Got booted. Am I the bad guy?

[Lubefist]

Or get kicked? Who the fuck cares about getting kicked in 2020, there are no raid lockouts anymore.

How is that even part of the fucking point if there's a lockout or not? Still a cunt move.

[dzd]

How is that even part of the fucking point if there's a lockout or not? Still a cunt move.

Why? Getting kicked doesn't matter at all. If people don't feel like playing with you then they can just kick you and you can go to another group.

[kamuimac]

Or get kicked? Who the fuck cares about getting kicked in 2020, there are no raid lockouts anymore.

especially if he is 475 ^^ it will be instant invite

[Dalinos]

The delusion seems to be strong in you. It doesn't matter what would have happened with the item with master looter. At all.

He got an item from which he needed something through a system that grants items on a close to constant basis, and would in reality have lost a piece of loot / residuum had he given it away. He had every right to keep it, both in "spirit", "Letter" and by loot rules of the raid.

The only thing that really surprise me in all of it is that despite the majority of the raid wanted OP to hand over the item, knowing full well why he didn't want to, not a single one offered to give him a replacement epic for his residuum. People are greedy.

Then it's obviously a matter of miscommunication then. OP did not make it clear what he was there for. I don't think anyone would have an issue giving him spare pieces of un-needed loot so he can Scrap them, if he was willing to give away the loot that he got instead. Since OP was there for Residum, it doesn't matter WHAT item he scraps, as long as he scraps AN azerite item. Seems like all of this could've been solved, on the spot, with better communication.

[Dapower]

you were not selfish, they were children

[Kaykay]

The situation can be summed up as: Carried bad hunter throws a fit when loot isn't funneled to him. Douchebag RL kicks player for not passing upgrades to his friends.

In pugs, unless specifically stated before the run, you have zero obligation to pass minor upgrades to someone who would get a major upgrade, especially when said person isn't contributing to the success of the raid. Would it have been nice to pass the hat to him? yes, but when you aren't contributing to the raid except being a warm body, you can only expect scraps. And thats moreso true in a pug where nobody has any incentive to help out eachother, because they will never see eachother again.

In a guild group/among friends, sure you would be in the wrong, but pugs are pugs.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Every time you have the option to help your fellow man without putting yourself at a major disadvantage, and you don't take it, you're the bad guy.

No, you're not. You're not obligated to give away something as soon as someone threatens you for it. You're especially not obligated to reward people for being selfish assholes. The hunter went from asking to demanding, without even attempting to negotiate or find some sort of compromise. Rewarding the bad behavior from the hunter would've been the worst thing to do in this scenario.

[Zephire]

Debates like this are why personal loot exists. It's your loot, you earned it, you get to choose what to do with it. Would it have been nice to give it to the hunter? Sure. But ultimately it's your gear. You don't have any responsibility to give it to him.
I also don't entirely blame the guy for kicking you though. He was doing the raid to try to gear his friend, and you stood in the way of that when you could have helped. I can see why he'd want people who are more receptive to his preferred way of doing things.
Nobody's entirely in the wrong here.

I agree on the personal loot thing.

The kick, though, I don't know. Sure, if you're invited to a group which states that those invited is expected to trade loot if they can then sure, you can't blame the leader for kicking. However, if you just join a group where no one tell you the above then you shouldn't be kicked.

OP:
Do whatever you want with your loot. They should not expect you to trade anything if you havn't agreed on it beforehand, and also don't, yourself, expect people to trade if they don't want to^^

[LanToaster]

What you were getting: 1/24 of a chance at an upgrade. What he was getting: a good upgrade. So obviously, it’s pretty selfish.

You don’t owe him anything but being a little bit generous is important in life. It’s a good habit to be in because you never know when it will be repaid.

And if hes supposed to give the loot he wants/needs away, why the fuck is he supposed to help them in the raid at all?
While its a form of "Selfishness" to keep the Item you want, its the pinnacle of Selfishness to demand Loot from others.

To me it’s a completely reasonable response. It’s hard to argue that you’re going to keep your loot and fuck everyone else while simultaneously arguing that the raid leader is obligated to keep you, a stranger, in his raid.

Well, thats a matter of Opinion as its not defined anywhere. But I see a raid group as a form of Contract, as long as everybody is doing their Job, and not break any predefined rules (or Common sense rules like "Dont be an Asshole") they can stay.

Its petty and idiotic to Kick people from the raid for Personal Reasons. No matter if they are Friends, Guildmates or Strangers.
In my Groups every Stranger has the same Rights as any Comunity/Guildmember.

By taking that piece you’re saying that you care very little about him - why should he care about the harm he causes you by kicking?

By demanding the loot from your RaidMembers you clearly show that you dont care about your RaidMembers at all.

I really really hate People begging for Loot. Usually (depending on my Mood and overall Performance of the Raid) if someone immediatly after I loot something whispers me, I dont give it away, Period, or look at someone who can use it and trade it directly.

In my Raids, the rule is: "Your Loot is your own", I just encourage to fairly roll for stuff if someone decides he wants to share his Loot.
If I notice this "Loot Begging", I clarify that I personally dont like it, and usually everything that is going to be given away, will be rolled on.

