Rio, Curve etc. = Elitist?

[Ichology]

Is it elitist? Yes, I would say pretty much definitively - you set the bar for others based on your own high expectations, and that's pretty much what elitism is. Is it bad? Well, that's a fuzzier distinction - on the personal level I would be inclined to say "no," it's not really bad. It effects only you and your group, really; and people who don't make your personal cut can hopefully have better luck elsewhere. I don't think R.IO, Curve, WoWProgress or anything like that really gives the clearest picture of how skilled or worthy a given player is, to be honest, but that's also neither here nor there.

The problem with elitism in WoW isn't really a personal one, it's an institutionalized one - one where seemingly *everyone* wants to set the bar arbitrarily and unrealistically high and thus effectively acts as gatekeepers to keep the more "casual" segment of the playerbase eternally on the outside. No one person is really responsible for that, to be honest; we all share in the blame for it. Elitism and WoW isn't a problem that can be fixed until the community itself decides to change it en masse.

The second paragraph describes the issue with "elitism" currently pretty well. At the mid level, where it is ironically the worst, gatekeeping in the game is and has been extreme for years now, and it definitely plays a role in retention (or lack thereof).

Funnily enough, at the top (let's say HOF level) guilds don't care how new you are, what game you came from, or where you're from: recruiters will find your logs and contact you for applications if you're doing well. It's been that way since Wrath in the worldoflogs days, and is even moreso now. A lot of the aformentioned type of players could learn from the attitude of those who are much better at the game than their ego makes them believe they are and be more open to promising new players on their rosters.

[Aucald]

The second paragraph describes the issue with "elitism" currently pretty well. At the mid level, where it is ironically the worst, gatekeeping in the game is and has been extreme for years now, and it definitely plays a role in retention (or lack thereof).

It's the kind of pernicious and persistent elitism where groups doing Mythic 0 runs want iLvl 460+ geared people to join them. The higher the iLvl the better, because one or more members of the group want assistance getting carried. And the answer is a perennial "make your own group," but the low iLvl people making their own groups have the same issue - they want a successful and no-fuss run, so they ask for outrageous requirements, etc. etc. Until the community adopts an "it's okay for people to make mistakes as long as the run is successful" mindset, it'll continue to be a problem. The higher you ascend the ladder, the more rarefied the air becomes, so to speak.

R.IO, Curve, and WoWProgress doesn't cause the behavior, it existed long before they did in the ages of GearScore and PowerScore, and all the way back into Classic WoW.

[Edward Wu]

It's the kind of pernicious and persistent elitism where groups doing Mythic 0 runs want iLvl 460+ geared people to join them.

I have never seen this in-game literally ever, so I'm not sure it's actual reality.

[Aucald]

I have never seen this in-game literally ever, so I'm not sure it's actual reality.

I have, many times. Same with groups running a normal raid clear asking for people who join to have AotC for the current tier/that raid - putting everyone who may well be geared and skilled enough to run said raid behind a proverbial wall, and adding the double-penalty of not being able to complete the thing they need to complete to meet the arbitrary achievement requirement (for other groups).

If a handful of groups do this it's not a big issue - if almost everyone does it then it's a problem, especially for those players who may not have a guild that raids, or strange time restrictions on their play (like having an on-call position at their job).

[Dunkelzahn]

And the collective opinions of the pro-Rio crowd in this thread is exactly why WoW's community is as horrible as it is, and why the game is losing subscriptions like water through a colander.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Why would you even pug if you are actually good at the game. The sheer thought alone makes want to throw up. The weirdest part about these threads is the obsession with being at the top of the pug world..

[Redroniksre]

I mean i think it is a fine system it is just how people use it. It will fuel those elitists but i find elitist to be more of an attitude than an action. Only taking people with achievement is fine, berating a player for not having it is not.

Not really much they can do about this one, breaking it purposefully will just bring rise to another method. Maybe add a queue option for those who want to bang their head against a wall for a few hours?

Why would you even pug if you are actually good at the game. The sheer thought alone makes want to throw up. The weirdest part about these threads is the obsession with being at the top of the pug world..

For people who have unpredictable schedules it is simply easier. I am only up for a few hours at a time during the weekday and at night during the weekend, so pug is the only way to really get groups on demand.

