Unpopular opinion: 10 man raids should make a return in Shadowlands.

[Arctestoid]

In my opinion, 10 man raiding was the pinnacle of raiding in World Of Warcraft. 20 man Mythic feels a bit awkward. Maybe it shouldn't even exist at all? Flex is a great feature, but I feel as though the hardest difficulty should be focused more on smaller scale content so more groups can be formed, and it would also make balancing a lot easier for not just the raid, but for classes as well. Smaller scale, easier to balance the raid, making it possibly more tuned and difficult than the current implementation of Mythic? Like I said, this is my unpopular opinion, and you all are all entitled to disagree with me, or agree.

My Pros and cons to 10 man raiding

Pros:

Easy to organize

Less of a meta presence (smaller groups = more of each class or spec will be taken)

Easier to gear up a dedicated raid team.

More fun than 25 man or Mythic (opinion)

Less people = less time between each pull of the boss during progression.

Way easier to get to know 10-15 people than 20-30 people.

Cons:

Less gear drops

Easier to leave a guild and join another 10 man group. Doubled edged sword of 10 man raiding.

?


What are your opinions on Mythic raiding in it's current state? the biggest thing for me has always been getting to know more and more people, it's difficult to juggle all of that and real life at times, 10 man raiding was fun, engaging, and it felt more..personal between the 10 members in the raid.

If this sounds like it should be in the raiding discussion forum by the way, my apologies.

Thanks for contributing to my post!

[Laughingjack]

The major issue with ten man raids were that mechanics had to be reworked heavily and even then most of the time certain ones became trivial due to the increased amount of player space.

I see no real benefits to trying to make mythic 10s. Flex is fine for them.

[Hellobolis]

what makes you think that's an unpopular opinion? there are tons of people with fond memories of that who would love to have it back.

(and don't say you can do it today, virtually everything is clearly balanced with 15 people in mind. in particular things involving interrupts and soaking pools. i still have PTSD from when we tried to do restless cabal with 10 people.)

[Saltysquidoon]

Mythic exists as a set team number because it's impossible for blizzard to balance the highest end around different raid sizes. For example, Halfus wyrmbreaker was famous for being many times harder on 10 man then 25. So the likelihood of flex mythic in the near future (or potentially ever) is exceedingly low.

Also, you don't need to have a deep personal connection with everyone you raid with, nor would they necessarily want that. I have raided with/been in a guild with the same people (off and on) since cata. To this day there are at least 2 or 3 people who all I can say about them is "They play X class and are an accountant/office manager".

Less of a meta presence (smaller groups = more of each class or spec will be taken)

Are you sure about that?

[Hellobolis]

The major issue with ten man raids were that mechanics had to be reworked heavily and even then most of the time certain ones became trivial due to the increased amount of player space.

I see no real benefits to trying to make mythic 10s. Flex is fine for them.

the only drawback is that it's more work for blizz. the community always considered 10 and 25man to be quite seperate, so as long blizz doesn't actually try to make them equal that won't be an issue.

[Lefrog]

Less of a meta presence (smaller groups = more of each class or spec will be taken)

Iirc the reason they settled on 20 man was because it was way easier to design and balance the encounter. The chances of having raid buffs, aoe vs. ST, variety of utility like dispels or movement buffs increase with a bigger raid size.

[glowpipe]

I would murder an entire nation to get 10 man mythic raiding. We are in a HC only raiding guild with about 15-16 people. We have a really good core of 10 people, that want to raid mythic, all know eachother well irl etc, but we are not able to recruit enough for mythic since you need, what 25 + active players to always have 20 players ready. And some of our players would scare away potential mythic raiders so 10 man mythic would have been absolutely perfect and i would murder for it!

[Revamp Man]

Less of a meta presence.....since when lol

Easier to gear but at the same time less loot....if the 20 man group doesn’t do splits for lower content I guess

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Iirc the reason they settled on 20 man was because it was way easier to design and balance the encounter. The chances of having raid buffs, aoe vs. ST, variety of utility like dispels or movement buffs increase with a bigger raid size.

Exactly

Heck look at SoO or better yet look at when 10 man was supposedly made “equal” to 25

[MrLachyG]

nah there is a reason 10 man raids were discontinued, sort of. 20 man raids are more flexible, allowing a greater amount of classes in which means Blizzard can design encounters around that very fact. unless you had a very diverse raid team consisting of one of each class (which very few would have) then you were at a disadvantage when it came to 25 man. if you want to do 10 man raiding you still can, just not at the highest difficulty

[Razion]

Class stacking is a problem in 10m.

[Lahis]

10 never went anywhere. Normal and heroic can take anything between 10 and 30.

