So... thats why burst dps is bad for the game 29 fire mages HC

[Motso]

I don't really think it is an issue. We are getting towards the end of the expansion relatively speaking and the weird shit has started happening with scaling and shit. Things always gets a bit weird toward the tail end of an xpac just embrace the void.

[Athulua]

That's not the problem at all. Heroic NY is still current content and these mages are not clearing it "relatively fast", they are completely destroying it. If you compare this to someone clearing old content then you're completely crazy. Heroic NY is not obsolete old content.

At this point it is.
Heroic hellfire citadel in WOD seen even faster clears when they introduced valor point gear upgrades.

They tried making mechanics unskippable in nighthold. And see what was the result. Farm kills taking as long as progression kills, barely any time improvement there.
People just wouldn't bother farming the content and unsubscribe.

Wait until we rack up 125 corruption resist on gear and slap targeted corruptions & sockets on everything.
The content will be wrecked utterly and totally and that's what is supposed to happen when you are having full best in slot gear from a difficulty above the raid you're farming.

[Motso]

Wait until we rack up 125 corruption resist on gear and slap targeted corruptions & sockets on everything.
The content will be wrecked utterly and totally and that's what is supposed to happen when you are having full best in slot gear from a difficulty above the raid you're farming.

See this guy gets it. Lets get weird with it.

[Kaver]

At this point it is.
Heroic hellfire citadel in WOD seen even faster clears when they introduced valor point gear upgrades.

They tried making mechanics unskippable in nighthold. And see what was the result. Farm kills taking as long as progression kills, barely any time improvement there.
People just wouldn't bother farming the content and unsubscribe.

Wait until we rack up 125 corruption resist on gear and slap targeted corruptions & sockets on everything.
The content will be wrecked utterly and totally and that's what is supposed to happen when you are having full best in slot gear from a difficulty above the raid you're farming.

But right now it is not a general problem. We only see ONE spec being able to do this "Fire Mage". If this was just a case of "outgearing content" we would also see all classes in general being able to do this, but we don't. It's ONLY Fire mages.

[kaminaris]

Even with mythic progression, fire mage was more desirable than other classes.

When in doubt -> fire mage. Need burst something down? Fire mage.
Need shorter fight? -> fire mage.

If you had a choice between any other class/spec and fire mage, you took fire mage.

Hunter is good all-rounder but it's not without flaws like hunter cannot do fast switches where targets have some distance between each other like raden.

And this is not a problem with outgearing content in general.
Its a problem where you can have burst dps 5-8 times higher than your usual output.

[LordVargK]

But right now it is not a general problem. We only see ONE spec being able to do this "Fire Mage". If this was just a case of "outgearing content" we would also see all classes in general being able to do this, but we don't. It's ONLY Fire mages.

Pretty sure other classes could do this as well. Destruction warlocks come to mind. Every class with stackable cooldowns can potentially achieve the same results. It's just that nobody bothered to do this until now, because other than a few minutes of internet fame you get nothing for this kill.

Also this strategy only works for this one boss, because it has way less life than other bosses.

[Kaver]

Pretty sure other classes could do this as well. Destruction warlocks come to mind. Every class with stackable cooldowns can potentially achieve the same results.

No they cant because although Destro Lock can pull some big numbers they have nowhere near the same burst potential as Fire mage. Only Fire mages can do this. You might say you're "pretty sure" but you are just pretty wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Also this strategy only works for this one boss, because it has way less life than other bosses.

They did the whole raid like this. Do you know what you're talking about?

- - - Updated - - -

And this is not a problem with outgearing content in general.
Its a problem where you can have burst dps 5-8 times higher than your usual output.

Exactly. I'm not sure why people in here are so delusional. Is it just a lot of Fire mages who are afraid of getting nerfed. Saying that this is a general problem and that other classes can do the same is crazy. People don't know what they are talking about.

[erifwodahs]

Even with mythic progression, fire mage was more desirable than other classes.

When in doubt -> fire mage. Need burst something down? Fire mage.
Need shorter fight? -> fire mage.

If you had a choice between any other class/spec and fire mage, you took fire mage.

Hunter is good all-rounder but it's not without flaws like hunter cannot do fast switches where targets have some distance between each other like raden.

And this is not a problem with outgearing content in general.
Its a problem where you can have burst dps 5-8 times higher than your usual output.

