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  1. #301
    When they got rid of 10man raiding, I stopped raiding & havent since. I would love for it to return, but I doubt it will.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    The switch to 20M was signalled more than a year in advance and the existence of a 25M Heroic community helped ease the process. (I was in a 10M Heroic guild that raided from 2:30 AM to 6:30 AM four nights a week and we managed to not only get a 20M roster but were one of the few guilds to kill Mythic Blackhand.) A switch back to smaller raids will repeat what we saw at the beginning of Cata: A complete implosion. (Seriously, look at the graphs in that thread I linked. Something like 85% of 25M Heroic guilds simply ceased to exist from one raid tier to the next.)
    Most guilds didn't make the jump, the switch killed MANY 10 man guilds.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpbladez View Post
    When they got rid of 10man raiding, I stopped raiding & havent since. I would love for it to return, but I doubt it will.
    I mean its still there in normal and heroic

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I mean its still there in normal and heroic
    Only if you don't want any challenge

  5. #305
    I would love to see the role distribution in these "want 10 man back" topics.

    I raided as healer. In 10 man groups your responsibility is so much bigger than in a 20/25 man group. There is you and the other healer and that's it. Some like the extra stress, not me. Especially not as those days resto shaman (wouldn't know how resto plays nowadays, haven't raided since mid wod, but back then nuissances were apparent, even in mop)

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Only if you don't want any challenge
    I mean beyond seige of org you never really had a challenge in 10 man. It was far easier by design for almost every tier

  7. #307
    What I could imagine tho (which would drive everyone else mad) is content like Kara back then. A 10 man specific raid. Where everything is tuned for 10 man. The size of the rooms, the (number of) abilities, everything.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I mean beyond seige of org you never really had a challenge in 10 man. It was far easier by design for almost every tier
    Not just Siege, and even at it's easiest 10 man heroic(mythic) was much harder than current heroic

  9. #309
    Absolutely throw my support in for 10man

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Most guilds didn't make the jump, the switch killed MANY 10 man guilds.
    Alright, but how much of that was because people weren't actually serious about raiding and how much of that was because people just didn't want to raid in larger groups? Because, like, if it isn't the latter, you'd think my guild that raided in the middle of the fucking night wouldn't have been able to recruit the right players... but we did. Obviously anecdotal but it stands to reason that the biggest group of players negatively impacted by the switch to 20M Mythic wasn't the progression-oriented 10M's (though there was some collateral damage, as the many voices in this thread prove), it was the innumerable casual Heroic 10M guilds that weren't all that serious about raiding in the first place.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Alright, but how much of that was because people weren't actually serious about raiding and how much of that was because people just didn't want to raid in larger groups? Because, like, if it isn't the latter, you'd think my guild that raided in the middle of the fucking night wouldn't have been able to recruit the right players... but we did. Obviously anecdotal but it stands to reason that the biggest group of players negatively impacted by the switch to 20M Mythic wasn't the progression-oriented 10M's (though there was some collateral damage, as the many voices in this thread prove), it was the innumerable casual Heroic 10M guilds that weren't all that serious about raiding in the first place.
    We don't know, but there was really no reason to cause it in the first place. For me, I don't like large group raiding. I tried mythic 20 at the start, it just wasn't fun. I prefer the small, intimate, raid groups.

    I dealt with 40 and then 25 man when it was required, I'm not going back to that, 10 man is just so much better.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    We don't know, but there was really no reason to cause it in the first place. For me, I don't like large group raiding. I tried mythic 20 at the start, it just wasn't fun. I prefer the small, intimate, raid groups.

    I dealt with 40 and then 25 man when it was required, I'm not going back to that, 10 man is just so much better.
    Seeing as we're largely arguing from our own personal perspectives and it's unlikely we'll change each other minds, a question for you: Would you be as satisfied if Blizzard were to release two or three smaller 10M-only raids to supplement the larger 20M Mythic raids? Or would you only be satisfied if the only way to raid is a version of Mythic that either flexes or is 10M fixed?

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Seeing as we're largely arguing from our own personal perspectives and it's unlikely we'll change each other minds, a question for you: Would you be as satisfied if Blizzard were to release two or three smaller 10M-only raids to supplement the larger 20M Mythic raids? Or would you only be satisfied if the only way to raid is a version of Mythic that either flexes or is 10M fixed?
    I'd be fine with an equally difficult 10 man raid of equal quality to to the main raid of that patch, of equal length and I have a better chance of growing a third arm than of that happening.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Laughingjack View Post
    I mean beyond seige of org you never really had a challenge in 10 man. It was far easier by design for almost every tier


    Listen here, I don't know on which private server you were playing but it wasn't far easier on retail. And definitely wasn't even close to current heroic.

    Exact top 200 guilds and duration it took them to kill from first to last boss:

    T13 (10M HC)
    1st boss: Dec 7, 2011 18:20
    Last boss: Feb 10, 2012 19:27

    Total: 65 days

    T13 (25M HC)
    1st boss: Dec 7, 2011 20:54
    Last boss: Feb 22, 2012 20:57

    Total: 77 days

    T15 (10M HC)
    1st boss: Mar 13, 2013 20:31
    Last boss: Jun 20, 2013 18:37

    Total: 99 days

    T15 (25M HC)
    1st boss: Mar 27, 2013 01:56
    Last boss: Aug 6, 2013 02:35

    Total: 132 days

    T16 (10M HC)
    1st boss: Sep 18, 2013 20:37
    Last boss: Jan 28, 2014 19:28

    Total: 132 days

    T15 (25M HC)
    1st boss: Sep 18, 2013 02:39
    Last boss: Feb 7, 2014 05:30

    Total: 142 days

    Nyalotha 20 Mythic
    1st boss: Jan 30, 2020 18:12
    Last boss: Apr 5, 2020

    Total: 66 days

    Nyalotha random amount of people heroic PUG

    Total ~5 days (at worst), prolly cleared day 1

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    I would love to see the role distribution in these "want 10 man back" topics.

