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  1. #241
    The Score System is dumb beyond compare since it'll only be used to be played around or fuck with other players.
    How many more decades do guys like the OP need to play this game to finally realize it?

  2. #242
    Here's the thing with LFR. Its playerbase don't want to get better. That's not how they enjoy videogames. They are the guys who play on easy. They want to relax, hit a few buttons, and see a boss die. They aren't playing the game for the challenge. That's fine, they get to enjoy the content the way they want to, that's shouldn't stop you enjoying the raid at whatever level you prefer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada

  3. #243
    I only do LFR to see the end of the stories (sort of like how zone quest lines used to end in a dungeon back in Classic). After I do that, the chances of me going back the second week are minuscule, as the content has nothing of value to offer even to non-raiders (and is also extremely, extremely boring).

    I think the reason they haven't replaced LFR with single player scenarios is that removing/nerfing mechanics from the normal mode takes a lesser amount of work. LFR is a relic from a time before such things as instanced single player content became acceptable.

    I support the idea of proving grounds as a means of increasing the players' skill, but in order to be successful they would have to provide adequate rewards for completion - not only some achievement that nobody cares about, but perhaps interesting cosmetic rewards. The latter type of rewards are ideal because they don't impact gear progression for competitive players and are, simultaneously, very popular with casual players. In this regard, we have similar features that are already implemented (e.g. the tower challenge in Legion, the nightmare challenges in BFA) and that could serve as a basis for further iteration.

    If they replace LFR with features such as the ones described above I sincerely doubt that anyone will complain. Does anyone actually enjoy LFR for the content itself?

  4. #244
    I definitely agree that LFR could be a lot better and instead of keeping bad players bad it could help improve and teach them things. I also like some of your ideas, I think honestly the biggest hurdle is the players running LFR. Do they want to get better and see the real content or are they actually happy where they are?

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    I remember. Also i remember people were whining at blizzard because they weren't able to finish silver difficulty which was so trivial you could do it in different spec.
    TBF proving grounds was really shitty content. Scaling people down in itself ruined it for a lot of specs, while other specs literally rolled their faces on the keyboard and succeeded. The whole point of PGs was to show off and make your own life as inconvenient and annoying as possible and come out on top. If it was really a teaching tool, I don't think people would have complained this much.
    Last edited by Lei; 2020-06-02 at 06:06 PM.

  6. #246
    What I dont understand is why do you want to persuade LFR players to do “real” raiding.
    Cant you just let them be happy with LFR?
    You know, many people dont want to be better, they just do LFR to relax, to kil some spare time, to just see the story, get some tmog etc. If it is false statement, raiding participation would increase since Cata, not decline like it is happening.
    There is nothing in the world what can empower me to raid, like any mode, not even LFR. Raiding is commitment and many dont want any of it. Same with being in the guild.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    I don't find that ever working for me. If there's no consequence to failing, chances are I won't even notice it until I get to a key where it becomes dangerous. By then, it's too late.
    You'll notice if you look for it. If the boss does Avoidable AoE that deals 20% damage, chances are it'll kill you outright on high Tyrannical weeks. I can recommend getting Weak Aura and making a bar that shows your health. If it drops then you've fucked up and something happened you need to be aware of.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Here's the thing with LFR. Its playerbase don't want to get better. That's not how they enjoy videogames. They are the guys who play on easy. They want to relax, hit a few buttons, and see a boss die. They aren't playing the game for the challenge. That's fine, they get to enjoy the content the way they want to, that's shouldn't stop you enjoying the raid at whatever level you prefer.
    Ans thats where you are wrong. Challenge is horible absolutly terrible way how to motivate player to do content. Challenge should never be used as motivation. Challenge is way how to make content fun but you should never use it as goal. Main motivation for players is to experience content. But if procress of experiencing content is boring (lfr) than you have really big problem. People will go into LFR get bores while doing it, achieve their goal which is experience content and quit playing. LFR do not retain players it makes them quit faster. Thats why Blizzard created lot of new adictive systems to keep those players playing. If its good or not thats upto you. Back in old days game was less acessible and that desire to see content was more than enough to keep players playing. And thats why value of unacessible content is always higher.

    Acessability and coviniece do not make game better. They never make game better and never will.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Ans thats where you are wrong. Challenge is horible absolutly terrible way how to motivate player to do content. Challenge should never be used as motivation. Challenge is way how to make content fun but you should never use it as goal. Main motivation for players is to experience content. But if procress of experiencing content is boring (lfr) than you have really big problem. People will go into LFR get bores while doing it, achieve their goal which is experience content and quit playing. LFR do not retain players it makes them quit faster. Thats why Blizzard created lot of new adictive systems to keep those players playing. If its good or not thats upto you. Back in old days game was less acessible and that desire to see content was more than enough to keep players playing. And thats why value of unacessible content is always higher.

    Acessability and coviniece do not make game better. They never make game better and never will.
    Pretty bold statement. And based on what experience is this statement made on? You are making a lot of claims. Claims that needs support.

    The video game industry is pretty big right now. Was not always like this. Was this growth based on challenging, inaccessible content or was it based on accessibility?

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Ans thats where you are wrong. Challenge is horible absolutly terrible way how to motivate player to do content. Challenge should never be used as motivation. Challenge is way how to make content fun but you should never use it as goal. Main motivation for players is to experience content. But if procress of experiencing content is boring (lfr) than you have really big problem. People will go into LFR get bores while doing it, achieve their goal which is experience content and quit playing. LFR do not retain players it makes them quit faster. Thats why Blizzard created lot of new adictive systems to keep those players playing. If its good or not thats upto you. Back in old days game was less acessible and that desire to see content was more than enough to keep players playing. And thats why value of unacessible content is always higher.

