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  1. #201
    Mythic raiders be like

    "BUT I KILL BOSSES THAT HAVE 1 EXTRA MECHANIC AND A BIT MORE DAMAGE THAN HEROIC SO I'M MORE IMPORTANT!!!"

    Even though the Mythic raiding "community" makes up 1% of the player base.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And your friends are correct. It's a game and it is stupid to turn a game into another school or work.
    Game is suppose to entertain you. Learning gazillion of stuff just to start playing isn't really what people seek in games.
    My problem with current raid mechanics is that they’re so unintuitive, so all bosses throw shit around like angry monkeys, that much is obvious, but when is it “Avoid it or else...” and when is it “Soak it or else...”?

    The amount of stuff everybody is expected to know is pretty hefty (Admitting you don’t know or it’s your first time in a particular raid is an invitation to trouble, most of the time), and many people want a more “Zone in and go”-experience, doesn’t have to be easy or “tank and spank”-simple, but being understandable without out-of-game studying would be nice.

  3. #203
    Dude it doesn’t need changed

    Listen some people go in and they want to learn and they want to get better and others don’t give a shit and you can’t make them care why change your system that works because believe it or not the system works right now if you like five times to a boss in some people still don’t understand the mechanic that’s on them if they don’t go into a boss and think maybe they should look up the dungeon journal that’s on them you can’t make them better having a score or any kind of extra crap doesn’t matter and it shouldn’t and it’s a dead end

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    My problem with current raid mechanics is that they’re so unintuitive, so all bosses throw shit around like angry monkeys, that much is obvious, but when is it “Avoid it or else...” and when is it “Soak it or else...”?

    The amount of stuff everybody is expected to know is pretty hefty (Admitting you don’t know or it’s your first time in a particular raid is an invitation to trouble, most of the time), and many people want a more “Zone in and go”-experience, doesn’t have to be easy or “tank and spank”-simple, but being understandable without out-of-game studying would be nice.
    That exists it’s called the dungeon journal you going to the Raid we open it up and it shows the boss in an overview of what you need to do it also provides a list of skills but I’ve come to find that most people simply look at it to figure out what Loot can drop

    We have everything you need in the game to win It’s just up to the player to use it in a lot of the time they don’t and they choose not to instead they choose to wait for hours saying that it is a terrible experience but that’s on them because they don’t put in the minimal effort to figure out what’s going on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dejiko View Post
    LFR as it is right now fails in both teaching players what to do during raid encounters,
    and is also a tad too difficult to simply be a "tour" of the latest raids.

    If all you wanted was to watch the latest raid, they could implement a spectator mode,
    there are also twitch channels, youtube channels so on.

    I`d like to see it redesigned with a greater emphasis on teaching players what mechanics a fight has
    and how to avoid/deal with them.
    They have the dungeon journal they have a lot of callouts some mechanics even say what needs to happen and it pops up on the screen in big letters if people still aren’t learning and that is their fault with the child burn their hand on the stove a few times fuck it why change it let people improve at their own rate if they don’t want to improve and they want to suffer and retard mode let them do it and the reason why I call it that is because that’s how a lot of the people act in their

  4. #204
    Leave lfr as it is, it serves it purpuse for the peopel whos scared to join normal/hc pugs. Better they spend resources on anything else tbh.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by the0o View Post
    Thank you for the detailed response. This kind of constructive feedback is what I was looking for.
    I agree that more work needs to be done to Proving Grounds 2: Useless Boogaloo (love that name) and Raider Bait. I can understand how raiders will be frustrated/toxic when forced to do content that is "below them". Maybe retool it so their alts gets a bonus loot drop chance or something account wide (rep?). My goal is to add more experienced players to LFR. Any thoughts on that?


    The points system would need a learning AI that can help pick on each players mistakes. My Idea would have the score threshold so low that a player would have to be damn near trolling or afk to fail it.




    Thank you for your input. This is why I still have some faith in MMOC, Its a decent place to meet players and compare and contrast ideas.
    What does adding experienced raiders to LFR groups accomplish? Because this isn't new and has been in the game before. Raiders used to do LFR to help quickly fill out tier slots and presumably still do so for powerful trinkets ect. The most famous example of it not working is probably SoO. When LFR was released everything was fine, groups were clearing it with minimal effort. And then the raiders stopped queuing because they had their tier/trinkets and LFR groups started stranding at any boss that required the least bit of tactics. Like General Nazgrim and the complicated tactic of sometimes not hitting the boss. No one had learned jack shit and as soon as there wasn't raiders around the spam endless "Don't his the boss" it completely broke down.