    I raided as healer. In 10 man groups your responsibility is so much bigger than in a 20/25 man group. There is you and the other healer and that's it. Some like the extra stress, not me. Especially not as those days resto shaman (wouldn't know how resto plays nowadays, haven't raided since mid wod, but back then nuissances were apparent, even in mop)
    It was quite nuts when I was seeing guilds solo heal fights in particular ones where spacing was involved leading to coverage gaps. It is something larger groups do not have to deal with. If I recall correctly blizzard did entertain 15 man as a possibility while effectively nodding that 10 mans due to class competition is just not on the table anymore.

    I have longed liked the idea of 15 man groups and loathe the thought of 10 mans coming back. If I want a tight nit group then I will stick with 5 mans.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Only if you don't want any challenge
    challenge is subjective,and considering there are more people doing hc than doing mythic,id say its challenge enough for them,heck plenty of normal only guilds out there,and yes there are guilds out there with people that simply cant make the jump to mythic or even hc

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post


    Listen here, I don't know on which private server you were playing but it wasn't far easier on retail. And definitely wasn't even close to current heroic.

    Exact top 200 guilds and duration it took them to kill from first to last boss:

    T13 (10M HC)
    1st boss: Dec 7, 2011 18:20
    Last boss: Feb 10, 2012 19:27

    Total: 65 days

    T13 (25M HC)
    1st boss: Dec 7, 2011 20:54
    Last boss: Feb 22, 2012 20:57

    Total: 77 days

    T15 (10M HC)
    1st boss: Mar 13, 2013 20:31
    Last boss: Jun 20, 2013 18:37

    Total: 99 days

    T15 (25M HC)
    1st boss: Mar 27, 2013 01:56
    Last boss: Aug 6, 2013 02:35

    Total: 132 days

    T16 (10M HC)
    1st boss: Sep 18, 2013 20:37
    Last boss: Jan 28, 2014 19:28

    Total: 132 days

    T15 (25M HC)
    1st boss: Sep 18, 2013 02:39
    Last boss: Feb 7, 2014 05:30

    Total: 142 days

    Nyalotha 20 Mythic
    1st boss: Jan 30, 2020 18:12
    Last boss: Apr 5, 2020

    Total: 66 days

    Nyalotha random amount of people heroic PUG

    Total ~5 days (at worst), prolly cleared day 1
    I mean most kills were done by the same 25 man team that just cleared the tier. It wasn't used for progression in most instances..

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    It was quite nuts when I was seeing guilds solo heal fights in particular ones where spacing was involved leading to coverage gaps. It is something larger groups do not have to deal with. If I recall correctly blizzard did entertain 15 man as a possibility while effectively nodding that 10 mans due to class competition is just not on the table anymore.

    I have longed liked the idea of 15 man groups and loathe the thought of 10 mans coming back. If I want a tight nit group then I will stick with 5 mans.
    the ability to solo heal has many more factors to it,boss design,is there more unavoidable damage coming in than one healer can manage?how does the tank fair?if you have figths where the tank is taking consistant damage and the raid,then solo healing wont be very posible,these days solo healing is a bit hard because of mecanical reasons,but in hfc for example it was pretty easy,as a shaman i could solo heal every hc boss in a 20 ish grp,mostly because the tank needed like no healing back then

  19. #319
    Here is a reason I do not want to see 10 man raids come into the game ever again

    Guilds Broke down cause of 10 man raiding. I had to say goodbye to my friends who were doing JUST fine in 25 man, but didnt pull the numbers or had the buffs we needed in 10 mans. Your class didnt have a reliable interupt? Gone. You dont bring mark of the wild? Fuck off warlock, DKs and Druids can bres too.

    MMORPGS are about socializing, working as a team, and progressing through the content. Making raid sizes smaller always meant less socializing. Yes, it was hard saying goodbye to people when 25 man raiding became the norm, but it was still fine. 25 people on comms was alot better and more organized than 40.

    Like I said in an earlier post, 10 and 20 man mythic cannot coexist with Personal Loot. If personal Loot is still a thing, no legit raiding team will go 20 man raiding simply because there is no point in making things harder on themselves and that punishes people who do have legit 20 man raid teams. Hell my guild has upwards of nearly 26 players on for Mythic Nights and nearly 40 players online on our weekend heroic team / alt team. Big guilds are not dead but 10 man raiding would be the final nail in the coffin for big guilds because while we love to socialize, we do like progression, and players will ALWAYS choose the path of least resistance.

    Also 10 man raiding would bring with it the same arguments I saw in Cataclysm when 10 man Heroics were a thing. People were legitimately asking for 5 man heroic raiding. If 10 man mythic raiding becomes a thing, thats the next thing people ask for. Then Raiding will no longer be raiding, they will simply be long form dungeons with better loot.

    I am happy with the 20 man raiding scene. I feel like its the sweet spot for raiding. I just wish they would open up Cross Realm right away so we could trial players or even have raiders not in our guild and save them money.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Arctestoid View Post
    I

    Cons:

    Less gear drops

    Easier to leave a guild and join another 10 man group. Doubled edged sword of 10 man raiding.

    ?


    What are your opinions on Mythic raiding in it's current state? the biggest thing for me has always been getting to know more and more people, it's difficult to juggle all of that and real life at times, 10 man raiding was fun, engaging, and it felt more..personal between the 10 members in the raid.


    Thanks for contributing to my post!
    A con is that it's impossible to balance and adds another tier of gear into the mix. Like flex now there are were some fights that were easier on 10-man and some that were way harder.

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