Fun Fact: Several People missed Rolling for the Loot they were Begging for.

- - - Updated - - -

Then it's obviously a matter of miscommunication then. OP did not make it clear what he was there for. I don't think anyone would have an issue giving him spare pieces of un-needed loot so he can Scrap them, if he was willing to give away the loot that he got instead. Since OP was there for Residum, it doesn't matter WHAT item he scraps, as long as he scraps AN azerite item. Seems like all of this could've been solved, on the spot, with better communication.

OP did tell them that he wants the Titan Residuum from the Item, and was laughed at.

[Azerate]

Imagine you have to loot your shit in secret and come up with excuses if someone spies you though addons.

Yeah, I think Blizzard should make it so it's impossible to see what others have looted in the raid. They made all loot personal, but it seems the extortion doesn't stop there and they need to go a step further.

[Rotted]

What do you disagree with, I'm with the OP, the pally also agreed that he could keep the loot.

Thats he's selfish in any way. If he had kept it for x mog I'd then say yes he was but its still his loot. But given hes planning to use it, nah not at all

[Demetrion]

Your loot, you can do whatever you want with it. Brush it off, queue for next group and be done with it.

[Vampyrr]

Eh I would just say either Transmog or offset if pushed on it. It's a pug no one is guaranteed jack

[Kaver]

How is it selfish? Asking for other peoples stuff is selfish. You do understand that this happened in a PuG?

In case you really aren't lying by saying that, ask yourself this. Is it worse if players keep their own loot or raid leaders ninjaing it for themselves or their friends?

It is a little bit selfish imo, but being it little bit selfish is not bad. People are allowed to do stuff for them themselves. I'm selfish all the time and I'm allowed to be. People are always putting a negative spin to being selfish but it just mean you care about yourself and that is not bad. Being selfish is not always bad!

And I said earlier that I think the hunter and raid leader are much worse. The hunter drops the F-word right away. He is probably a spoiled little kid. This is what I wrote earlier:

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. You are 100 % NOT wrong. It is your loot and you can do whatever you want with it. Of course it would be nice of you to give it to the hunter, but this scenario is also Blizzards fault for making the reward system this way. Usually I also keep most of my Azerite gear to scrap when I'm trying to get a specific piece from the vendor. The way the hunter deals with the situation is also ridiculous. He uses the F-word straight away instead of dealing with it like a civilized person. I would just have left that group right away.

So I'm completeling siding with the OP. I still think it's a little bit selfish to keep the Azerite gear but there is nothing wrong with that. I would do it myself. I'm being selfish all the time when I play the game. Sometimes I share loot and sometimes I don't. Being selfish is not alway negative. It just means you care about yourself and there is absolutely nothing wrong with caring about yourself.

[Lubefist]

Thats he's selfish in any way. If he had kept it for x mog I'd then say yes he was but its still his loot. But given hes planning to use it, nah not at all

Why is some random more entitled to YOUR loot or make you selfish even if it would be tmog?

[Athulua]

Personal loot was invented and enforced because of this. If you set a master looter and hijack a piece of azerite just to scrap it for 200 arbitrary currency then it would be considered a dick move, as other people could be able to use this item as an actual upgrade.

But it's personal loot and you won the item. It's your item, other people are not in position to coerce you what you have to do with it. You join and get a duplicate skitra bow you already have? Whatever, you can vendor it for 130 gold if you so desire, even if there are 7 other hunters farming for it. You can give it to the highest dps hunter instead of allowing those 20k scrubs to roll for it. That's your item and you decide, not anybody else.

And why do you even care in pugs? There are so many HC pugs going on. They make drama over one item, you just leave and join another group. It's unlikely that you'll ever encounter these people again. And even less chance that you will and they will remember your name. That's modern WoW for you.

[Raelbo]

So to start things off im still fairly convinced that I am in fact not the bad guy, but considering 12 people just told me i am a dick and only 1 guy was on my side I feel like sharing my story, or ranting, you name it.

Those 12 weren't exactly unbiased given that they also probably were looking for upgrades from the raid...

But yeah, I'd side with you on this one. You had a legitimate use for the gear, and you earned it by helping them to defeat those bosses. If you had disenchanted it or vendored it, sure, that would have been a dick move, but Titan Residuum is a bit harder to come by. Or if it was a guild situation during progression, then it would be different. This was a pug and I see zero reason why you should be obliged to sacrifice any piece of gear that helps your progress for a complete stranger.

The dick here was the entitled hunter. His needs do not trump yours and his attitude stinks. It's fine that he asks, but what follows wasn't ok. And to then have you kicked from the group also wasn't cool.

After that I would have reported the guy for language, not because I am sensitive to reading the word "fuck", but because he is a dick who was stupid enough to commit a clear rule violation that you're entitled to report him for.

[Gurg]

the only way the OP would be dead weight is if the situation is as the he suspects really a covert boost group for the hunter, meaning those not willing to fork over there loot would be counter productive to the raid leaders aim of boosting his mate, but then id argue the OP is the one ebing exploited by giving a boost to those guys without any recompense.

