Was I doing it wrong? (White Mage)

[agentsi]

And, what is the purpose and/or relevance of that question?



Again, you're assuming that because the players are having to do it that way, that it must be the intended way, or that the encounters must be tuned for it because the players aren't able to clear it without it. Are we 100% certain that the players trying to clear it early are doing everything right? Doing all mechanics flawlessly and executing their rotations optimally? Wearing the intended minimum item level of gear to pull the numbers intended for the fight? Not saying developers are usually in touch with their game, but in this case I think Yoshi-P and their crew are pretty on point when it comes to tuning the encounters in this game. Rarely does new patch content release and require any significant tuning (or any at all) or adjustments afterward, that tells me they tested it themselves in house and got the tuning right before they released it and that they know what they're talking about.

My only point is simply leaning on what Yoshi-P stated, that healer DPS is not absolutely REQUIRED to clear the content, it obviously helps and is the optimal way to go, but it being optimal is not the same as required.



There is a middle ground between super early progression and farming though, but I get your point.

Simply to see if you've experienced SE's content for yourself and are speaking from a point of experience, or if you're just someone reading forums and saying "well they said it's supposed to be this way".

[Katchii]

Simply to see if you've experienced SE's content for yourself and are speaking from a point of experience, or if you're just someone reading forums and saying "well they said it's supposed to be this way".

Figured as much. I'm done replying to you after this then.

The statement comes directly from Yoshi-P, not just "forums."

Believe what you will.

I have not cleared the content, but I have experienced it and was unable to clear it...not because of a lack of DPS, per se, but because people simply could not handle the mechanics while also fulfilling their job role. I gave up because that's not really my thing anyway and smashing my head against a wall hoping to get a PuG together good enough just isn't worth it. Kudos to those who can.

[agentsi]

Figured as much. I'm done replying to you after this then.

The statement comes directly from Yoshi-P, not just "forums."

Believe what you will.

I have not cleared the content, but I have experienced it and was unable to clear it...not because of a lack of DPS, per se, but because people simply could not handle the mechanics while also fulfilling their job role. I gave up because that's not really my thing anyway and smashing my head against a wall hoping to get a PuG together good enough just isn't worth it. Kudos to those who can.

Exactly why I asked. I appreciate your honesty. And also, I fully expected you to be a coward and stop replying after you were honest.

So you can't clear the content because you don't have the skill, yet are going to tell others how to play the game. When you yourself admit you don't even really know how. Cute.

What Yoshi said 5 years and 2 expansions ago, does not hold true now. Raids were VERY different in Alexander/Heavensward compared to how they are now. Even dungeons are different.

And to be fair, don't tell new players how to play when you aren't even sure yourself. That's a major dick move and just irresponsible to the player base. OP was asking an honest question based on how the mechanics work and what is expected of him. And you try to feed him/her some bullshit. Not cool at all.

[KrayZ33]

Savage content is mathematically not possible to clear without Tank und Healer damage taken into account by the time they are released. So if they design it like how he said they would, then they failed on pretty much all of them, if not *all* of them.

For example, you need roughly 87k DPS (I don't have the exact number at hand) to clear Garuda+Ifrit before enrage.

It's impossible for every single DPS to do 20k (r)dps each (especially in 480gear). Even if they could, they would not reach the required DPS.
Tanks can hold aggro with like 3k DPS each, still not enough to clear it.


Raids are not "very" different now either... they are pretty much exactly the same. Their mechanics didn't get a whole lot more complex like they did when you, for example, compare Vanilla/BC/WotLK with Mythic raids.
What are you refering to here?

edit: here is the required DPS for each Savage Raid doing 1 DPS less means you are not killing the boss.

E5S: 83.8k

E6S: 84k

E7S: 86.7k

E8S: 90725


Yoshi-P said 2 things btw.

In ARR, he never expected healers to deal damage in raids. In fact, he actually thought some "Turns" were impossible by the time they were released.
But when he realised what players were doing, he thought it's a cool thing and kept doing things like that.

At the same time, they put Accuracy on gear back in the day before they removed it completely.
So, you have Yoshi-P saying one thing and the encounter devs doing another.
Accuracy was useless outside of raids and only used for damage. If they never even thought about healers doing damage during encounters etc. why was there a shit-ton of accuracy on the gear for them.

[Hyral]

The statement comes directly from Yoshi-P, not just "forums."

Believe what you will.

I have not cleared the content, but I have experienced it and was unable to clear it...not because of a lack of DPS, per se, but because people simply could not handle the mechanics while also fulfilling their job role. I gave up because that's not really my thing anyway and smashing my head against a wall hoping to get a PuG together good enough just isn't worth it. Kudos to those who can.

