Rio, Curve etc. = Elitist?

[rhorle]

That's your problem right there - totally out of context bullshit you conjured from half a sentence.

I totally won't be carrying anyone below my progression level unless they go ahead and pay gold for the boost OR I have some other particular benefit out of it

It wasn't taken out of context. You stated that grouping with anyone below your progression level would be a carry. Because I have never been talking about people that need to be carried but those that are fully capable of doing the content but just not 11/12 Mythic raid. And yet you still took issue with that despite even agreeing with it.

[Gasparde]

I prefer to play with players that are on my level.

I have made all the mistakes in the world, I have learned all the stuff there is to learn, done it all, seen it all, wasted my time, got frustrated, got angry, you name it.
I don't particularly wanna do any of that again. So ideally I would want to play with people with the same history and experience.
I've wiped and depleted keys due me or my buds not knowing mechanics... but then we learned them... and now I'd really hate having to go back to wiping and depleting due to people having to learn again.

Like, I'm not a teacher, I'm not here to teach people how to play the game. That doesn't mean that I'm unwilling to help... but in an ideal world I'd much rather focus on having fun and getting something done instead of retreading the same grounds over and over again. You can be the nicest person in the world... if you just don't know shit about the game, or the dungeon / raid you're in, I really just don't wanna play with you. That's nothing personal, it's just a waste of time. Let's do something else, something we're both good at, or at least equally shit, but I don't want to play this game with newcomers, it's just frustrating.

Now, I wouldn't wanna use pointless and arbitrary shit such as r.io or achievements to determine that as both can be so easily manipulated to fake decent results, but still, I don't wanna play with people who think enchanting their gear, reading a guide, not going afk to take a dump during a run or that reading about a dungeon / boss beforehand is elitist.

[rhorle]

Again, I didn’t say this and if I implied it then it was not on purpose.

When I say that someone is better at something doesn’t mean I think that the others cannot do it at all. I don’t think in extremes like that. And I didn’t mean to imply anything like that.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52377110

You did say it though. Because you said it in direct response to me saying "There is no reason why you, or anyone else, can't enjoy playing with less progressed players when they are still capable of clearing the content being played." This whole time you've been thinking in extremes like that. You used "big pulls in Mythic 15+" as a reason to gate keep lesser progressed players. That is an extreme.

A 5/12 player can be just as a capable as a 11/12 player. And yet you think it is okay to exclude that 5/12 (or even a 10/12) because they are lesser progressed then you. Despite both being capable of doing content based on progression. That is elitism. Gate Keeping not because of lack of ability but because of an arbitrary restriction. Because the difference between 11/12 and 5/12 is arbitrary when it comes to a Mythic +15 and "big pulls". You have even ignored answering if you would be fine being denied from a group you know you can do ( not being carried) simply because you are not 12/12.

Basing an entry requirement on progression that is way higher then the content requires is elitism. Doing it simply because lesser progressed players are less enjoyable or "worse players" is a bad form of elitism. Elitism makes sense for certain activities and isn't always bad. If your doing progress for your guild then it is fine to be an elitist if you have to pug some players. Even a "progression pug" if such a thing can exist is okay to be elitist. Unless it is overt toxicity.

[Gaidax]

It wasn't taken out of context. You stated that grouping with anyone below your progression level would be a carry. Because I have never been talking about people that need to be carried but those that are fully capable of doing the content but just not 11/12 Mythic raid. And yet you still took issue with that despite even agreeing with it.

See? Then how the fuck pray tell: I totally won't be carrying anyone below my progression level unless they go ahead and pay gold for the boost OR I have some other particular benefit out of it

turned into

"anyone who groups with you is carried by you automatically because of your presence?"

You literally made shit up right there and you wonder why I say you are a shitposter making shit up.

Some people...

[Garymorilix]

It all depends on the content you're doing.

Asking for more Rio than what the content requires is just sad. Even if it's on farm.
If you wanna do a +15 it doesn't matter whether someone has 2k, 3k or 4k RiO.
Desperately waiting for 3k ppl at that point is just sad.

