Taking the pulse of the community

[Gaidax]

Not being able to properly prepot and precast due to lack of a pull timer makes having you in the raid objectively worse than somebody who would do those things.

Surviving a fight really is not a particularly useful benchmark either. You're absolutely right that you don't belong in content that involves other people, because you're choosing to perform worse, which is disrespectful as hell.

TBH, it's just a shitty PuG. Prepotting there? Ha ha... I'd be shocked if half of them even would have used a pot at all there.

Frankly I don't expect anything of these.

[Coconut]

DBM certainly has its uses (like knowing the timers for bombs blowing up, watching barrage etc) but it isn't just about bar/sound notifications to you but also the /s and /y notifications to others so you're neglecting core functionalities of DBM.

Either way, I don't have a strong opinion about whether DBM warranted you the boot (I certainly don't think it made you as useful as others willing to use it but whatever). I do think it's not worth going on some grand crusade about some RL that booted you from a raid that already seemed like a clown fiesta and just didn't give you a reason. It lacked consideration but I wouldn't label it as some kind of grave injustice.

I think the bombs, barrages and avalanches are pretty visible by default. Automatically calling things that are on you to the rest of the raid... eh, I'll give you that, it could be useful, but borderline. About as much as the prepot the others mentioned (I'm sure every pug member on mythic Jaina prepots).

I do accept that I might have taken harder than I should have - like I said earlier in the thread, I'm not used with this kind of behavior, so it resonated with me. Especially since I thought my awareness during that pull was better than the raid average and getting kicked for a comment was a bit of a shock.

Give you a benefit of the doubt for the whole 2 more sentences, which seeing what you do here would likely just lead to more frustration and same kick anyway.

The Great Destiny Man was complaining I wasn't invested in the thread before, now you're accusing me for being too invested. This is exactly why I chose to take a break from the discussion before. I'm passionate about my opinions, so when I do find time to post, I can get fierce and elaborate. That doesn't mean I was gonna keep badgering the raid leader in the middle of a run; there wasn't anything else to say about the paladin.

That being said, Mythic Jaina is not that hard an encounter. People outgear it by 50-70 item levels and can burn through the phases quickly. It's all a matter of practicing some mechanics and the key transitions, so long as the group can perform the mechanics, it doesn't really matter if you prepot or do 90% of your simmed dps, or if a couple people get frozen a little more often than Method members would. All it takes is going through a few tries to learn the moves, and the fact that you need to stack makes things a lot easier in terms of knowing where you need to be. Denying people those learning attempts is a vicious circle, and sounds more like gatekeeping than a bid for efficiency. On a game-wide level, it's not more efficient that you keep encountering people who can't execute the mechanics week after week after week.

[Seranthor]

I think the bombs, barrages and avalanches are pretty visible by default. Automatically calling things that are on you to the rest of the raid... eh, I'll give you that, it could be useful, but borderline. About as much as the prepot the others mentioned (I'm sure every pug member on mythic Jaina prepots).

I do accept that I might have taken harder than I should have - like I said earlier in the thread, I'm not used with this kind of behavior, so it resonated with me. Especially since I thought my awareness during that pull was better than the raid average and getting kicked for a comment was a bit of a shock.



The Great Destiny Man was complaining I wasn't invested in the thread before, now you're accusing me for being too invested. This is exactly why I chose to take a break from the discussion before. I'm passionate about my opinions, so when I do find time to post, I can get fierce and elaborate. That doesn't mean I was gonna keep badgering the raid leader in the middle of a run; there wasn't anything else to say about the paladin.

That being said, Mythic Jaina is not that hard an encounter. People outgear it by 50-70 item levels and can burn through the phases quickly. It's all a matter of practicing some mechanics and the key transitions, so long as the group can perform the mechanics, it doesn't really matter if you prepot or do 90% of your simmed dps, or if a couple people get frozen a little more often than Method members would. All it takes is going through a few tries to learn the moves, and the fact that you need to stack makes things a lot easier in terms of knowing where you need to be. Denying people those learning attempts is a vicious circle, and sounds more like gatekeeping than a bid for efficiency. On a game-wide level, it's not more efficient that you keep encountering people who can't execute the mechanics week after week after week.