[Dunkelzahn]

I'd much prefer to eliminate all forms of seeing what another character has done, is geared in, or has otherwise accomplished in the game. God forbid players having to actually socialize, experiment, and develop a network of friends, and be open to teaching newer/less experienced players how to play better rather than just shouting at them, kicking them from a group, and acting like they have the moral high ground in it all.

[Tiwack]

You'd have to define it first: People who would rather take the time to get up in each others shit, than take the time to share strat and tactics, trusting others atleast to communicate, know their class and a bit of what they're signing up for when something says mythic, let alone raid.

The tools are fine but people use them in awful ways just because they can and think it gets them better results all around, trading one obvious pitfall for another that ends up having them wonder how they ended up playing this game in the first place. There's so many other alternatives that don't ask for nearly the same time commitment nor amount of hoops to jump through just to play optimally/be competitive. It's hard to have fun when having to do what others expect of you just so you're able to play with them.

[Alkizon]

Still just very long period of wrong world/servers/content+progress and mechanisms of social regulation/organization... and nothing more. People just adapt to survive in conditions "imposed" by devs <= this is key/main reason.

5. About dungeons&requirements also M+/modes (+RNG+g.tokens+t/wf) +(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+)+(+)+(+/+/+)
6. Bad world (and not only) scaling +(+)+/+/+/+/+/+/+/+
7. Little about loot policy +(+/+/+)
8. Servers type/org (WM&MMO+changes'soc.psycho.res+auto/subscr) +(+/+/+/+/+)+(+)+(+/+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+/+)
9. Quests/leveling (&levels) +(+/+)+(+)
10. Threat philosophy & badge system & W.Boss mechanics (it's not mine, but I won't do this better) +/+/+

Age-long, I’m afraid that it’s so long that it has already turned into chronic disease, which "local doctors" prefer not to notice.

[pitakos]

Exactly.

Thats wrong and out of context . If you havent done the achievement means you havent progressed the raid .If you want to progress the raid then you will have to join a guild or a raid that IS going for progress. A group made by experienced people that asks only experienced people is not meant for someone who has not the experience.

A group made for reclear is not a group meant for proggresion , so someone lacking the experience is looking at the wrong place to start with . He should be searching for progression raids, or make his own, not hustle people who have already done that work already .

Its like me thinking i rightfully belong to NBA and should be in it without having to be drafted or have any achievements to show for

[Kaver]

3k rio is based on their progression in either raids or Mythic+.

This here shows me that you probably don't play the game. Am I right?

Raiding has nothing to do with your rio score.

[T-34]

I have, many times. Same with groups running a normal raid clear asking for people who join to have AotC for the current tier/that raid - putting everyone who may well be geared and skilled enough to run said raid behind a proverbial wall, and adding the double-penalty of not being able to complete the thing they need to complete to meet the arbitrary achievement requirement (for other groups).

If a handful of groups do this it's not a big issue - if almost everyone does it then it's a problem, especially for those players who may not have a guild that raids, or strange time restrictions on their play (like having an on-call position at their job).

Nobody owes you anything! You do not have the right to join other people's group!

There is no such thing as gatekeeping. Nobody can forbid you to do content, but you might have to do the content yourself = make you own GODDAM group!!!!

I mean why do shit players who are unable to kill N'zoth on normal have this almost sexual urge to play with people who are much more skilled than they are?
People should make their own group with people of the same skill level and enjoy the game on a level that befits them.

[Alkizon]

Its like me thinking i rightfully belong to NBA

*giggled*

There happened time I also tried to explain this and looks like failed to get through this wall:

Forogil
But I assume there are some that think FIFA should ban everything but the top soccer-games to make Messi more awe-inspiring.

Or, may be: FIFA is raid's (or dungeon's?) end part and amateur league is its beginning (could be said that children's league is accessible part of outdoor content, but this also won't be true, since its design follows same rules of progress)

Forogil
Everyone is free to play such soccer

But only at the stage of progress available to them (which means for this game and content, which is also true for the world records of "this stage of progress", and now you even begin to compare its variety, and not specific competitions to which you so much tried to refer, do you trying to dodge? ). Do you still misunderstand the obvious?

you literally understood nothing of FIFA explanation

Here (progress stuff): <1>-<2>-<3>-<4>-<5>-<6>-<7>-<8>-<9>-<10>-<11>

Take it as "You win by tortured me"

[Coldkil]

Do you think that makes me an elitist or do you think it's a fair preference?

