person about it but sadly in a lot of guilds this attitude seems normal now.

    In a way WoW really has become a place of survival and people being left behind if they don't commit themselves to the treadmill early enough in a patch, especially with essences and corruptions now. People who didn't grind in 8.2 now have major drawbacks since they are missing some essences or chances to get higher ranks.

    To get higher gear you need to either pug or join a guild, but both of those possibilities require you to have high ilvl to begin with. For guilds its the reason that they want some immediate use out of you and not gear up a stranger if they don't know if you will stick with them. And for m+ since there is such a mass of people you need to overgear it to be accepted. And then the problem becomes that even if people have high ilvl, it doesn't mean they will play their class well. It's just a safety measure of "if he has higher ilvl it means he can put out more damage before he dies, so that we maybe get it done" (especially in +10s and higher where you have a harder time overgearing things because mechanics become punishing).

    This is just my two cents but I really think there needs to be something done to incentivize to socialize or just have basic human empathy with others and encourage them to learn rather than the "just get ilvl somehow I don't care if you can play your class well" mentality. It is especially hostile to new players, which two friends who tried to get into wow endgame can attest to. Since the introduction of m+ in legion and the new quick way to access competitive pugable content this has really broken through and bfa has exaggerated it. Combine that with the overabundance of treadmills and the lack of emphasis of skill and you have a horrible experience for people who have not been in a strong tightly knit guild since before legion.

    Thanks for reading!
    i didnt know m+ is to blame for the classic GOGOGOGOGOGOGOG atitude!! my gosh!! that dastardly m+...corrupting even the purity of classic....say it eint soooo


    so yeah,saying wow feels like one of the most antisocial games is pure parody,you cant accomplish much by being anti social,lvling and content you can que for is about it,rated pvp,m+,raids,all require you to not be anti social

  8. #48
    Pit Lord Advent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segus1992 View Post
    Most anti-social game? Ridiculous.

    Most anti-social MMORPG? Possible, though it's got heavy competition from games like Black Desert Online, where essentially no content at all requires you to interact with other players directly.
    Eh, I think I'd probably file that under asocial instead. The way the OP describes the game is probably quite correct in that it's very hostile and unwelcoming. A long time ago the players were far more tolerant of screw ups and would take time to teach you whenever they could. I haven't seen anyone do that as a general rule for a stranger since maybe 2009/2010. The game boils down to how much someone can do for you instead of what you can do for someone else. If you don't come into the content an expert already no one wants to have anything to do with you, and this occurs at all levels of play, not just the top. The hostility and negativity is the perfect characteristic of the game being anti social.

  9. #49
    There are plenty of leveling/social guilds which dont require ilvl - just being social. They are not doing tryhard content or sth but people don't ask you to be 460 to do a +2 or even m0. You somehow are attached to the idea that it's ilvl or whatever else is mandatory to join a guild - it's not. As for pugging dungeons - there is a tool where you can make your own grps. You can add notes to it so people will know that they would be joining social chill run.
    I mean... being social surrounds you by social people.
    Expecting that someone just will take you in without putting any effort into it and using some low grade excuses like ilvl to not get into society is the problem for these "social" people. They are not that social to begin with unless someone babysits them into it. It's like having an introvert friend - they might enjoy some casual fun interaction but they won't get their asses up until you drag them out.
    Welcome to the adult world - no one will know you exist until you approach someone.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I mean... being social surrounds you by social people.
    Expecting that someone just will take you in without putting any effort into it and using some low grade excuses like ilvl to not get into society is the problem for these "social" people. They are not that social to begin with unless someone babysits them into it. It's like having an introvert friend - they might enjoy some casual fun interaction but they won't get their asses up until you drag them out.
    Welcome to the adult world - no one will know you exist until you approach someone.
    I think this is exactly the problem for people that are saying WoW became anti-social.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Eh, I think I'd probably file that under asocial instead. The way the OP describes the game is probably quite correct in that it's very hostile and unwelcoming. A long time ago the players were far more tolerant of screw ups and would take time to teach you whenever they could. I haven't seen anyone do that as a general rule for a stranger since maybe 2009/2010. The game boils down to how much someone can do for you instead of what you can do for someone else. If you don't come into the content an expert already no one wants to have anything to do with you, and this occurs at all levels of play, not just the top. The hostility and negativity is the perfect characteristic of the game being anti social.
    Fair enough, though I'd argue it's pretty exaggerated in that case, as I haven't experienced that much of a difference since the early days of the game - although I definitely agree there's a difference, there's still plenty of helpful and friendly people around, it's just that it's so very easy to find people you don't have to help that many would rather not put in the necessary effort.

    So while I agree the game has gotten more and more anti-social over time, I'd argue that's because of how convenient all the endgame content is to find groups for. If LFD, LFG, and LFR were removed the game would become more social out of necessity again - though many would also quit in the process.

