LFR should TEACH players to become better raiders.

[the0o]

We know that LFR is a divisive topic on MMOC but hear me out on this, I believe this would be good for the game.

-EDIT- Just to be 100% Clear, I use LFR and Raid, I do NOT want it removed. I want a better experience for everyone who uses the system.

Intro

LFD was and still is a great tool used to open up heroics, Mythic+, and raids to all players. Depending on the time of day, you can set up a group for almost anything and find players who want to do that content. Mythic+ has become a huge success for players who want small group content in which they control how challenging it becomes.

LFR is a mixed bag and not much of a success story. On 9/19/2011, Ghostcrawler stated :

It is really there for people who want to see the content and want to feel like they’re raiding, but we don’t want it to be more attractive than traditional organized raiding.

Do you feel like you are alienating any part of the player base when you make easier content or do you think the new three difficulty system might solve that?
Ghostcrawler: We’re hoping it solves it. I mean, generally this is an experiment for us. We’re not sure how it is going to work out. We have a hugely diverse player base, and we want to be able to let lots of different players see the content. We felt in the past we were struggling too much to decide “Okay, heroic mode is for 5% of the population… that means normal mode has to be for 95% of the raiding population” and we were stretching ourselves really thin. So our hope is that by offering up an additional difficulty, it will free up normal mode to be targeted towards the kind of traditional guild it has been, where players who don’t have a lot of time to raid or find the commitment too much can do Raid Finder to be able to experience the fights.

Gamepedia.com describes LFR as:

The Raid Finder (or “Looking For Raid”, commonly abbreviated as “LFR”), accessed through the Group Finder, is a tool that helps players find and join a random or specific raid instance with others. The feature was first released in patch 4.3.0 for Dragon Soul as a permanent addition to the raiding system, and has been included in all subsequent instanced raids.

The boss fights in a Raid Finder raid are simplified: their difficulty relative to normal and flexible is scaled down with the intent that they be manageable by randomly assembled, less organized pickup groups. Reduced boss health and damage compared to higher level modes in the same group size, as well as the removal or modification of specific mechanics that normally make the raid dependent on the performance of a single player.

A Raid Finder run is a gentle introduction to the bosses, and can be educational for a player who is new to, or still learning the fight. Some important differences in boss tactics exist between Raid Finder and Normal mode, and it is especially important to remain informed of this when or if you transition to Normal mode.

Each time a Raid Finder group wipes on a given boss, the Determination buff will be applied to the players which increases their health, damage dealt, and healing received by 5%, stacking up to 10 times, and dropping when the boss is killed.

LFR is supposed to bridge the gap between the super causal players and normal raiders, with the flexibility go right the wing of the bosses they need without committing hours clearing the earlier bosses/trash. It is a great concept that should be taken further.




Problems

Off the top of my head I can name 4 bosses that destroyed LFR groups due to poor tuning. N'Zoth, the Corruptor, Kil'jaeden, Lei Shen, and Durumu the Forgotten all had group tactics that needed to be learned but heavily punished the raid if a player screws up. This is fine in an organized group where you know the players, have voice communication system in place, and can replace players who repeatably fail the mechanics. In some raids the trash "teaches" some of the boss mechanics, so the whole group understands how to approach the boss. Combine this with vent/discord/youtube/dungeon guides and you usually have a decent idea of how to boss fight works. LFR players get none of this. The trash is so heavily nerfed that they dont learn the mechanics, players drop in and out of the raid so the people you spent the last 30 minutes with can be replaced with with players who never done the boss before and refused to use the above resources to learn how to complete the encounter.

Imagine explaining N'Zoth to 24 other players, setting up groups, wiping and learning the fight and getting the boss HP lower with every attempt only to have half the group leave and replaced with players who NEVER did the boss. It is not fun to effectively start from scratch with every pull.