RL wasn't there to 'teach' you, they expected you to already KNOW... wasn't you that said they wanted the achievement as a requirement to join? Why do you suppose they wanted that... they wanted it because they expected you to know the fights and to be prepared. If you want to handhold a group for an hour, 2, 3 or a whole day, perhaps YOU should start the group, YOU make the rules, YOU put up with people like you.

Not hard you say... but you clearly failed... so it was above your skill level.

[tmamass]

So you are part of the problem. I killed Jaina Mythic before, did plenty of other difficult content without DBM. I did not miss the pull because I was paying attention anyway. I fail to see how this was a problem of me "not using minimum tools" (nor do I plan to use them just because someone can't do a normal pull timer).

no, the other way around: YOU are part of the problem cause installing dbm is so too much for you.

[Gaidax]

The Great Destiny Man was complaining I wasn't invested in the thread before, now you're accusing me for being too invested. This is exactly why I chose to take a break from the discussion before. I'm passionate about my opinions, so when I do find time to post, I can get fierce and elaborate. That doesn't mean I was gonna keep badgering the raid leader in the middle of a run; there wasn't anything else to say about the paladin.

That being said, Mythic Jaina is not that hard an encounter. People outgear it by 50-70 item levels and can burn through the phases quickly. It's all a matter of practicing some mechanics and the key transitions, so long as the group can perform the mechanics, it doesn't really matter if you prepot or do 90% of your simmed dps, or if a couple people get frozen a little more often than Method members would. All it takes is going through a few tries to learn the moves, and the fact that you need to stack makes things a lot easier in terms of knowing where you need to be. Denying people those learning attempts is a vicious circle, and sounds more like gatekeeping than a bid for efficiency. On a game-wide level, it's not more efficient that you keep encountering people who can't execute the mechanics week after week after week.

I can see you are passionate about your opinions and I have no doubt you'd be passionate about your opinions with that RL back and forth, so even given a bit more time you'd still end up shooting yourself there.

As for Mythic Jaina - it's no problem for a coordinated core group like my guild, we know this fight fully, we got the DPS and we got the setup and assignments under the belt.

But for some random PuG with people there undoubtedly being at 8.2 level DPS-wise or little more than that and hardly much idea about the fight? I mean, let's be real. You wiped at P1, did not even manage to transition and you still say that? People there are not at 90% of their simmed DPS, chances are they are barely at 60% if that. So yes, she did not transition and you all wiped on frikkin' P1 because your group of lemmings could not even handle the mechanics and do P1 as it was done per usual.

You keep prattling about how it's easy and all, but reality is that it's one of the 2 fights remaining in Mythic BoD where you can still legitimately wipe even as a guild group if you don't execute mechanics properly, let alone a frikkin' PuG of randoms that go AFK randomly to boot. There is no half-assing that fight.

[Coconut]

Not hard you say... but you clearly failed... so it was above your skill level.

It was above the skill of everyone in the group by that logic. Why does it come down to me? I didn't miss the pull, I didn't get frozen, I didn't fail at raid awareness, I didn't drop avalanche on other players, or failed to clear fire with it, I didn't get thrown in the water by the bombardment. How do you come to the conclusion that the wipe was in any way on me?

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I can see you are passionate about your opinions and I have no doubt you'd be passionate about your opinions with that RL back and forth, so even given a bit more time you'd still end up shooting yourself there.

If you're going to make up a scenario about me and insist on it even when I'm telling you it's not correct, your attitude towards me is no better than you think mine was towards the raid leader. I make assumptions because he didn't say anything himself, you make assumptions in spite of what I'm saying. What's the point in discussing?

But for some random pug with people there undoubtedly being at 8.2 level DPS-wise or little more than that and hardly much idea about the fight? I mean, let's be real. You wiped at P1, did not even manage to transition and you still say that? People there are not at 90% of their simmed DPS, chances are they are barely at 60% if that. So yes, she did not transition and you all wiped on frikkin' P1 because your group of lemmings could not even handle the mechanics and do P1 as it was done per usual.