Same thing with raid. You want a HC raid farm? Okay. Asking for curve for the first 5-6 bosses? Nah. If you need 12/12 players for Wrathion then you suck at actually leading a group. Plus you can replace anyone anytime.

At least you do have the score that you are asking for, that's a plus. I love those Mythic raid pugs asking for achiv when they don't even have it. Then they get themselves carried. Pathetic.

[Kaver]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52377110

You did say it though. Because you said it in direct response to me saying "There is no reason why you, or anyone else, can't enjoy playing with less progressed players when they are still capable of clearing the content being played." This whole time you've been thinking in extremes like that. You used "big pulls in Mythic 15+" as a reason to gate keep lesser progressed players. That is an extreme.

A 5/12 player can be just as a capable as a 11/12 player. And yet you think it is okay to exclude that 5/12 (or even a 10/12) because they are lesser progressed then you. Despite both being capable of doing content based on progression. That is elitism. Gate Keeping not because of lack of ability but because of an arbitrary restriction. Because the difference between 11/12 and 5/12 is arbitrary when it comes to a Mythic +15 and "big pulls". You have even ignored answering if you would be fine being denied from a group you know you can do ( not being carried) simply because you are not 12/12.

Basing an entry requirement on progression that is way higher then the content requires is elitism. Doing it simply because lesser progressed players are less enjoyable or "worse players" is a bad form of elitism. Elitism makes sense for certain activities and isn't always bad. If your doing progress for your guild then it is fine to be an elitist if you have to pug some players. Even a "progression pug" if such a thing can exist is okay to be elitist. Unless it is overt toxicity.

When you said someone who is able to clear the content I thought you meant someone who is just barely able to do a standard +15 key. But if you mean someone who can easily handle big pulls in m+ but doesn’t have any mythic progression then we agree. If I’m doing m+ then I don’t care about raid progession. If someone has 3k rio then it doesn’t matter at all how much raid progession they have. The same applies the other way around when it comes to raiding. I would never say that people need raid progression to join my group for m+.

Also to answer your question, yes I would be okay with the rejection but I also have a very easy time finding groups in general so that might be the reason why.

[Ichology]

It isn't elitist to want to play with people at or around your skill level, but like some others mentioned, the ones with sub 2.5-3k scores asking for 3k+for like a 15 are... elitist isn't the word, more like... delusional.

I've ran into quite a few recently returned players as of late (which there are a lot of for some reason, on Horde US at least) with sub 2k scores in 15-17's that straight up carried the key in a group with a 3k *insert random havoc demon hunter* that doesn't even know all ofthe mechanics of the dungeon, and clearly have spent the last few months overgearing and out scaling the level of content they're in.

[Kaver]

It isn't elitist to want to play with people at or around your skill level, but like some others mentioned, the ones with sub 2.5-3k scores asking for 3k+for like a 15 are... elitist isn't the word, more like... delusional.

I've ran into quite a few recently returned players as of late (which there are a lot of for some reason, on Horde US at least) with sub 2k scores in 15-17's that straight up carried the key in a group with a 3k *insert random havoc demon hunter* that doesn't even know all ofthe mechanics of the dungeon, and clearly have spent the last few months overgearing and out scaling the level of content they're in.

Yeah those people aren’t elitists.. they are just scammers.

[rhorle]

See? Then how the fuck pray tell: I totally won't be carrying anyone below my progression level unless they go ahead and pay gold for the boost OR I have some other particular benefit out of it turned into "anyone who groups with you is carried by you automatically because of your presence?" You literally made shit up right there and you wonder why I say you are a shitposter making shit up. Some people...

If you group with someone below your progression level you stated it would be a carry which means your presence in the group automatically makes it a carry. I didn't make anything up. That comment is directly referencing my post, https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52377735, which you refuted as well. So leaving out you are grouping with lesser progressed players is irrelevant since it is both implied and refuted by you as well.

[Gaidax]

If you group with someone below your progression level you stated it would be a carry which means your presence in the group automatically makes it a carry. I didn't make anything up. That comment is directly referencing my post, https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52377735, which you refuted as well. So leaving out you are grouping with lesser progressed players is irrelevant since it is both implied and refuted by you as well.

