Was Thrall irresponsible or was the Horde too evil for itself?

[YUPPIE]

It goes without saying the Old Horde with their raping (literally; they raped Draenei), pillaging, and genocide against all life was pretty much the Locust Horde from Gears. So for a brief history lesson, that much is known.

When Thrall was put in charge, he steered it down the good path. Apart from Varian, Alliance leaders liked him even! But his approval rating wasn't that high in the Horde itself, with many Orc dissenters hating his pacifist ways and the Forsaken being upset he watches them.

So I can see why he had to leave when Deathwing rampaged. But it ALL WENT DOWNHILL AFTER. Garrosh LITERALLY turned the Horde back into the Old Horde. But Thrall doesn't do anything about him, claiming the Horde now has its own responsibilities. Only after he threatens to end the universe does Thrall intervene. When Garrosh tells Thrall he ditched him into a role he was unsuited for, he says that's not really his fault and murders him.

And now look at Sylvanas!

While Thrall has decided to take serious action at last and times are nice again, EVERY ITERATION OF THE HORDE IS CHAOTIC EVIL WITHOUT HIM. It just paints a sinister light on the Horde as a whole and I'm wondering if that's really his fault. He is pretty much all that ever holds it together and it's crazy to think what the hell would happen if he died.

[Airlick]

Why not both?

[Tupolew519]

Well. yes. it was. put not quite. It was mainly becouse of aggra. she was the main reason he left his people.

[vilememory]

garrosh didn't even want to be warchief thrall just stuck him with the job along with his notion of we must pay eternal reparations for what we did. And then he refused to admit that he made a mistake even though all the other racial leader said we don't want him. Point being thrall f***** up and I'm on my phone so potato grammar

[Manariel]

It mostly boils down to the fact that neither Blizzard nor the vocal Horde players ever managed to pin down what the Horde is. Is it the WCII/Forsaken army of mostly evil dudes but with some satirical/funny elements or is it the Warcraft III "Honorable Savages" (an already pretty loaded term, really) ?

Their inability to decide and reconcile the two halves (which is in fact impossible) has led the Horde to its current situation.

Funnily enough, the reverse problem put the Alliance in a similar problematic situation : they know too well what they think the Alliance and anything which doesn't fit their very narrow viewpoint is either cast away or immediately put in a bad light (case in point, Tyrande being clearly depicted as wrong to oppose Anduin's inconditional peace with the Horde).

[Bootynuzzler]

It goes without saying the Old Horde with their raping (literally; they raped Draenei) ...

Do you have a source for this? The only instance of rape I've ever read was when Gul'dan ordered an Orc to impregnate a Draenei, which resulted in the birth of Garona Halforcen.

Also I think Baine Bloodhoof would make an excellent leader of the Horde, and it kind of seems like that's the direction they're going, just without the title of "Warchief". He is an excellent diplomat and is a strong force for moderation, calm wisdom, and unity within the Horde, especially in their dealings with the Alliance.

[Lupinemancer]

Both actually.

[Dellis0991]

Thrall was irresponsible, he had to know deep in his heart that Garrosh wasn't to ready to lead the Horde. I'm guessing he must've though giving Garrosh leadership of the Horde would've broaden his views about the world. Funny because I like Cata Garrosh I was hoping he went the way of Varian seeing that they was both hotheads....too bad only Varian managed to wise up and cool his head. Blizz needs to stop turning leaders into villains, it really sucks to see some of the people you root for become a bunch murdery assholes.

[Dalheim]

Thrall was irresponsible, he had to know deep in his heart that Garrosh wasn't to ready to lead the Horde. I'm guessing he must've though giving Garrosh leadership of the Horde would've broaden his views about the world. Funny because I like Cata Garrosh I was hoping he went the way of Varian seeing that they was both hotheads....too bad only Varian managed to wise up and cool his head. Blizz needs to stop turning leaders into villains, it really sucks to see some of the people you root for become a bunch murdery assholes.

This is exactly it.

[YUPPIE]

Do you have a source for this? The only instance of rape I've ever read was when Gul'dan ordered an Orc to impregnate a Draenei, which resulted in the birth of Garona Halforcen.

uhm, that's still fucking prisoner of war abuse and rape, the former of which Gul'dan did in spades for more than just breeding races together (doing horrific genocidal rituals to fuel his evil magic for instance).

Seriously, the Old Horde committed so many atrocities against the Draenei. How the fuck did they ever forgive them

[Super Dickmann]

In-story Thrall got off to a good start but built it on a foundation of quick sand by putting the orcs in a desert deliberately to teach them a lesson about green guilt. From that point on if you oppose that policy you can point out how he essentially had the main race of the Horde be excessively burdened caring for the others until things boiled over around Wrath, leading to the broad popularity of war, while his outreach was ultimately pointless since war was still declared by the Alliance and even if it wasn't, his chosen successor would have declared it anyway as it was the surest way to keep his people from collapse. What that view and the view that Thrall was a good sort but he made an error in choosing a successor have in common is that he was fairly loose internally, leaving the Forsaken to do whatever for years because he appreciated their value in realpolitik and turning a blind eye to the slavery he was so angry about when it came to Rehgar, thus leading to the situation where Varian - a former slave during his Horde, declared war after visiting the Forsaken capital. His realpolitik and his recruitment of other races made the Horde a longer lasting power, but it also wrecked any pillar of unity it might have had, ensuring wildly contradictory ideas of what the Horde should be doing and for whom and what its values actually are. Ultimately this resulted in it destroying all of its institutions and losing all identifiable cultural markers except that they're roughly against people who are against them and that they like the color red.

