Are "oneshot" groups okay?

[prwraith]

Not at all. I jus would like to hear peoples opinion on this subject, because a lot of people seem to think that the raiding scene is unfair.

You got the same exact opinions in the other thread.

[TrollHunter3000]

When it comes to raid progession (no matter what difficulty it is) we have two groups in a simplified version:

Group 1) People who have progressed.

Group 2) People who have not progressed yet.

Naturally Group 2 often would like some help from Group 1.

Now the questions are:

Should Group 1 feel obliged to help Group 2 even though it means they would have to spend time reprogressing the content? Or is it fair to want a quick reclear of content which they have already beaten?

Should people from Group 2 stop expecting help from Group 1 and instead make raid-teams with other people from Group 2 so they can progress together?

Edit: I realize now that this sounds like a guild scenario, but it’s not meant to be. Group 1 and Group 2 are representations of the player base in general. My bad.

Why should they feel obliged? Of course they shouldn't.

[Ryuda]

I don't think players who have progressed should feel obligated to help those who have not.

I also don't think that players who have zero, or close to zero progression should expect to be carried through content for free.

That's why one of the first things I do when I pug on alts is reverse vet the group's leader. (And honestly, most of the "One-shot no noobs AotC only 470+ Big Dick Energy DPS only!" groups are actually lead by people in the OP's second group, not the first). If they don't have a minimum of their own requirements, I simply don't apply.

It's probably not realistic, and admittedly, it likely would only further fortify the divide between the two groups, but I still think the best solution would be to somehow reward players to group with those of similar skill/progression. Otherwise, yeah, I can understand the appeal of putting up requirements that are above and beyond what's needed. Eventually, you'll find enough people who didn't bother to look you up, and get carried. It's the path of least resistance, which is what most humans will take.

[Kaver]

Why should they feel obliged?

That's the question

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You got the same exact opinions in the other thread.

What other thread?

[Mardux]

But should you be obligated to do it?

You've gotten several answers, it just seems like you don't like the response so you just keep repeating the question hoping for something different.

If its a pug and you don't want to clear the content, don't help. If its a pug and you want to clear it, help.

If its your guild run and you don't want to stifle guild progression, help. If its your guild group and you cant be bothered to help your guild, don't help. That simple.

[Chumahki]

Build a man a fire and you keep him warm for a night. Set a man of fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

[Tuor]

The POV of someone that is no longer playing the game.

Should Group 1 feel obliged to help Group 2 even though it means they would have to spend time reprogressing the content? Or is it fair to want a quick reclear of content which they have already beaten?

It depends, i can give an example.
Back in wrath, during 3.3 ICC, the comon way to progress was by start farming badges, once you got the ToC itl232, you could start farming icc5man for the weapons and trinkets and all other stuff. But what people normally did, was jumping to the normal modes, which droped a itl219 gear, and once they fineshed farming that gear they would start farming the HC's, which droped itlvl232 gear, when that happened the result was normally a bunch of wipes.
Even that my shammy was not full ICC geared (itlvl 251), i keeped farming those 5man instances for whille, most times just for fun. I don't mind helping other people, i was GM of a guild for a whille, and i always boosted my guild mates, if they asked me. Problem, is that i just wanted a smoth run when i was playing with my shammy, and i always ended getting grouped with low geared players, the result was very unpleasent, as i even had to back-up heal both the tank and the healer, besides i normally did the best DPS of the group, obviously i got annoyed with it, and i openned a ticket, just to been told everything was alright. Same exact thing in Cata, my shammy always ended grouped with low geared players. Never had that problem with my warrior main.

Should people from Group 2 stop expecting help from Group 1 and instead make raid-teams with other people from Group 2 so they can progress together?

If they guildies, then its the guild job to boost them, if not, personaly i don't mind helping other people, just not always.

[Ragedaug]

No not at all. I would like to hear peoples opinions on this matter.