You said anyone, so now it's not anyone? Eh?

Then on top of that I told flat that I consider people who are around my level in progression to be good to go - my progression 12/12M and I have the OMGHOMGH 1800 RIO...

I think expecting 1800 RIO for +15 is a fair game and when it comes to raiding I plainly said that 12/12 or 11/12 or anything around that is fine - the gap begins when you match 12/12M and frikkin' 3/12M, that's different levels allright and I totally not going to go for Mythic raid with a bunch of 3/12M guys who barely dipped their toes in it and have no idea about how things even work beyond these 3 bosses in Mythic.

See? Not quite the picture you conjured there.


So yes, by the very frikkin' definition of it - if I'd join a normal or heroic run - chances are I'd carry that run. If I'd join +6 or even +10 - you can bet your ass I'd carry it hard. Heck I can even carry +15 if I join some ragtag pug, simply because my gear is straight out of Mythic raid and optimal at that. That's the reality of it. I'm not shamed to say that.

But don't go and turn this into some frikkin' Napoleon syndrome where anyone who is my vicinity gets automatically carried by me no matter what. That's just bullshit you made up right there.

[rhorle]

When you said someone who is able to clear the content I thought you meant someone who is just barely able to do a standard +15 key. But if you mean someone who can easily handle big pulls in m+ but doesn’t have any mythic progression then we agree. If I’m doing m+ then I don’t care about raid progession. If someone has 3k rio then it doesn’t matter at all how much raid progession they have. The same applies the other way around when it comes to raiding. I would never say that people need raid progression to join my group for m+. Also to answer your question, yes I would be okay with the rejection but I also have a very easy time finding groups in general so that might be the reason why.

Clearing content is clearing content. A mythic+ with big pulls is still the content being done and doesn't require 11/12 progression or the non-raid equivalent raider IO in order to do. 3k rio is based on their progression in either raids or Mythic+ so progression does matter entirely. You can't get that high of a score with out having progression otherwise the entire system wouldn't be good for anything.

So if you had trouble finding groups your opinion of overly high progression for content would change? Because that is what you are implying. Either way though that shouldn't happen. Something being bad shouldn't change based on how easily you find groups or experience it. It is bad to have higher requirements then is required to clear the content and that is elitist. There is nothing wrong with being elitist but it is an easy path to toxicity depending on how you employ it.

Rejecting someone who can do that content simply because they are not equally as progressed as you? Bad elitism.
Rejecting someone who can do that content simply because they are not equally as progressed as you but it is for a group pushing progression? Not bad elitism. Though it is entirely possible that person can exceed expectations (or even better then a person who has been "carried" to a high rio).

[Aucald]

Is it elitist? Yes, I would say pretty much definitively - you set the bar for others based on your own high expectations, and that's pretty much what elitism is. Is it bad? Well, that's a fuzzier distinction - on the personal level I would be inclined to say "no," it's not really bad. It effects only you and your group, really; and people who don't make your personal cut can hopefully have better luck elsewhere. I don't think R.IO, Curve, WoWProgress or anything like that really gives the clearest picture of how skilled or worthy a given player is, to be honest, but that's also neither here nor there.

The problem with elitism in WoW isn't really a personal one, it's an institutionalized one - one where seemingly *everyone* wants to set the bar arbitrarily and unrealistically high and thus effectively acts as gatekeepers to keep the more "casual" segment of the playerbase eternally on the outside. No one person is really responsible for that, to be honest; we all share in the blame for it. Elitism and WoW isn't a problem that can be fixed until the community itself decides to change it en masse.

[rhorle]

You said anyone, so now it's not anyone? Eh?

Anyone below your progression. You didn't specify the specifics of those below your progression. You agree with my view but are fighting against it for whatever reason I can't fathom. It is the picture I "conjured" because you made those statements. It am not turning it into anything. You stated anyone of lesser progression would be carried by you. You didn't originally provide exceptions. I didn't make shit up you did by clarifying it while at the same time denying you made the statement you clarified.