    Alternatively, if endgame more incentivized running content with the same people (in the olden times, this happened naturally because you found people who were reliable players, but these days there's just too many people in the pool with crossrealm), you'd have a reason to add people to friends list and similar again, which would mean people are more likely to cultivate friendships and generally be helpful.

    In short, I see your point and I agree, but I don't agree it's as much of a lost case and the issues could be fairly easily fixed.

  12. #52
    @Sometus
    I just started again after quitting within the first few weeks of bfa (mostly 370ilvl chars + 1 freshly 120 bellow 200ilvl). I have no issues like you describe.
    You can literally do pug raid runs for the current content for at least normal or hc and m+ depending on your gear. If you gear sux, farm content suited for your gear. There are tons of old content raid groups everywhere or just farm m+, world quests or pvp. In the worst case go lfr and ask ppl with good drops if they need it. They often trade it to you if they dont need it.
    Finding guilds? There are thousands of more or less casual. You can find a proper raiding/m+/high rated pvp guilds if you have the experience and gear to fit the standards, which you obviously dont. Well, you can simply join a random casual leveling or social guild, which I often use for leveling new chars. I dont participate, but every such guild had some active ppl running low content together.
    You complain that ppl dont enjoy slow socializing groups instead of get sh*t done groups. Well, its obvious. Ppl have other hobbies or obligations in RL (I dare to say that most wow players are either dads or guys in their 30s) and WoW has become insane grind machine lately if you want to stay on par with others. Who has time for trashtalk, when you have to spend hours with daily quests, weekly quests, world quests and you want to have some actual fun on top of that like m+,raids, arenas, bgs etc. If I want to talk to ppl, I use discord while playing the game to stay efficient with my time spend in the game. Actually I have a group of ppl, who are on discord all the time.

    Maybe find some friends with similar mentality as you have. Im sure there are tons of such ppl or guilds. Just dont be lazy-ass mofo with excuses. I randomly encounter such ppl or guilds all the time. You cant expect ppl who are "better" at the game with better gear to boost you through the content, have fun spending hours explaining you everything (you can learn from youtube or whatever) and be greatful for it, right? If you dont have the gear or achievements to prove you are worthy something, why would ppl take you into their groups full of ppl, who did their chores? I get your frustration, but you also need to understand it from the opposite point of view.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Tell me another MMORPG where you can repeat ALL the quests you already completed with an underleveld person and be scaled to its level.

    Lets test your brain...are you an expert when it comes to MMORPGs?
    City of Heroes.
    I'm a thread killer.

  14. #54
    To be fair, this isn't exactly WoW's fault. Modern players tend to queue for content with the aim of completing it as fast as possible, a mindset which has bled into plenty of games beyond MMO's.

    With that said, WoW isn't doing itself any favors by demanding players grind 3-4 different end-game stats (azerite+azerite traits, legendaries, corruption, ect) to stay competitive. With such overwhelming daily maintenance required its no wonder players rush content and have little patience for mistakes.

  15. #55
    what you describe though has little to do with how 'social' the game is, you're talking about accessibility

    all those things could still happen in a much more 'chatty' and 'social' environment

  16. #56
    Who needs guilds when discord exists? Plenty of great communities for people of varying dedication to the game who are willing to bring along new or less experience people to all sorts of content.
    Quote Originally Posted by AZSolii View Post
    "yes, let's piss him off because he loves his long hair. Let us twirl our evil mustaches amidst the background music of honky-tonk pianos! GENIUS!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Culexus View Post
    Yes i hate those sneaky account thieves that come to my house and steal my computer in order to steal some wow money! Those bastards! *shakes fist*

  17. #57
    Completely disagree. WoW being social is the major reason I am playing.

    My guild first and foremost.
    Nice friends.
    Able to go on LFG and group for almost any content I feel like, even if guild and friends aren't doing that, because there's a ton of other people doing stuff.
    Random banter in trade, groups or social platforms surrounding WoW such as Reddit, Twitter, Discord, this forum, WoW forum.

    And also, not every random player you group for an M+ or world boss needs to become your friend and admirer. Especially not if you are a bad player. The people who systematically complain of the social aspect of WoW are either:

    - Socially challenged and thus experience difficulties interacting with others or straight out are unable to create or maintain online relations, and/or have unrealistic expectations.

    - Have insatiable need for attention they feel they are due.

    - Have really low level of skill and desire to improve, which puts off anyone else due to WoW being a GAME and the way you play it is the first and main thing that makes you stand out from a pool of names in a positive way. (As well as attitude, both go together).

    The "social experience" takes effort on several fronts and then must grow naturally. It's not the game, it's you.
    Last edited by Trumpcat; 2020-05-28 at 02:29 PM.

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