    Acessability and coviniece do not make game better. They never make game better and never will.
    Bit of a strange take on it. I don't fully disagree with this but I don't agree with it either.

    LFR is definitely a method of experiencing content, but if the challenge of the content is considered boring then you already have other options of gameplay. Even casual players have the option to not raid at all, and I knew many friends who only played WoW in a casual non-raiding way. All they did was level alts slowly or do achievements or play PVP, and didn't care about the raiding/end-game progress.

    LFR offers accessibility and convenience, but I don't see your concluding statement being any true unless you were intending to state it as your personal opinion, that it would never make the game better for you. I can easily say that I'd never have raided in WoW if they kept it at 40-man raids that required every player to farm a set of resistance gear. TBC made raids smaller and the 10-man format opened up raids to my small guild that didn't have the players or resources for 40-man or even 25-man raiding. That is accessability. That is convenience. That made the game better for us.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-06-03 at 12:27 AM.

  11. #251
    What is "player" that all have a single hive mind motivation / preference?

    I don't get it, like I hereby declare XXXX is not a valid goal for player. I guess it makes sense since it is a "player" and that "player" only refers to the one making the comment.

  12. #252
    Dreadlord Pheraz's Avatar
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    Generally an interesting idea.

    Just my two cents

    I've became a very very casual player after cata due to first university and then my job.
    But since cata I also got addicted to transmog and raising an alt army because those are the things you can do any time and log out any time without ruining anyone's else game (unlike scheduled raids in guild)
    I also quited all guilds and only have my own where only my chars and one of my wife's is in.
    So I don't know if I'm a stereotype of the casuals in wow but I wanted to point out what my motivation is to join LFR (transmog, getting a little raiding vibe)

    Now comes the weird part... Since BFA the raid looks are complete trash (for my looks) and the last tier look it's even obtainable via the corruption items from visions and black empire assaults
    I just used the LFR tool three or four times to get a look inside uldum. Will probably also look a little into nyalotha, that's it
    All the cool transmog I have came from warfronts quests (elite warfront sets). So why should I join LFR at all?
    When I need a little ilvl for clearing old legion raids for transmogs I use heroic warfronts, emmisary loot and WQs

    Even if you might be disgusted by the amount of casualty I just wanted to share it to give you guys insights on how casuals view the game. I enjoy also questing, immersion (also the add-on) and exploration
    Vynd | Zorn | Pheraz | Qil | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle | Farodin - My personal Kaldorei army <3

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Ans thats where you are wrong. Challenge is horible absolutly terrible way how to motivate player to do content. Challenge should never be used as motivation. Challenge is way how to make content fun but you should never use it as goal. Main motivation for players is to experience content. But if procress of experiencing content is boring (lfr) than you have really big problem. People will go into LFR get bores while doing it, achieve their goal which is experience content and quit playing. LFR do not retain players it makes them quit faster. Thats why Blizzard created lot of new adictive systems to keep those players playing. If its good or not thats upto you. Back in old days game was less acessible and that desire to see content was more than enough to keep players playing. And thats why value of unacessible content is always higher.

    Acessability and coviniece do not make game better. They never make game better and never will.
    So your saying challenge is bad for the game and accessibility is bad for the game?

  14. #254
    Immortal Kathranis's Avatar
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    My general take on LFR:

    • It should be challenging, but not so challenging that a lack of coordination or skill will completely halt progress.
    • It should heavily telegraph the mechanics of the fight and explain clearly what mistakes a player makes when they make them, and mistakes should not be so punishing that they result in an instant kill the first time they mess up.
    • Mechanics that do require coordination should be partially automated; if you're placed in a group that needs to focus on killing adds or go through a portal, it should automatically sort you and pop up a message that explains your job.

    Something like that. Basically hold players' hands, tell them what they need to do, but make them push the buttons themselves and tell them what they did wrong if they did do something wrong.

  15. #255
    I would like to see the proving grounds requirement once you get the minimum item level. That way, you have to know what your doing with your class.

    I don't see a system as complex as your point system ever being attempted.

    I'm not sure if high level raiders would want "to be forced to do LFR." If there is an advantage which can be gained, people will "have to get it" to be competitive. Therefore, it becomes required. I get the "no one is forcing you to do it." Well....actually people have expectations that you'll do everything necessary to get better.

    There was a time when I could schedule off two, three hour blocks of time each week. That simply is not possible now. Therefore, LFR is the only way I would ever even SEE the bosses. Because I don't have the time i used to have, i might not know my class as well as I should. I probably will not have read recent patch notes. Or, even have add Ons installed. Those are the facts behind trying to play the game with only a few hours a week available

    The player base needs to ask themselves the question. Do we want to grief players like me for not being good enough? And then drive those players from the game? Or maybe people can actually understand that not everyone can play the game very much.

    The people who are the problem are those who come into lfr and essentially go AFK. You can't have noobs and AFKers together to really succeed. And, you can't have sone guy with "good gear" come in and then taunt those who maybe do not have the best dps but aren't afk.

  16. #256
    The Patient Shadowater's Avatar
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    I used to be LFRaider until 8.2 when I tried Normal and heroic raiding and kicked ass. After that I stopped doing LFR because I noticed how chaotic it was.
    I think what LFR needs is a "raid leader" function.
    Example:
    Wrathion could have guided people through Ny'alotha fights. When the boss uses an ability he would just call it out and say what needs to be done, and have the abilities be slower so there is more time for people to listen and then react. LFRaiders rarely look up abilities so they have no idea what to do and just think the healers will take care of it.
    To have something that tells you what is happening while the fight is going on will be helpful, thats why normal and heroic raids have raid leaders. I just dont think its a Raiders role to take on and try to lead LFRaiders.
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