I have no issues being a bad guy and I'll say it straight - I totally won't be carrying anyone below my progression level unless they go ahead and pay gold for the boost OR I have some other particular benefit out of it, like doing weekly 15 key because I missed guild group one. Elitism? No, it's not. So cut the woke crap - "would somebody please think about the children???".

You used anyone, but I am bad for using anyone. Funny isn't that?

[Gaidax]

Anyone below your progression. You didn't specify the specifics of those below your progression.

So you went on and made up whatever you want in your head and started tossing it out? OK, buddy.

That's exactly what I am talking about.

[rhorle]

So you went on and made up whatever you want in your head and started tossing it out? OK, buddy.That's exactly what I am talking about.

I have no issues being a bad guy and I'll say it straight - I totally won't be carrying anyone below my progression level unless they go ahead and pay gold for the boost OR I have some other particular benefit out of it, like doing weekly 15 key because I missed guild group one. Elitism? No, it's not. So cut the woke crap - "would somebody please think about the children???".

I didn't make up the word anyone. You used it but somehow I am bad for using it as well. If that is exactly what you are talking about then you perfectly explaining the concept of elitism. You can use a word but others can not use it because of some arbitrary distinction. The context was there and you knew it was about those lower then your progression until you thought it was some smoking gun to use against me.

[Gaidax]

I didn't make up the word anyone. You used it but somehow I am bad for using it as well. If that is exactly what you are talking about then you perfectly explaining the concept of elitism. You can use a word but others can not use it because of some arbitrary distinction. The context was there and you knew it was about those lower then your progression until you thought it was some smoking gun to use against me.

You literally made shit up from some logic leap you made in your mind, got called out for it and now you try to latch onto some other comment you can find just to do it all over again.

Pitiful.

I think I already clarified my position on the topic plenty enough for you, you don't need to go ahead and further push your delirium here on me.

[LordVargK]

Both. If you run any key under 15 without the intend to push it and require a high rio score, then I don't like you. But you are still within your right as the keyowner to do as you please.

But really, anybody who uses raider io for keys under 10 is a pseudo elitist jerk. There's absolutely no need for that.

[Denso]

I usually stay away from groups where the leader puts his own score or higher in the title as requirement.

There's no surer sign of "We need a booster cause we've been boosted to this rating and now we have no clue what to do".

[Sofo1]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52377110

You did say it though. Because you said it in direct response to me saying "There is no reason why you, or anyone else, can't enjoy playing with less progressed players when they are still capable of clearing the content being played." This whole time you've been thinking in extremes like that. You used "big pulls in Mythic 15+" as a reason to gate keep lesser progressed players. That is an extreme.

A 5/12 player can be just as a capable as a 11/12 player. And yet you think it is okay to exclude that 5/12 (or even a 10/12) because they are lesser progressed then you. Despite both being capable of doing content based on progression. That is elitism. Gate Keeping not because of lack of ability but because of an arbitrary restriction. Because the difference between 11/12 and 5/12 is arbitrary when it comes to a Mythic +15 and "big pulls". You have even ignored answering if you would be fine being denied from a group you know you can do ( not being carried) simply because you are not 12/12.

Basing an entry requirement on progression that is way higher then the content requires is elitism. Doing it simply because lesser progressed players are less enjoyable or "worse players" is a bad form of elitism. Elitism makes sense for certain activities and isn't always bad. If your doing progress for your guild then it is fine to be an elitist if you have to pug some players. Even a "progression pug" if such a thing can exist is okay to be elitist. Unless it is overt toxicity.

depending on what content is being done are you concidering picking a 11/12 for that 11th fight again over a player that only cleared 5/12 elitism?

[cparle87]

Its also not healthy for the game long term.

If people cant even get invited to a heroic Pug then why bother playing WoW?

"less bads is good"

Yes because people cant get better when they play more and experience more difficult content and get the taste.

Instead you need to have completed the content to partake in the content which is a chicken before an egg. Wonder why people dont bother trying to get into the game anymore and blizz are bending over backwards with game changes trying to bring in new players for once.

"Why should i care if others play or not"

Because empty servers are shit and its a multiple player game that is better with more people playing it.

Exactly.