[kaminaris]

It is much easier to organize 10 than 20 man. 20 should have never been a thing.
If blizz had issues with balancing 10 vs 25, they should have made 15s not 20.

So its not unpopular opinion. Its actually super popular opinion to bring back 10s.

And what the hell is wrong with having unbalanced raid sizes, last time I checked it was suppose to be an MMO not e-sport lobby game.

At the very least mythic should be 15-20 flex so that if 3 dudes doesn't show you aren't screwed.

[Uko]

10 man mythic would suck imo. They couldn't design around all the classes in the game being in the raid so either it has to be under tuned to account for some groups not having x class or over tuned so that unless you stack x class you cant kill it reasonably. It would also effectively kill half the mythic raiding scene. You can call it trimming the fat or whatever with cutting down to 10man those other 10+ in a current mythic guild wont just form their own guild. Either they would have to find somewhere to go or just quit the game.

[kaminaris]

10 man mythic would suck imo. They couldn't design around all the classes in the game being in the raid so either it has to be under tuned to account for some groups not having x class or over tuned so that unless you stack x class you cant kill it reasonably. It would also effectively kill half the mythic raiding scene. You can call it trimming the fat or whatever with cutting down to 10man those other 10+ in a current mythic guild wont just form their own guild. Either they would have to find somewhere to go or just quit the game.

Ah thats bullshit and you know it. I can't think of any nyalotha boss that required specific class.

[Uko]

Ah thats bullshit and you know it. I can't think of any nyalotha boss that required specific class.

That might be true now but thats because of absurd power scaling with corruptions. If you look back at the last time there existed 10 and 25man raiding the tuning was horribad for 10. It was either a joke compared to the 25man version or way harder to handle the mechanics because of the limited people to do so. 10 man is just very limiting on encounter design in a game with 12 classes.

[Saltysquidoon]

And what the hell is wrong with having unbalanced raid sizes, last time I checked it was suppose to be an MMO not e-sport lobby game.

At the very least mythic should be 15-20 flex so that if 3 dudes doesn't show you aren't screwed.

Can you show me where in the definition of mmo unbalanced raid sizes comes up? Nowhere? Oh it's just salt about 'esports lobby games' cool.

Further to the second point. There are multiple instances of bosses being harder on one difficulty over another purely down to raid size, Halfus is quite famous for being one of the (rare) bosses harder on 10 than 25. Blizzard has directly stated that mythic is a set size so they don't have to worry about mechanics balancing around party scaling. Another example is tank swapping, almost every fight requires tank swapping now which would effectively put a 100% burden on 10 man over 20 for tank v dps positions (not even including fights you three tank).

[Donkeywing]

No, the main problem is fight mechanics. If 10m was to be the only mode, half the fights couldn't exist. Currently Nzoth mythic is a great example; the evoke mechanic wouldn't be a threat at all, even if the room was smaller. The only way for a 10m fight to be actually challenging is to completely overtune the numbers (the ''balance'' ppl keep talking about) to the point evoke does become a problem, regardless of the fact you're not fighting space/los spread from healers.
In order for them to design great fights and mechanics, you simply need a certain amount of people for it to work. 20m is barely enough in my opinion. The only way for 10m to work is to essentially butcher half the fight (which is what happened in cata/mop), in which case you might aswell just do 10hc. The amount of mechanics they can design would be extremely limited with 10m in mind.

[trapmaster]

the only drawback is that it's more work for blizz. the community always considered 10 and 25man to be quite seperate, so as long blizz doesn't actually try to make them equal that won't be an issue.

I like 10 and 25 man ideas it was such interesting completion back and forth is like watching wcw tnt vs WWf usa channel.

[Milfshaked]

I much prefer either the old ICC or Ulduar 10v25 systems, where 10 man is the easier and more casual raid option on a seperate lockout. I do not think 10 man is suitable for the pinnacle endgame. It is so hard to balance, since a single person can change what strengths and weaknesses the group have so much. Especially having 10 man alongside 20/25 is a very bad idea.

[cparle87]

It is much easier to organize 10 than 20 man. 20 should have never been a thing.
If blizz had issues with balancing 10 vs 25, they should have made 15s not 20.

So its not unpopular opinion. Its actually super popular opinion to bring back 10s.

And what the hell is wrong with having unbalanced raid sizes, last time I checked it was suppose to be an MMO not e-sport lobby game.

At the very least mythic should be 15-20 flex so that if 3 dudes doesn't show you aren't screwed.

10-mans never left. It's just not available at the highest level. Come to think of it that was usually the case. In classic and BC the 10-mans were mid-range not endgame. In Wrath they had totally different loot tables. When Blizz tried to make them equal in the Cata/MoP days people found out what settings bosses were easiest on, and did that. Some examples have already been made.