That five year old quote is nice but their intent is irrelevant to the reality. Whether a savage encounter with every dps at optimum gear performing at their absolute peak with no mistakes whatsoever and 0 dps from the healer is possible before enrage timer I couldn't tell you, but if the reality is they can't mathematically finish the encounter than that is the reality. Yoshi can say what his intent is as much as he wants but that doesn't mean that's how it actually works. And what savage raiders are telling you right now is that his intent is not the reality. Some times that happens.

And to be fair, don't tell new players how to play when you aren't even sure yourself. That's a major dick move and just irresponsible to the player base. OP was asking an honest question based on how the mechanics work and what is expected of him. And you try to feed him/her some bullshit. Not cool at all.

Huh? OP did not ask about whether savage can be cleared with healers maximizing DPS or not, and giving that much information to a newbie healer that hasn't yet grasped the basics can be just as irresponsible. Information overload is a thing. He was doing Qitana Ravel and just learning about Holy's utility as mitigation. Someone on that level of play has no reason to be taught how to do savage yet, you don't even know if he will ever care about that content at all and statistically he probably wont. It's fine to give that information on the side, it does help a new healer to know he should try to dps on the side, but as any healer will tell a newbie; focus on your job first and only open up to dpsing once you are comfortable. Holy is a special case. Don't pretend this thinly veiled size contest you two are having has anything to do with the OP's question. (That last line is mostly teasing)

[Wrecktangle]

Exactly why I asked. I appreciate your honesty. And also, I fully expected you to be a coward and stop replying after you were honest.

So you can't clear the content because you don't have the skill, yet are going to tell others how to play the game. When you yourself admit you don't even really know how. Cute.

What Yoshi said 5 years and 2 expansions ago, does not hold true now. Raids were VERY different in Alexander/Heavensward compared to how they are now. Even dungeons are different.

And to be fair, don't tell new players how to play when you aren't even sure yourself. That's a major dick move and just irresponsible to the player base. OP was asking an honest question based on how the mechanics work and what is expected of him. And you try to feed him/her some bullshit. Not cool at all.

To discount him because he hasn't cleared would be a misstep. You can use that as evidence to further substantiate your argument, but using it to discount is disingenuous to actual discussion.

I'm not 100% sure, but i'm like 97.98% sure YoshiP has gone on record stating how they calculate rDPS requirements in savage and they 100% take healer DPS into account. He's said that. What I think he's clarified on over the years is that outside of savage/ultimate healer DPS is not calculated by any metric.

In that same discussion I remember him saying that they almost always underestimated the DPS top tier healers output and that they also indicated that they don't balance against minimum ilvl, but actually slightly above (i.e. 1-2 pieces of tome gear).

[Katchii]

Exactly why I asked. I appreciate your honesty. And also, I fully expected you to be a coward and stop replying after you were honest.

So you can't clear the content because you don't have the skill, yet are going to tell others how to play the game. When you yourself admit you don't even really know how. Cute.

What Yoshi said 5 years and 2 expansions ago, does not hold true now. Raids were VERY different in Alexander/Heavensward compared to how they are now. Even dungeons are different.

And to be fair, don't tell new players how to play when you aren't even sure yourself. That's a major dick move and just irresponsible to the player base. OP was asking an honest question based on how the mechanics work and what is expected of him. And you try to feed him/her some bullshit. Not cool at all.

No, I simply don't continue discussions with people like you, who name call and completely disregard someone's opinion based on what content they've cleared, because it's pointless and doesn't lend itself to actually having a discussion and devolves into you sending insults at me rather than having a discussion. Thank you for proving the stereotype, yet again.

And based on your experience, you know full well that dungeons are completely different than Extreme/Savage raids and trials. You trying to say I don't know how to play the game at all because I haven't cleared Savage is ridiculous. You don't have any clue what my personal skill level is, you insinuating that I haven't cleared Savage because I personally don't have skill is reaching, you're just looking to put another insult in there.

So thank you again.

- - - Updated - - -

That five year old quote is nice but their intent is irrelevant to the reality. Whether a savage encounter with every dps at optimum gear performing at their absolute peak with no mistakes whatsoever and 0 dps from the healer is possible before enrage timer I couldn't tell you, but if the reality is they can't mathematically finish the encounter than that is the reality. Yoshi can say what his intent is as much as he wants but that doesn't mean that's how it actually works. And what savage raiders are telling you right now is that his intent is not the reality. Some times that happens.

I'm not disagreeing with you, it's the reality of how things are getting cleared now and I advocate that it SHOULD be done that way because Healers CAN DPS and therefore SHOULD DPS. And no where did I ever say it was wrong, I was simply repeating what Yoshi-P said. And to my knowledge that design intent hasn't changed....which again, doesn't mean it won't or shouldn't be done.

[Nasuuna]

Anything you can blindly queue into healers don't need to dps in.

If you need a premade for it (Extreme, Savage, Ultimate), healer dps is required.

The difference between 90k dps and 113k dps is killing Ramuh before the 2nd chain lightning, and as he casts enrage.