What about when you cant burst it down? Who played fire in uldir besides Ghuun? Also arcane was picked for burst on the fetid. Who played fire in BoD? Fire sucked for most of the legion too besides EN. Your "fire is the solution" has no legs to stand on. It's just a fotm like dh or wars or locks used to be. And look at the rogues now.
Get some ret palas and they can do the job too. get someone dead and every ret pala will have a stupid output increase. It's just dumb to complain about something killed on lower tier of difficulty with the most powerful

[Cathfaern]

That's not the problem at all. Heroic NY is still current content and these mages are not clearing it "relatively fast", they are completely destroying it. If you compare this to someone clearing old content then you're completely crazy. Heroic NY is not obsolete old content.

For those mages it's obsolete. They would not kill it this fast (or even kill it with this setup) if they would be in normal NY ilvl gear. They are in Mythic gear, so for them it's obsolete content.

[Elitistbhole]

Thats exactly why mmoc is a meme to the playerbase that knows how to press more than 3 buttons. "hurr durr, overgeared Players are ruining my day because reasons".you can literally do this stuff with almost every class.I've been reading mmoc for years now because the threads here never fail to amaze me in how stupid they get.it's like a cesspool of all bad Players of wow that have no clue how the game or even their own class works.theres no Problem in annihilating hc lootpinatas this late into the xpac except for some random underperforming andys that think their lfr dps should be an indicator of the balance of irrelevant content.and then Andys example ist fast Target switching on raden? What the actual fuck. there will always be a class thats better suited for specific encounters. if it wasn't mage now you would be crying about bm or destru(which are busted af in their own right) or w/e class will be stacked a bit in sl.burst is fine and so is busted sustained st like bm.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316277/...-29-fire-mages

As long as we will have classes with high burst dps litreally incomparable to others - like nobody can't even hold a candle, we will never have decent balance.

And before you say it's irrelevant, it is relevant for everyone as high burst specs will be always more desirable than others.
Consistent damage is always less reliable as high burst shortens fights, makes some phases/adds last shorter amount of time and generally makes things easier.

Capping AOE won't prevent that... as long as blizzard continues to add ridiculous trinkets and other on use effects that can be stacked.

I'm pretty sure you can do this with any of the top classes... It was also heroic. It's not at all dh, destro, bm, and other specs are competitive on different fights. Fire mages also had a couple weeks to get there bis corruption. Let stuff balance out before whining or prematurely nerfing and whining hurts the game.

- - - Updated - - -

That's not the problem at all. Heroic NY is still current content and these mages are not clearing it "relatively fast", they are completely destroying it. If you compare this to someone clearing old content then you're completely crazy. Heroic NY is not obsolete old content.

It is heroic becomes the new lfr for a geared group like 4-6 months in.

[shoegazing]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316277/...-29-fire-mages

As long as we will have classes with high burst dps litreally incomparable to others - like nobody can't even hold a candle, we will never have decent balance.

And before you say it's irrelevant, it is relevant for everyone as high burst specs will be always more desirable than others.
Consistent damage is always less reliable as high burst shortens fights, makes some phases/adds last shorter amount of time and generally makes things easier.

Capping AOE won't prevent that... as long as blizzard continues to add ridiculous trinkets and other on use effects that can be stacked.

All I hear is a player arguing for more homogenization, as if every spec should have exactly the same damage profile.

Fuck that.

I play a Subtlety Rogue. I play a burst spec.

I DO NOT WANT AOE DAMAGE, I DO NOT WANT CLEAVE DAMAGE. I play a spec which is focused on burst damage. Yet my fellow Rogues cry like children for AoE damage (homogenization) and you cry for burst nerfs.

Affliction Warlock should not deal damage the same way as Subtlety Rogue. Affliction should be stronger where it can multi-dot. Subtlety should be stronger on a burst phase. These specs are very different but each has situations where it can truly shine and be dominant.

Anyone asking to bring these closer together is an ignorant clown and the sum of feedback coming from these trashcan players ruins the game. Players who ask for this are the reason that modern WoW is garbage and the only difference between specs is what color are the spell effects.

You need to consider that maybe, just maybe, ruining every single class in order to make them perform within 1% of each other in every single goddamn PvE situation is NOT THE RIGHT APPROACH.

Maybe the goddamn PvE encounter designers need to design better and more varied goddamn PvE encounters where everyone can have an opportunity to shine, instead of forcing shit homogenized class design on the entire game.

