Raider.io is almost perfect

[Malix Farwin]

Everything can be bought. Even mythic raid progresion at week one.

But besides of a several buyers (like 0,001%) that can buy a sh*tload of runs to make both their rio raitng AND quantity of timed dungeons, there are a plenty of players that can't even dps properly not mentioned about interrupts and tactics. So raider io rating was created as the initial filter for forming pug teams of players who can do certain key level dungeons and it serves its right. Even if some people (I pugged a lot of keays and saw maybe 1 or 2% of it) use it wrong doesnt mean its a bad tool.

Buying raids and buy IO score are a lot different. Buying a raid clear wont suddenly get you into mythic guilds where as buying score will. Not to mention its a lot of accessible and cheaper. Second, thats not the only problem with Raider.io. The way it tracks scores is problematic and unreliable. sometimes you are doing extra work because it didnt properly track your score. The higher up you are the less this becomes a problem but it is the definition of a system that very hard to start late in and thats a core problem.

[iinverse]

No. My system punishes the leavers, and gives you incentive to complete.

If you time it, say you got 10 points. If you can't time it, you get 5 points. If you leave, you get -5 points.

Ok, we're a tema and trying to push some our keys.
We have say three 19 AD keys and want to try some tactics about pulling, so we will start key, try tactic and if its not good, we leave and start again.
Do we all have -5 points according to your system?

Remember that all keys above 15 are more a time completion, not about finishing run whatever it takes. If it fails timer, some groupd will decide to disband and try other key. You want to punish those groups?

- - - Updated - - -

Buying raids and buy IO score are a lot different. Buying a raid clear wont suddenly get you into mythic guilds where as buying score will.

No any difference. Buyers can be easily detected here, and to get a good score you need to buy a sh*tload of runs (like even buying all 15 in time still not get you 2k rio, also it gives you pretty bad statistics where you will have only one run per each dungeon, without any failed attempts\tries -> definitely a buyer).

Second, thats not the only problem with Raider.io. The way it tracks scores is problematic and unreliable. sometimes you are doing extra work because it didnt properly track your score.

Actually, its pretty simple and reliable. Each run has its point equivalent based on key level and time of completion. Higher key\less time = more raitng per dungeon.
And you do not need to do anything, raider.io will track your progress basing on blizzard API of mythic leaderboard for each realm.

The higher up you are the less this becomes a problem but it is the definition of a system that very hard to start late in and thats a core problem.

Wrong, it actually easier to start later because on early start you need some rio even for low keys. And now you can just run all 10 in time and get 1,2k rio even without having rio at all, because there are more experienced parties with good dps\bis corruptions\etc.
I described a method of getting score for a newbie (earlier in that thread), and, according to replies, it works perfectly and pretty easy.

[crakerjack]

My issue with raider io is that it doesn't show enough individual skill. It doesn't show how often someone uses their interrupts/CC or how well they perform specific affixes. You are graded on how well your groups do, not how you do as a solo player. I would say it's far from perfect, but it's really all we have. A system that could record how well you perform individually would be perfect in my eyes. How well do you work with others in your group etc.

[iinverse]

My issue with raider io is that it doesn't show enough individual skill. It doesn't show how often someone uses their interrupts/CC or how well they perform specific affixes. You are graded on how well your groups do, not how you do as a solo player. I would say it's far from perfect, but it's really all we have. A system that could record how well you perform individually would be perfect in my eyes. How well do you work with others in your group etc.

I'm afraid its nearly impossible to create sucn rating because blizz will not share each combat log to parse through API, so it completely relies to players to share their logs (and not everyone does it), and, you know, that's a lot of place for abusing here (simply by uploading only perfect logs for scoring).
Also it will be very hard to rate for example to track proper interrupts\cc, because some casts needs to be ignored, and some - interrupted at all costs. Also it heavily depends on party setup (some parties can ignore damage using partywide CDs and just burn mobs). I doubt that even e-sport games have such rating.

[Kuntantee]

Ok, we're a tema and trying to push some our keys.
We have say three 19 AD keys and want to try some tactics about pulling, so we will start key, try tactic and if its not good, we leave and start again.
Do we all have -5 points according to your system?

Yes, but this is because WoW's M+s are not designed to accommodate a rating system. Ideally, you'd want a trial mode for the key but that's beyond of the scope of an external rating system. If I could magically introduce a trial mode too, I'd also pair that with my propose rating system.

[araine]

Not really. It's not exactly the same, not even close. My system will work, only if you punish the leavers. Otherwise, people will leave if they "think" the run is not going to be timed.