    Many of these people have no interest at all in learning fights or improving. Incentivising raiders to constantly run LFR is just going to make them resent it more and more as they 100% have to carry every single time.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Icon View Post
    raiders/blizzard just need to get over the fact that raiding isn't that appealing and if it wasn't for blizzards insistance on tying the games story to them a lot of people wouldn't care about them at all.

    yeah that probably came out more salty than it should've but i've not had my coffee yet.
    There is no story in raid content. Entire story is told outside of instances all you do in raid is killing bosses thats it.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2020-05-31 at 12:51 PM.

  7. #207
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    From my experience, playersthat run LFR don't want people shoving *skill* down their throats, so just leave them be.
    If they have fun running LFR, let them be.

  8. #208
    I think it should be a BOT experience and 20-25 of the bots CAN complete the encounter without you, but constantly res you if you die and give you dialogue "no hero you should avoid X ability this is how you can improve"
    and give borderline ANNOYING suggestions constantly if you keep failing so people can improve and afkers get annoyed.. with dialogue you can't mute or something, boots you if you don't move or do something required after dying 3 times to something simple "Hero, move to this spot that's flashing to prove you aren't afk!"

    That way 15-20 people can do LFR still get the gear.. fights will be done but MUCH slower if people don't help etc.. extra healers will focus on resing with an incombat res and keep people engaged in combat.
    Make sure if you still play your voice is heard if it matters to you, Mine wasn't.
    https://simplearmory.com/#/us/aman't...ectable/mounts
    BFA is another failure on Blizzard for leaving out information yet again despite promising communication with players while Azerite armor is an unfun system forced onto us to keep us grinding.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    There is no story in raid content. Entire story is told outside of instances all you do in raid is killing bosses thats it.
    You finish up the storylines started in questing by fighting the bad guys in raids, how is that not story?

    Ny'alotha is what all the 8.3 content leads up to, taking the fight to N'zoth, there may not be much exposition in there, and the cinematic was up on YouTube within minutes, but it is the capstone event of the entire patch. (The sole lore-reason of the cloak-grind is to be able to fight N'zoth)

    You might have had a point back in Vanilla, where the raids were just... there, and quite unrelated to the world in general, but from BC on in, the characters behind most of the stuff we encountered while questing were inside raids.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    There is no story in raid content. Entire story is told outside of instances all you do in raid is killing bosses thats it.
    N'zoth being released in Eternal Palace raid.
    The sword in Azeroth shown in Argus raid.
    the way to Argus opening in Tomb of Sargeras raid.
    AU Gul'dan being sent to our Azeroth to set up Legion expansion in Hellfire Citadel raid.
    The end of Garrosh inside SoO
    ect ect
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    N'zoth being released in Eternal Palace raid.
    The sword in Azeroth shown in Argus raid.
    the way to Argus opening in Tomb of Sargeras raid.
    AU Gul'dan being sent to our Azeroth to set up Legion expansion in Hellfire Citadel raid.
    The end of Garrosh inside SoO
    ect ect
    All those are cinematics what you can watch on youtube. There is no gameplay involved which means there is no diference watching them on youtube or in raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    You finish up the storylines started in questing by fighting the bad guys in raids, how is that not story?

    Ny'alotha is what all the 8.3 content leads up to, taking the fight to N'zoth, there may not be much exposition in there, and the cinematic was up on YouTube within minutes, but it is the capstone event of the entire patch. (The sole lore-reason of the cloak-grind is to be able to fight N'zoth)

    You might have had a point back in Vanilla, where the raids were just... there, and quite unrelated to the world in general, but from BC on in, the characters behind most of the stuff we encountered while questing were inside raids.
    Yes but ennocunters do no push any story, there is no narrtive or lore elemets during boss fight outside of few random taunts from boss .

  12. #212
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    I think people who have a genuine interest in raiding quickly become aware of how easy normal is and progress out of LFR within a few weeks. The people who do LFR have no real interest in raiding and just want to finish the quest, or they use it to farm echoes if they don't do m+. Normal is much better for learning mechanics and how raid groups communicate. I think Blizz should nerf LFR a little bit more and let people level 60-120 using it.

  13. #213
    In MoP, my guildemates (we did heroic/mythic) and me too liked to run lfr because they could practice (before flex raid), their (our) OP gear made it fun to just roflstomp stuff. (Remember tanks dps on Iron Juggernaut? That was crazy) I think mop's LFR difficulty was fine. It's like nowadays normal I suppose? I used it to gear alts. Drop rate was ok effort/yield wise, legendary cloak stuff dropped there. It was fine.
    In WoD, I kinda remember not getting too much loot anymore (I guess "tourist mode" means "please don't expect gear here for this amount of effort" as well ) and in Legion even less (LFR for transmog purposes), and it was pointless even, when world quests gave equal or better. That is when I stopped doing or caring for LFR altogether.
    I don't even know what is in LFR nowadays. I should check.
    In any case, LFR raiders don't neccessarily want to get better, and it's fine for LFR. People who join just to be toxic... are just toxic, no matter the setting probably.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    All those are cinematics what you can watch on youtube. There is no gameplay involved which means there is no diference watching them on youtube or in raid.