If the Above wasnt bad enough, add toxic players to the mix. Players who causes chaos by kicking the guy/gal who is explaining the fight, queuing as a role they have no gear for, pulling extra trash or bosses without a full group or both tanks and/or missing healers, failing boss mechanics on purpose, dying 0.0045 seconds after the pull, or just AFK/auto attacking the boss.

With both of these facts, no sane raider would want to join LFR and players who regularly use LFR would avoid the problem bosses. This defeats the whole point of LFR.



Solutions

1. Proving Ground V.2
2. LFR Score
3. Raider Bait
4. LFR Tuning

Proving Ground V.2


Remember proving grounds?

The Proving Grounds are a special type of single-player scenario that allows players to both learn and demonstrate the core skills associated with a given role or class. These might take the form of testing how long a tank can protect an NPC healer from a stream of oncoming enemies, or how much damage a rogue can deal to targets while avoiding awareness and movement checks of increasing difficulty. The system is intended to be a fun way for players to practice some of the skills that are essential for group gameplay, and for expert players to demonstrate mastery and compete for positions atop leaderboards, similar to the Challenge Mode feature.

There are three types of challenge, Damage, Tank and Healer, with each providing appropriate challenges. Each challenge can be tackled in Bronze, Silver, Gold or Endless mode, with each difficulty unlocked by defeating the previous one. Higher difficulties provide a stiffer challenge not only in terms of numbers but also in complexity, with more complicated sequences and combinations of enemies. Endless mode provides the player with a literally endless challenge, testing players to see how long they can withstand the onslaught

Proving Grounds should be updated every expansion and become a REQUIREMENT to complete before you can queue for LFR. Like the original system, a Gold/silver/bronze tier system should be put in place with and endless version for players who want to test themselves. It should be designed around the player having NORMAL 5 MAN dungeon gear and increased throughout the expansion life-cycle to match the gear requirements need to queue for that tiers raids.



LFR Score

LFR should teach players the fights via pop ups / Raid warnings that say "Move to this location", "Taunt", "Raid wide damage inc, prepare to raid heal", The boss is weakened, do max damage", etc.

I would love a score based system that tracks damage/healing/tank cd used/etc and used that to determine if you can get gear/rewards. An example:

All living players would passively gain points with bonuses for avoiding/soaking some of the bosses abilities (fire on the ground, void zones, anything that can be avoided). DPS would gain points for damage done per time alive and killing adds, healers for healing and keeping the tanks above 50% HP and bonuses for bring an low HP player back to 80-ish% HP, and tanks for taunting on time, using CDs to reduce incoming damage, and reducing raid wide damage.

Your score is private and can never decease so another player cannot grief you by pulling you into fire/voidzones/etc, however if you cause players to lose HP or Die by not soaking a boss mechanic or not moving away from players when you have a bomb/negative effect, your score will pause for few seconds depending how how much damage the player(s) took.

Each boss will have their own score levels. At X score, you become eligible for gear drops (50%) with higher scores getting a higher chance for gear to drop up by another 15%. This system will carry the increased drop rate to the next LFR boss (in the same raid) so a player who is doing their part will have piece of gear drop every 3rd-4th boss. The bonuses will reset when the player is awarded a piece of gear (not counting bonus rolls).

Example 1, player with a very high score: Boss 1 - 65% chance at a loot drop, Boss 2 - 80%, Boss 3 - 95%
Example 2, player with a very high score: Boss 1 - 65% chance at a loot drop, Boss 2 - Loot, Boss 3 - 65%

Example 3, player with a score that awards a chance at gear: Boss 1 - 50% chance at a loot drop, Boss 2 - 50%, Boss 3 - 50%

Example 4, player with a low score: Boss 1 - 0% chance at a loot drop, Boss 2 - 0%, Boss 3 - 0%

Example 5, player with a score that awards a chance at gear who died on phase 2: Your score and the score levels will be calculated based on how long you were alive. If this player was auto attacking and purposely killed him/herself then he will not get gear, However if this was a single misstep made by a player who was doing his/her part then they will have a 50% chance to get loot.