It's meant to very directly address an issue which often divides people. No need to beat around the bush

If it's a known issue, that you know often divides people, then you know what the opinions are. Some are for it and some are against it. By starting a thread where you are asking a question when you already know the answer instead of offering suggestions to bridge the divide is what makes it appear you are just baiting a fight.

[fatgunn]

I think oneshot groups are fine EXCEPT for the first week or so of a new raid. Its not unusual to see people asking for raid completion/curve achievement on a wednesday when the raid just came out the day before. I feel like if you're doing pugs asking for a "oneshot" group so early is just being kinda rude. At that point you're not really look for other pug players, you're looking for guilded player's alts.

[xenogear3]

Blizzard introduced LFR to solve this "carry" problem.
Yet, many "raiders" are still unhappy.

To Blizzard, a baddie's $15 is just as important as a raider's $15.
To raiders, they are unhappy about anything because their hard earned gear is useless in the next major patch.

[Kaver]

You've gotten several answers, it just seems like you don't like the response so you just keep repeating the question hoping for something different.

Not at all. I appreciate all the answers very much!

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If it's a known issue, that you know often divides people, then you know what the opinions are. Some are for it and some are against it. By starting a thread where you are asking a question when you already know the answer instead of offering suggestions to bridge the divide is what makes it appear you are just baiting a fight.

Not at all. I want to hear the different arguments from both sides. I might know the possible answers to the question but I don't necessarily know why they feel that way. That's the interesting part

[Biomega]

There exists no obligation between randoms, only virtue. I.e. you don't HAVE to help people, but it'd be nice if you did. That's all it is.

[Dalinos]

Not at all. I appreciate all the answers very much!

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Not at all. I want to hear the different arguments from both sides. I might know the possible answers to the question but I don't necessarily know why they feel that way. That's the interesting part

Then you must've missed my reply back in page 2. Go give that a read, cause I know for a fact I wasn't the only one on my server who acted that way.

[Nefarious Tea]

I agree very much with this if it's people from your guild or people you play with often.

But if it's a complete stranger that you will never see again, then it's hard to be motivated to help them.

No it’s not. We’re a hyper social species. HELPING should be the default state; those who do not help are the abberation

[Dalinos]

There exists no obligation between randoms, only virtue. I.e. you don't HAVE to help people, but it'd be nice if you did. That's all it is.

Basicly this. You don't do it cause you have to, you do it cause you feel like it. If we still had proper servers, and not all this Cross-Realm-Zone/Cross-Realm-LFD bullshit we have now, server community could still be a thing. That's 1 thing I love about Classic - your actions, your words, your behaviour they all matter. Why? Because tomorrow, it's gonna be the same people you see in IF. That dude who's lvling Enchanting spamming an Enchanting macro that says "Will enchant things for free if you bring mats, I need skill-ups!" will be there for weeks on end till he hits 300 Enchanting. That Rogue offering lockbox services (for a small tip) on the AH bridge in IF will always be there, every afternoon, doing his thing.

That's the thing with closed servers. Everything you do matters. People remember when others help them, teach them, mentor them. They appreciate it. Server reputation is a thing. I don't wanna turn this into a Classic VS Retail debate, but the 1 absolute truth is that server community at least exists in Classic - in Retail, your community is your guild & your friends-list, nothing more.

[Aphrel]

If you are a true mythic raider, it is in your power (gear-wise + skill-wise) to boost people. A heroic raid can be easily cleared with 10 mythic raiders performing normally and 10 people underperforming, because the difference between a Mythic raider performing "normally" (as in, not full effort, not full consumables etc etc) is SO VAST compared to a Heroic raider performing "normally". Now ofc I'm not talking about failing on 1shot mechanics, or failing on mechanics that insta-wipe the raid, but in terms of DPS/HPS, it's super easy to carry people in Heroic. At least, it was when I used to raid semi-hardcore. If the issue is the 30 mins - 1h difference in clear times, then w/e...that's just asinine.

Do people rly have no pride anymore? No pride in their char, their skills as gamers, their effort they've poured into the game?