I got that impression, yes.
Out of 14 people in the raid (12 of them which told OP that hes a douche, 1 pala that said hes ok with OP keeping loot as transmog and OP him self) Hunter is no#10 on DPS meter.
Taken in consideration usual 2-3-9 comp that puts Hunter below one of the tanks.
Even if its 2-2-10, which is uncommon, that would put hunter as last DPS.
If he played BM (which most hunters do) even without TD or IS hes DPS is a bit low for a HC run taken in consideration what decently geared BM hunter can do.
This is further backed by the fact that he was in PUG with raid leader, its a high probability that RL threw together PUG to help Hunter to gear.
Hunters behavior, calling him out in /i further backs this. Hes there to get an upgrade and random dude that got his upgrade has decided to keep it. Hunter got salty and acted on it.

This is kinda common behavior for PUGs these days when people are helping their guildies/friends to gear ALTs.
Not just in Raids, but Mythic Dungeons too.
How many times did you see overgeared Tank/Healer/DPS applying for +6-9 but also carrying a bit lower geared member with them.
Tho due to nature of how loot works in M+ this issue is less likely to happen.
Raid leader starts a raid with lowbie and people swarm the queue in the hopes that they will get that extra piece that they need, essence mats or currency completely ignoring fact that they carry one lowbie.
My main usually only does guild runs, while with ALTs that can pull their weight i tend to drop into PUGs with few guildies that are on characters with same armor proficiency so we can distribute loot among our selfs but avoid all the fuss with organizing raid on our own.

As OP said, he joined PUG in hopes to get extra few pieces for Titanium trashing, my guess is that he didnt quite cared if he carries lowbie or not, hes there just for a shot for extra Titanium.

So, my comment was based on that though line. I might be wrong, as i said, this topic is kinda tricky to reply to right.
On the one side you have "fair" enforced personal loot system - what you get is yours to do what you want with.
Raid leaders also can do with their raid what they want to, they organized it, purpose is meaningless, its their raid so they can enforce "justice" how they see fit.

BUT, on other side you have moral dilemma backed by personal opinion which varies from person to person therefore theres no "correct answer".

Honestly, depending on my mood and how smooth did the raid go up to the point in question i would either just move on and let the OP keep the loot, or boot him if things were messy and im in a bad mood simply to move on with the raid.

Contradictory, i know, but again, perfectly normal behavior and probably a way how would majority of people process this.

[Shango]

Oh how quickly people forget how things were. Back in the day, without this Personal Loot shit, the BOSS dropped items, and the items were on the BOSS. Meaning, that with the loot system the game had for over 85% of its lifetime (everything bar Legion/BFA), OP would not have even been allowed to roll, since rolling for what is equivalent to Disenchanting (scrapping) was a Greed roll. And he wouldn't have had an issue.

Everyone who's saying "He was in his right to keep it", "fuck the other guy for asking for OP's loot" either have the memory of a gold fish or are delusional in thinking that a GREED roll would supercede a NEED roll in the old loot system.

- - - Updated - - -

Without personal loot he wouldn't have even been allowed to roll. He was wearing a 475 BIS item and a 460 non-BIS item dropped. People would've laughed in his face if he had decided to roll "Need" with the reasoning being "some Residum".

Even though you mention later on that this is not a theoretical scenario because it is going on in Classic right now, i dont play classic. If rules would have never changed i agree with you, i most certainly would not have been able to roll on said loot because it absolutely is to be considered a greed roll. But rules did change, which is exactly the reason i ended up raiding with those people, if nothing had ever changed there would be no point for me to join a hc raid because i would only be there to benefit others.

To summarize what i learned from this thread, apparently there are people that think that i should pretty much no longer be allowed to join hc pug raids, as i do outgear them and there is no valid upgrade for me in it. Or if i actually do join im supposed to surrender every piece of loot that accidently drops for me.

This is absurd to me, initially i was kinda unsure of what i was suppsoed to do, but that is no longer the case. I allready mentioned a few pages earlier that ill probably inform future raid leaders if i ever intended to join for minor loot reasons again (transmog/residium), to avoid conflcit going forward. I dont like that mailbox suggestion though, as i am fine with giving away most of the loot that drops for me. However there was another very decent suggestion of keeping the azerite piece for now to trade it for another later on if anything else happened, which would have probably worked out.

[Raelbo]

I also don't entirely blame the guy for kicking you though. He was doing the raid to try to gear his friend, and you stood in the way of that when you could have helped. I can see why he'd want people who are more receptive to his preferred way of doing things.
Nobody's entirely in the wrong here.

Except it's not true that this guy stood in the way of anything. Heroic raid are flex, and by the looks of things they were, at most, 15 in the group. Kicking him did nothing to improve the chances of loot for the hunter, and, due to the fact that the OP was one of the stronger dps, it's likely that he was actually contributing to the raid success and, by extension, the odds of mr hunter getting any loot at all.

Kicking him was just plain spiteful and served zero useful function for the raid.