This will teach the player base about the bosses mechanic and reward them for doing it correctly. Toxic players will only punish themselves.



Raider Bait

This one is simple, give top tier raiders a reason to do LFR. It can be a weekly quest that can only be seen by players who killed X number of bosses on normal or higher (this will be account wide). The reward could be extra bonus roll coins, currency for Y (Example: corruptions), Conquest/valor/etc. Players on this quest will be more likely chosen to be the raid leader. Adding higher geared players to LFR will reduce queue times, increase the success rates and give players a chance to see what a geared raider can do.


LFR Tuning

Another very simple change. Remove mechanics that can cause a player to get one shot or wipe the raid and tune the bosses abilities so LFR players have time to react to an error without killing them or someone else. Death and a wipe should not be the punishment in LFR, the lack of gear caused by your low score should be sufficient.




Conclusion

My goal is not to punish LFR player but to empower them to do better. With the above systems in place a player who queues into LFR would have some knowledge of basic boss mechanics (proving grounds), have a leader who has killed the boss on much higher difficulties (raider bait) and would push themselves to do well so they will have a high chance at loot (LFR score).

I got into raiding when I saw endgames raiders chilling in Org in BIS gear riding mounts that came from endgame achievements or bosses. It was inspiring, I am hoping that seeing such titans in your LFR group would motivate others to challenge themselves to do more difficult content and one day become that beacon of awesome for other player.

Thank you for reading though my ideas and I want to know yours and any problems you foresee with the ones I listed.


Sources :
https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...(Ghostcrawler)
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Raid_Finder
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Proving_Grounds



------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for your input. I like some of the ideas being throw around. Here are some of the more common responses :

1. -Didnt read anything here- I hate it and you, and you should feel bad
2. No, LFR is fine as it is.
3. LFR is bad and should be removed
4. LFR players dont want to improve and do more difficult content
5. IDC
6. I like it and want a better LFR experience
7. Some of these Idea were done in MOP/WOD and the results were lackluster
8. Raiders in LFR would be toxic
9. iF YoU dOnT LiKe iT, ThEn DoNt dO iT
10. More "chores" isnt a good idea
11. LFR is WOW's most popular content and messing with it would cause backlashes in other areas
12. your ideas suck
13. sToP tAlKiNg aBoUt lFr, tHiS iS tOpIc #4581111
14. Updating/changing LFR would be too costly (development time)
15. Your ideas punish players
16. -fighting-

[Unlimited Power]

People running LFR will not aspire to do greater. They're generally not interested or do not have time to run organised raiding, and making LFR a worse or different experience than it is currently will not make them run higher difficulties.

[Rathwell]

I disagree. Many people who play LFR have no interest in going on to more difficult content, and either don't have the time or patience to commit to a raiding guild or improve their characters in min/max-ing ways. LFR is, and I think should remain, a tourist mode for casual players who just want to experience the story.

I myself do not have the time or investment to raid in any serious capacity, I just play through LFR so that I can complete my campaign quests and see the story playout, because that's what interests me. I have absolutely no desire to improve my gameplay for higher content because I am not aiming for higher content.

People who intend to do higher content generally don't need to do LFR at all, and can get equivalent or better gear from pushing mythic+.

Let the casuals have LFR, man.

[the0o]

People running LFR will not aspire to do greater. They're generally not interested or do not have time to run organised raiding, and making LFR a worse or different experience than it is currently will not make them run higher difficulties.

I disagree. Many people who play LFR have no interest in going on to more difficult content, and either don't have the time or patience to commit to a raiding guild or improve their characters in min/max-ing ways. LFR is, and I think should remain, a tourist mode for casual players who just want to experience the story.

I myself do not have the time or investment to raid in any serious capacity, I just play through LFR so that I can complete my campaign quests and see the story playout, because that's what interests me. I have absolutely no desire to improve my gameplay for higher content because I am not aiming for higher content.