Out of story, Thrall was very solid in his WC3 parallel as a Moses analogy who was tangential in a story where the character work was all about Grom, but him being both entirely accepted, extremely successful and lacking any negative traits meant that he was a narrative quagmire when it comes to the longform storytelling of an MMO. Blizzard opted for the scorched earth way of resolving this by retconning flaws onto him, which made him a better character and gave the story far more dynamism, but it also continued the bad habit his introduction made in the first place of seesawing the Horde between one characterization and another, culminating with this mess.

[Saltysquidoon]

Thralls horde is a continuation of the old horde but only because Metzan wrote it that way because he thought noble savages and redemption stories were the shit. Functionally there was nothing inherently evil about the WCIII era horde (no locks, no forsaken, no Garrosh).

Sylvanas going evil and the forsaken being evil really has nothing to do with the horde in of itself, they were added because the vanilla devs wanted to play as 'badass monsters' so the lore team had to spin them being on the horde (because of wow's two faction system).

Garrosh if it was written better could have been a good allegory about 'good old days' strong man dictators but really his 'true horde' of orcs and goblins was just dumb.

[Dalheim]

uhm, that's still fucking prisoner of war abuse and rape, the former of which Gul'dan did in spades for more than just breeding races together (doing horrific genocidal rituals to fuel his evil magic for instance).

Seriously, the Old Horde committed so many atrocities against the Draenei. How the fuck did they ever forgive them

Yeah, but saying the entire Horde did this is dishonest, and Gul'dan was literally worse than the rest.

[Bootynuzzler]

uhm, that's still fucking prisoner of war abuse and rape, the former of which Gul'dan did in spades for more than just breeding races together (doing horrific genocidal rituals to fuel his evil magic for instance).

Seriously, the Old Horde committed so many atrocities against the Draenei. How the fuck did they ever forgive them

I'm not disagreeing with you??? I'm just curious if there is any material you have that tells of the Horde raping Draenei, because as I said, I only know of one isolated instance while your statement seemed a bit more.. broad.

And iirc it was the Fel Orcs prior to the creation of the Horde that caused the atrocities against the Draenei, not the Orcs of the Horde.

[Dalheim]

And iirc it was the Fel Orcs prior to the creation of the Horde that caused the atrocities against the Draenei, not the Orcs of the Horde.

Literally the same thing.

Many of the ones that joined Thrall had been part of the genocide on Draenor, Saurfang and Eitrigg included. Although, they are elders now, and most of the ones joining Garrosh were most likely younger orcs, born on Azeroth, who had never been part of it, and simply wanted to go back to the so called ''Glory Days''.

[Rozz]

Why not both?

Yes. This, I second this.

Thrall was irresponsible when it came to leadership and those he placed in positions of power.
The Horde has consistently failed to address any of its blatant wrongs because they scapegoated their ills onto individuals. To be frank, I'm not even sure if there is a logical or moral justification to preserve Forsaken as they have for so long. Orcs have the intelligence, but consistently take a left turn into barbarism. Lor'Themar consistently fails to control of his people who frankly act as though he doesn't exist. Darkspeare....eh they and Tauren are a bit lacking on characterization, so I guess they're fine. But things were never great.

[YUPPIE]

Gul'dan was literally worse than the rest.

was he, really? Only difference was the Old Horde was explicitly a mindless force under the thrall of demons while Gul'dan had ambitions past killing for the sake of it

[Ardenaso]

Cairne would've been a better Warchief

[Dalheim]

was he, really? Only difference was the Old Horde was explicitly a mindless force under the thrall of demons while Gul'dan had ambitions past killing for the sake of it

If they are under a thrall, they are clearly not thinking for themselves, and *before* that, their ancestors were telling them that the draenei were the enemy. Yes, it was Kil'jaeden lying to them, but how would they know?

The ones fully aware, and embracing the evil he's causing, will always be the worst.

[Super Dickmann]

was he, really? Only difference was the Old Horde was explicitly a mindless force under the thrall of demons while Gul'dan had ambitions past killing for the sake of it

Eh, the orcs were never mindless. The Blood Curse bound them to the Legion, but direct control was contingent on a demon being around. Most of the time they were just far more aggressive, stronger and more kill-happy. But they still had thoughts, desires and cultural taboos. The whole reason Gul'dan for example used humans for his Death Knights is that even with 99.9% of the orcs being on demon blood, the defilement of their own dead specifically would be something they'd never stand for. Sure would be nice if someone remembered this cultural taboo when writing new material.