[Tojara]

I don't think it really matters a whole lot, especially at the end of the expansion. HFC was arguably worse, but that was entirely because Blizzard refused to nerf the trinket for arcane mages (yet they nerfed it for other classes pretty quickly). Somethings get baked into class kits when a new expansion releases, but most things don't, so it's sort of back to the drawing board when the next expansion releases.

The whole point of the valor point upgrades in WoD along with the ring upgrades was allowing you to overpower content, and MoP largely did the same thing to a lesser degree with the double valor point upgrades as well. Legion was sort of an outlier because the Argus trinkets weren't overpowered and only when they massively buffed the concordance buff near the tail end of the expansion did things become a bit silly. Anybody with a brain could see this coming, and we still have another what, 45 corruption resistance to go before hitting the cap? I see this as being no different than people stacking mages again during HFC, or the hot trend a few weeks ago of 20 tank mythic or 30 tank heroic Ny'alotha.

It's a difficult balancing act because loads classes operate on sub-standard DPS outside of CDs. Ret paladins, mages, demo locks and numerous others operate inside strict burst windows. They've tried so many times to balance classes like this by lowering burst, but I'd guess that most people would rather have retard strength for 10-20 seconds every 2 minutes, and hit like a wet noodle until CDs come back up. Burst windows are fun on those classes, even if the trade-off is sitting there doing pretty bad DPS for 75% of the time or more. Some people don't like shadow priests simply because they don't really have burst CDs at all, and you'll meme about saving your burst CD (shadow fiend) for pivotal moments. Instead they operate in a predictable manner (at least as of late) where they ramp to a certain point, then cycle back and forth.

End of expansions are almost always historically like this, or they have been since WoTLK launched. Back in WoTLK they just nerfed ICC by buffing players slowly, and in Cataclysm they just nerfed the Dragonsoul bosses slowly after each and every week. MoP had double valor point upgrades, WoD had the ring and double valor point upgrades and Legion had a trinket system (and eventually the massive buff to concordance). BFA is literally corruption as the final tuning knob and people are running wild with it. This goes back over a decade, they just handled it differently. Personally I'd rather have systems like this than the zone wide buff or debuffs auras present in ICC/Dragon Soul.

[Kurrelurre]

Even with mythic progression, fire mage was more desirable than other classes.

And this is not a problem with outgearing content in general.
Its a problem where you can have burst dps 5-8 times higher than your usual output.

Well lets see when TD come into buying rotation and 30 tanks stack it and do this same feat with auto-attack.

[Kuja]

That was very entertaining! But not as entertaining as a full mage group without a tank

[Ielenia]

And before you say it's irrelevant, it is relevant for everyone as high burst specs will be always more desirable than others.
Consistent damage is always less reliable as high burst shortens fights, makes some phases/adds last shorter amount of time and generally makes things easier.

But it is irrelevant. You're talking about a situation that doesn't happen, at all, outside very controlled environments.

You're taking a video of very experienced and skilled fire mages (at least according to their parses) intentionally grouping together to kill heroic bosses who went through several nerfs already, and those fire mages likely are decked out in M+15's and mythic raid gear already.

Have you noticed that this kind of thing never happens at the beginning or middle of a raid tier? It's always at the end, at the very least.

[Saltysquidoon]

Even with mythic progression, fire mage was more desirable than other classes.

When in doubt -> fire mage. Need burst something down? Fire mage.
Need shorter fight? -> fire mage.

*In this tier.

World-first uldir had one mage that did middling dps (and was playing arcane). All of legion Aff was the best raid spec in the game, pretty definitionally not a burst spec.

Now if you want to argue that burst specs are becoming far too reliant on burst windows and those burst windows are too large. That's a valid conversation to have.

But the argument that burst is just the best at everything of everything in the game is just wrong, especially on prog when the fights are longer. All blood DK runs regularly clear mythic raid content, do you want to argue self-healing is the strongest mechanic in the game?

[Drusin]

And before you say it's irrelevant,

It's irrelevant that mythic raiders cleared heroic at the end of the tier

[Hellobolis]

i sure remember a boss or two during progress that were quite hard carried by our mages.

i don't mind it getting ridiculous now, but let's not kid ourselves they have been extremely strong ever since the patch came out and the bracer hunt was on.

[Drench]

this is difficult to do, they tried to do this with shadow priest with them doing a lot of damage in void form back in legion but very little outside it. they've only made void form feel weak and almost pointless to use.

No void form feels pointless. All damage feels like shiet and based off the poll here like 70% of spriest dont even want void form.