People who intend to do higher content generally don't need to do LFR at all, and can get equivalent or better gear from pushing mythic+.

Let the casuals have LFR, man.

With my system you can still see the content and complete quests. You will be better geared (more drops due to your performance) and have a better/smoother experience while running it. Its a win/win for everyone.

[Trend]

LFR is supposed to bridge the gap between the super causal players and normal raiders, with the flexibility go right the wing of the bosses they need without committing hours clearing the earlier bosses/trash.

Not sure where you got that and I disagree. It's not to bridge a gap, it's to share content that cost a lot of money to create with a wider audience that just wants to see it in tourist mode. Just like how Normal is not intended to be (although it can be) a bridge as much as it is a super toned down version of the raid for players who don't want to have to do much in the way of mechanics or throughput.

I'll respond to this the same way I respond to the hundreds of other "let's fix LFR" thread: it's fine and it does not need fixing. If you don't like it, don't do it.

And some of your ideas are terrible anyway. For instance, incentivizing real raiders to do LFR has already happened and it is confirmed to be toxic and makes almost everyone unhappy.

[Omedon]

People running LFR will not aspire to do greater. They're generally not interested or do not have time to run organised raiding, and making LFR a worse or different experience than it is currently will not make them run higher difficulties.

Can confirm. Neither I nor my friends play, specifically in large group content, to be challenged. LFR is a storytelling lane for maximum inclusion. I literally deactivate all chat channels but guild and battlenet when I go into LFR. There can be no value placed on "hearing" other players in queued content because there is no guarantee of an absence of language barriers. LFR is best designed as a "solo in parallel" experience, because we can't be expected to invest thought in the group (not team) we inherit.

[Misuteri]

The only time organized raiders ran LFR was at the beginning of a patch because the set bonuses didn’t care what level your gear was from.

That and gearing alts, it was pretty obvious when I ran LFR that when you had 7 guild members and 4 of them were carrying the raid to gear the others. You then saw the same thing in flex when it was a thing, people running multiple raids/difficulties for set bonuses.

I don’t miss the rigid system of having to maintain a 4 set bonus when there might be an individual item that’s better than what you have to keep. However I’d rather work with a 4 piece tier bonus than farming traits, RNG or essences.

[oldgeezer]

LFR as it currently stands is essentially obsolete as, other than seeing the content, you can get way better gear (and many of the same mogs) from WQ.

I've run it on a handful of occasions in BFA. Am I interested in raiding at any higher difficulty? No, not in the slightest. Would I care if LFR was removed? No, not particularly.

[Trend]

The only time organized raiders ran LFR was at the beginning of a patch because the set bonuses didn’t care what level your gear was from.

It was frequently done in Legion because of legiondaries. Until the later in the expansion when they changed legiondary acquisition and/or people had all they needed.

[Omedon]

Here's the thing. Once every 6 months, a story-invested, personally scheduled WoW player has to queue for a single wing of raiding. That wing must be designed to get that player, that only does one wing every 6 months, to the next step in the story quest. This kind of player, which I am and am surrounded with among my friends, has no interest, ever, in "getting better" (especially as "a raider") beyond a personal journey for the odd ilvl spike that comes from an emissary chest. That desire to improve on a raiding axis can't be made part of that journey because for the rest of the time those skills are irrelevant. One wing, every 6 months. And we'd skip that if we could. That is a viable and heavily supported playstyle in modern WoW. That does not link up with learning to be a "better raider."

They will never gate this game's core behind "raiding skills" because the modern customer shouldn't need a raid group to be considered a WoW player. And the game has been designed that way for multiple expansions now.

[Justpassing]

Idk man I don't do LFR but I'd guess people don't take WoW as a course on being a better raider.

[Belloc]

Problem: The players that want to become better raiders already have many resources available to help them towards that end. If LFR becomes a teaching tool, the pool of players interested in it will dry up.