They sure are able to boost. Just as my body is able to carry a woman on its back to the store to shop grocerys. But why would i?

Pride is actually also a problem here. Because getting those utterly meaningless 99%logs and also be done in 1hour is probobly is a bigger draw than carrying 10ppl and do the raid in 2hours.

[Dalinos]

They sure are able to boost. Just as my body is able to carry a woman on its back to the store to shop grocerys. But why would i?

Pride is actually also a problem here. Because getting those utterly meaningless 99%logs and also be done in 1hour is probobly is a bigger draw than carrying 10ppl and do the raid in 2hours.

You see a granny coming out of the grocery store, and her old, weak arms drop the grocery bags. Why should you, an able-bodied male help her?

You see an excited 12yr old kid, setting foot in his first ever Heroic raid. Why should you, a decked-out Mythic raider help him?

If your answer is "I don't have to, so I won't", then I question the way your parents raised you, if they even raised you at all.

[cparle87]

No it’s not. We’re a hyper social species. HELPING should be the default state; those who do not help are the abberation

I was super busy with work when Nyalotha came out and missed my guild doing heroic progression. The A-team is now working their way through mythic. When I came back they were like 1-2/12 or something. I asked if the group was doing heroic farm nights and if I could come along. I got told no, they're focusing on mythic progression. I then asked if the guild was going to schedule alt nights where the mythic team's alts could lead guildies through to get their own AotC. I was told no, the mythic team isn't interested in doing any more raid nights than progression. I asked the GM, and he said if we wanted to raid it was up to us, not the raid team or guild, to organize the runs. Which I interpreted as "guild's chosen got what they wanted the rest of you can diaf."

[T-34]

I was super busy with work when Nyalotha came out and missed my guild doing heroic progression. The A-team is now working their way through mythic. When I came back they were like 1-2/12 or something. I asked if the group was doing heroic farm nights and if I could come along. I got told no, they're focusing on mythic progression. I then asked if the guild was going to schedule alt nights where the mythic team's alts could lead guildies through to get their own AotC. I was told no, the mythic team isn't interested in doing any more raid nights than progression. I asked the GM, and he said if we wanted to raid it was up to us, not the raid team or guild, to organize the runs. Which I interpreted as "guild's chosen got what they wanted the rest of you can diaf."

Before forced master loot a guild would take less progressed/worse players along on a masterloot run as the "worse" players would pay for the "boost" with their loot.
That isn't possible anymore, so now you should accept your "scrubness", leave the guild or organize a run yourself.

I was in the exact same situation as you with my guild. I joined a group of "leftovers" from our server and we are 4/12 mythic now. Nothing impressive at all. But with forced personal loot there are no incentives anymore to bring "baddies" along anymore...

[Wedny22]

you forgot about most important 3rd group - the largest :

who who didnt progress but set idiotic requirements to get carried in instance

thats where raider.io and ridiculous itlv req and AoTC came from

Yes, this Guy is 100% right. Their is a strange thing happening that people Care so much about purple pixels that they actually dont play the game, cuz they dont have the skill to get the purples, all they buy boosts. its fcking baffling to me, but oke. Do what you want ofc..but if you can't have the skill to do something, get better (practise..It helps) or accept that you can't get it. And if you dat; "i dont have the time but ma Friends boehhoehh", its a non argument and it makes no sense, if your Friends dont wanna play with you because your ilvl is shiit, they not real Friends...
Imho the boost runs ruin the pugpart of the game, i see people doing 20K dmg while 75% is Infinite Stars. Have multiple mythic kills, boosted..have AOTC and keystone master but they can't play for shiit. Rogues not using abilties, shadow priests not using void form (i dont like how it looks) etc..i dont pug anymore because of this simple reason, i user to have fun helping people get some kills, of go for a certain item i didn't seem to get (fu trinkets). Never again in this expansion.

I might sound dramatic but i had a awefull pug last night, and still no trinket from Skittra..