Edit: Also, is being an elitist a bad thing?

Yes, you're an elitist. But this is not inherently bad - it's you cutting out most of the playerbase which likely is unable to tackle that kind of difficult content.

The problem is that MOST players do the same thing, even the ones that have "no right" to do so. While everyone says "i can choose whatever i want for my group" and it's plain truth, the situation is that everyone does the same thing and excludes everyone else in the wrong way until they're going to zerg content.

It's leading to ridiculous situation like the meme:

"X raid, Y ilvl, link curve"
"i have ilvl but not curve"
"then go raid"
"i'm here for that"
"link curve"

It's literally happening. And it's the majority of times. So, you can be an elitist as much as you want if that's what makes you happy. You won't ever find yourself in the situation of being unable to do content because of an arbitrary number/tool people is unable to use.

[misterrium]

Hi everyone. I hope you're all having a nice spring day.

I play WoW. I'm a 11/12 mythic raider and I have a 3k rio score.

I prefer to play with people who got approximately the same experience with current content as myself.

Therefore I use systems like Raider.io, Wowprogress, Warcraftlog etc. to see how much experience people have with current content to compare it to my own.

Do you think that makes me an elitist or do you think it's a fair preference?

Edit: Also, is being an elitist a bad thing?

You know its a bad thing and behaving like that makes you shit so you ask it here like its church here and you want to atone for your sins

[Coldkil]

Nobody can forbid you to do content, but you might have to do the content yourself = make you own GODDAM group!!!
People should make their own group with people of the same skill level and enjoy the game on a level that befits them.

That's right. However most people that do their own groups are the ones that actually have useless requirements exactly because they're the ones that want to be carried.

You're also right that people should group with roughly equally skilled players, but they simply won't.

[Kaver]

So if you had trouble finding groups your opinion of overly high progression for content would change?

No it wouldn't change. Also I make my own groups most of the time and I would especially do that if I was underqualified to join someone elses group.

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly.

It's very simple. You have 2 groups:

Group A: People who have progressed an beaten the content.

Group B: People who are still progressing and learning the content.

These two groups should not play together. The problem is that people from group B are expecting to join group A without progressing first. There are a lot of people out there in the game who have not progressed the raid yet (Group B) and those people should make a raid group together because they are on an even playing field and want the same things.

Group A who have already progressed the raid do not want to do it all over again with new random people.

[Nite92]

I don't see r.io as elitest, but AOTC can be pretty elitest and toxic, especially when those who have it gatekeep those who don't. Pugs/Guilds sometimes are the answer, sometimes not.

I disagree completely, but I am curious how would arrive at such a conclusion.

I assume with gatekeeping you mean that people with ATOC do not invite people without ATOC.
Why do you think you are entitled to join an ATOC group if you dont have it? I mean those people (or atleast all that didnt buy it) went through the progress of clearing the HC raid. Why do you think it is acceptable that those people have to reprogress each week. If you argue now that HC is "easy" do the experiment. Invite the first 460+ people that apply to your hc pug, and even though you overgear it, this raid will have a really low chance to kill N'zoth within reasonable timeframe (let's say 4-6hrs).

I think it is toxic that you feel entitled to join "farm raids" when you have never killed the bosses.

[kamuimac]

Hi everyone. I hope you're all having a nice spring day.

I play WoW. I'm a 11/12 mythic raider and I have a 3k rio score.

I prefer to play with people who got approximately the same experience with current content as myself.

Therefore I use systems like Raider.io, Wowprogress, Warcraftlog etc. to see how much experience people have with current content to compare it to my own.

Do you think that makes me an elitist or do you think it's a fair preference?

Edit: Also, is being an elitist a bad thing?

"since you dont have 12/12 mythic and hall of fame you shouldnt even be allowed to speak about it"

see how it works ?

there is always someone higer up the "food chain" .

always