Everyone who has ever had bad players holding their raid groups back already understands that you can't force someone to become a better player.

[Dawon]

LFR is for people that dont give a shit, they just want some free loot and maybe see the end boss. I really dont think people want or even can learn something in a mix of 20 random people with zero leader or instructions and yeah, they are not there for a lesson in raiding anyway.

What you are describing is already in game, it's called "Normal" raiding.

[Agent Smith]

What if LFR was a points based system where if you performed the mechanics right based off of your spec, you get points. The more points the better your RNG is at getting loot.

General points awarded for not standing in fire for too long, not taking unnecessary damage, pulling threat etc.

I dont have all the answers, im sure there are a thousand different reasons why this may not work but if a huge company like Blizzard worked on this for a couple years, it could be implemented in the xpac after Shadowlands.

Thoughts?

[Saltysquidoon]

People running LFR will not aspire to do greater.

This

There is an active thread on this subforum right now complaining about mechanics that can't bruted forced in 5-mans there is absolutely no hope that a large part of the LFR player base want to be better.

[Frolk]

Most ppl doing LFR does not care about personal skill, u cant help those who dont want help, those who aspire to become greater will do so by joining/hosting normal runs, then HC etc.

TIP for those who WANT to become better, if current raid normal is bit much for you, try joining a normal/hc raid pug for the previous raid tier, lots of room for error without wiping.

And D O N T be afraid to ask questions, if u see a fully loaded mythic raider camping AH in town, and u got questions about ur class/spec/raid, 99,5% of em will GLADLY give u 5min+ of their time to help you, mythic raiders are not the elitist toxic raiders some people say we are

[A Chozo]

It was inspiring, I am hoping that seeing such titans in your LFR group would motivate others to challenge themselves to do more difficult content and one day become that beacon of awesome for other player.

Why do you think LFR players need to challenge themselves and stand AFK in the main cities? This is not the purpose of LFR, and this is not in the interest of someone who choses to do LFR.

They don't want to do harder content. They want to do content in the difficulty setting more suited to their tastes. Those that do want to do better go to Normal Raiding / Mythic Dungeons already.

The whole premise that LFR players would do harder content if you pushed their butts towards it is so wrong. They don't ascend when the game becomes harder, they simply quit and go play something actually playable.

[MoanaLisa]

I've always thought this even though it wouldn't be true for a lot of people. At the very least using a version of Blizzard's raid text to inform people of what to do and not do, where to stand and not stand [Run Away / Group Up around Boss / Avoid black clouds on floor] might improve the experience a bit. Players that don't want to deal with that or find it annoying can turn it off.

Minority opinion I know but if LFR is for hand-holding players through the raid (as it partially is) then do it right and in a way where those players who are new or are wondering about it can learn something. It's fucking bizarre that everyone seems to think that's a bad thing.

There are other ways to help an LFR run to be successful other than nerfing the shit out of everything and removing most of the mechanics.

[Morae]

No.

Raiding, as far as guild progression goes, is mostly learning by repetition. Only requirement is that you aren't too dumb.

For pugging where you want a raid that is already geared and supposedly experienced, you might be accidentally picking up people who have no idea what to do. This has very little to do with LFR. Most people who go to LFR arent the people who want to pug or join guilds for progression.


LFR is not a teaching tool. Its a tool for people who can't or won't want to take part into organized raiding. To my understanding LFR is the only reason its worth for blizz to put resources into raiding. Its very popular. I have no source for this, but I have heard this somewhere.

LFR already serves its purpose. Blizz only has to make sure they dont put N'zoth style LFR killers and its ok.

[Unholyground]

Raid finder is fine, I fell out of love with core raiding many years ago as the time investment was too much as most things are in WoW IF you play other games. No one has time to be into other games + life it is just too much to focus on and that is the audience they cater to with all group finding tools.