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    Yes but ennocunters do no push any story, there is no narrtive or lore elemets during boss fight outside of few random taunts from boss .
    By that logic you don't need to play WoW at all because you can see everything about the story somewhere on the internet.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    All those are cinematics what you can watch on youtube. There is no gameplay involved which means there is no diference watching them on youtube or in raid.

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    Yes but ennocunters do no push any story, there is no narrtive or lore elemets during boss fight outside of few random taunts from boss .
    True, there may not be much exposition, but it’s still the end of the storylines, the final reckoning, if you will, i’d be fine with it if that was moved outside of raids, like Garrosh’s death, but Blizz cling to the “It has to be in a raid to count”-idea.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    True, there may not be much exposition, but it’s still the end of the storylines, the final reckoning, if you will, i’d be fine with it if that was moved outside of raids, like Garrosh’s death, but Blizz cling to the “It has to be in a raid to count”-idea.
    But then imagine N'zoth -as hard as it is to imagine it be even worse as it is - to be a quest end mob that you solo. Euw. :/

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    But then imagine N'zoth -as hard as it is to imagine it be even worse as it is - to be a quest end mob that you solo. Euw. :/
    True, that’s why they made the big bads raidbosses, to make it more epic to fight them (Despite N’zoth’s cinematic being a solo one again), it’s something they can’t just change on a whim, but i can dream, can’t i?

    Not as if all that many raiders give a toss about the story, especially after the first few runs.

  18. #218
    The problem is lfr is a bunch of players thrown together who will never work together or coordinate.

    In order to teach players then the content has to be hard enough for the raid to wipe. But as soon as the raid wipes player leave and become toxic. Then if the content is easy enough to not wipe the raid the mechanics And dps don’t matter.

    If u just put different warnings telling the player what to do then they won’t learn the fight, they will just follow the pop ups without actually understanding y they have to do them.

    If u had incentives for raiders to do lfr, ur basically forcing them to carry none raiders. And they still won’t learn, ur just forcing raiders to do content they don’t enjoy.

    Only real way I c to force players to learn is through guild raids or pugs willing to Take the time to teach the player.

    Or some kind of single players content that requires them to do the mechanics without major handholding to clear it.

    That’s y I feel like lfr will never be more than a tourist mode designed to shove a bunch of players into a raid to c the content and should be removed.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    And thats kinda problem isnt it? Give playerbase easy acess to raiding content completly removed all desire too do raiding content and even to extend to see content becouse process of experiencing content trought LFR simply isnt fun. It become chore. Instead of being potencialy excited to stand infront of Lady Vash or Grull people now go trought this slog just to finish wow content than quit game for rest of tier.

    Also since content become more and more acessible in order to try retain players becouse you know things like LFR and LFG actualy decrese players retantion and play time Blizzard was forced to create new ways to progress our characters like essences, ap grinds and artifacts. Those systems exist becouse content itself could no longer retain players becouse game become too acessible.
    That is a gross misunderstanding of the situation. They spent the first 3 expansions for WoW trying to get people into raiding and failed miserably. The only time they were remotely successful before LFR was when the content was completely undertuned (Naxx/Sarth/Malygos) and in that scenario people who were decent at raiding had no content to actually raid. Prior to LFR the lion's share of resources went into developing a new raid that only a small portion of players would actually see. LFR opened that up to the masses and then raids got better. We haven't had a completely trash throwaway tier like ToC / Firelands (Firelands being an island you could see the entirety of from the entrance with mostly reused assets and the bare minimum possible effort) since they added LFR and raiding has only gotten better and better since that point. LFR was good for those of us that don't do LFR. It's a net positive for the game. GC's regret was HOW they implemented LFR (it was initially a mess) not the feature itself.

    The game is a decade and a half old. Player retention between content patches is going to be low. Do you honestly believe that pre-LFR people who weren't raiding (the LFR crowd) were sticking around between content patches to do absolutely nothing at all, but suddenly when they got content to do they started subbing less? Bizarre.
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  20. #220
    I used to raid, but I don't enjoy it much anymore. So I do LFR when I need to complete a quest chain or something. At a minimum I read the Adventure Guide on how to clear the bosses. Currently need to clear Nzoth, and I have watched a few videos on it and read the Guide and Wowhead, so yes I do make an effort to understand the fight. Once I clear it on one toon, I am unsure if I will do so on my alts.

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