- - - Updated - - -



No. My system punishes the leavers, and gives you incentive to complete.

If you time it, say you got 10 points. If you can't time it, you get 5 points. If you leave, you get -5 points.

And all that will create is folks being afk watching netflix and jumping once every 30sec to keep themself from getting disconnected. the root of the problem is as always the ranking site / system

[iinverse]

Yes, but this is because WoW's M+s are not designed to accommodate a rating system. Ideally, you'd want a trial mode for the key but that's beyond of the scope of an external rating system. If I could magically introduce a trial mode too, I'd also pair that with my propose rating system.

So your system kills any kind of tries for high keys, especially for no meta teams. Not good.

The more I read about all kinds of... "improvements", the more I see that raider.io team made all just right.

[Kuntantee]

So your system kills any kind of tries for high keys, especially for no meta teams. Not good.

The more I read about all kinds of... "improvements", the more I see that raider.io team made all just right.

If you have a mid-to-high score, you already didn't "quit your way" out to that score, you're likely to be better player than a player with mid-to-high score in the current system. Outliers are likely to be the same in both system, e.g., people with really low or really high score. This implies losing bunch of points while trying to develop a strategy is not that significant of a loss.

Regardless, it is hard to convince someone who thinks the current system is perfect, when it is far from it. I have already addressed entirety of your questions and concerns. The proposed solution is not perfect either, but that's due to WoW's limitations and this being an external ranking system. It's still infinitely better than current RIO system who promotes extreme levels of selfishness and toxicity.

- - - Updated - - -

And all that will create is folks being afk watching netflix and jumping once every 30sec to keep themself from getting disconnected. the root of the problem is as always the ranking site / system

Addendum: a kick is -5 points too but I am mostly positive that this is not technically traceable.

[iinverse]

If you have a mid-to-high score, you already didn't "quit your way" out to that score, you're likely to be better player than a player with mid-to-high score in the current system. Outliers are likely to be the same in both system, e.g., people with really low or really high score. This implies losing bunch of points while trying to develop a strategy is not that significant of a loss.

Regardless, it is hard to convince someone who thinks the current system is perfect, when it is far from it. I have already addressed entirety of your questions and concerns. The proposed solution is not perfect either, but that's due to WoW's limitations and this being an external ranking system. It's still infinitely better than current RIO system who promotes extreme levels of selfishness and toxicity.

Your improvements still favor using meta and adds more toxic to it (like punishing other parties except for meta to try more for smoother runs, also forcing to complete every key even if its not needed).
It could work in more balanced game, but not here.

[Kuntantee]

[...] adds more toxic to it (like punishing other parties except for meta to try more for smoother runs, also forcing to complete every key even if its not needed).

That's not what "toxicity" is. That's basically a constraint imposed by the system on the way you play. It has nothing to do with sour interactions between players enabled by the system.

[scelero]

looks, another thread calling for punishing people who don't agree with how a dungeon run is going.

It's sad the amount of people who want to force what they consider a 'rage quiter' to stay on play with them. Makes no sense.

PUGs come with an inherit risk, to remove it completely would dumb the game down.

Sometimes, you have to be the first to leave the group because no one can admit the truth.

[Very rare pepe]

looks, another thread calling for punishing people who don't agree with how a dungeon run is going.

It's sad the amount of people who want to force what they consider a 'rage quiter' to stay on play with them. Makes no sense.

PUGs come with an inherit risk, to remove it completely would dumb the game down.

Sometimes, you have to be the first to leave the group because no one can admit the truth.

I had a tank leave 5mins into a really good junkyard key recently because his takeaway had arrived. There needs to be something I can do other than put that guy on ignore to let people know that he was a bellend. It isn't always about 'guy leaves first because the key is failing'

[Great Destiny Man]

I had a tank leave 5mins into a really good junkyard key recently because his takeaway had arrived. There needs to be something I can do other than put that guy on ignore to let people know that he was a bellend. It isn't always about 'guy leaves first because the key is failing'

In that situation he's gone either way. The only difference in choice he'll make with punitive measures is afking rather than leaving the group.

[msdos]

Hi, yes, Lina Inverse. No one is going to want to engage you or listen to you at all if you all do is disagree with people.

[Kuntantee]

Oh, so if I don't like someone I could kick them before the last boss dies so they don't get score?

This describes the current system. You should understand the current system and only then attempt to be smart. In the one I proposed, you'll get -5 points. A ranking system should not attempt to and can not address problems with the kick system. Does this clear things up for you?