That pug was 470+ link achievement. Presumably everyone had at least seen the other phases, had heard the tactics before. People may need a warm up. They may need to be reminded of some key mechanics, which is on the leader. It's doubtful that they would hit a stone wall, though (and they did not, they killed her eventually, though I couldn't say how many were replaced by the end).

[Great Destiny Man]

The Great Destiny Man was complaining I wasn't invested in the thread before, now you're accusing me for being too invested. This is exactly why I chose to take a break from the discussion before.

People dropping hotly debated topics in the form of personal experiences and then just retreating out of them is common on these forums and it really serves fuck all purpose other than to get people at each others throats.

That's why I made the comment because at that time it seemed to be the way it was going. What you choose to do with the thread is up to you but I'm not going to criticise you for trying to discuss the topic.

[Seranthor]

It was above the skill of everyone in the group by that logic. Why does it come down to me? I didn't miss the pull, I didn't get frozen, I didn't fail at raid awareness, I didn't drop avalanche on other players, or failed to clear fire with it, I didn't get thrown in the water by the bombardment. How do you come to the conclusion that the wipe was in any way on me?

Yes, yes, it was everyone else's fault your group failed, there is no way we could hold you at all responsible for the group failing. But oddly after you were removed they succeeded... Hmmmmm.

[Coconut]

People dropping hotly debated topics in the form of personal experiences and then just retreating out of them is common on these forums and it really serves fuck all purpose other than to get people at each others throats.

That's why I made the comment because at that time it seemed to be the way it was going. What you choose to do with the thread is up to you but I'm not going to criticise you for trying to discuss the topic.

I dropped it because it was getting very late and I knew I would be busy the following days. It felt fair to let people know I wouldn't be responding.

Aside from that, I was expecting a lot of similar arguments, both in my favor and against me, and there was no point having the same debate with several people. And there is also the fairly common practice of people simply making contrarian arguments or trying to "get you" with something (the prepot thing I don't take very seriously, since phase one is percentage based and usually goes smoothly) and not admitting when they are factually wrong (i.e. someone said I can just join another group, and never owned up to being wrong about how mythic lockouts work).

Tonight I brought up some more elaborate points, so I felt it was worth engaging again. But it's once again late and I will stop soon, so I will repeat my disclaimer: I will keep track of the thread, but I may not post unless I can say something new and worthwhile. I will still reply to Gaidax if there is anything to say, and then probably go to sleep.

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Yes, yes, it was everyone else's fault your group failed, there is no way we could hold you at all responsible for the group failing. But oddly after you were removed they succeeded... Hmmmmm.

That's a non sequitur.

[Seranthor]

That's a non sequitur.

They failed with you in the group, they succeeded without you. Both are pretty solidly proven facts. What are we supposed to take away from that?

[Great Destiny Man]

I dropped it because it was getting very late and I knew I would be busy the following days. It felt fair to let people know I wouldn't be responding.

Aside from that, I was expecting a lot of similar arguments, both in my favor and against me, and there was no point having the same debate with several people. And there is also the fairly common practice of people simply making contrarian arguments or trying to "get you" with something (the prepot thing I don't take very seriously, since phase one is percentage based and usually goes smoothly) and not admitting when they are factually wrong (i.e. someone said I can just join another group, and never owned up to being wrong about how mythic lockouts work).

Tonight I brought up some more elaborate points, so I felt it was worth engaging again. But it's once again late and I will stop soon, so I will repeat my disclaimer: I will keep track of the thread, but I may not post unless I can say something new and worthwhile. I will still reply to Gaidax if there is anything to say, and then probably go to sleep.

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That's a non sequitur.

Like prepots arent the be all and end all things but getting phases down quicker does minimise risks and you'd be crazy to think prepots have no effect on dps.

The issue for me is more when it's a particularly aggravating fight (due its sheer RNG ovelap shitfest design) I'd prefer to see raid doing what they can to make things easier and not risk us wiping for ages just to get phase 2.

[Coconut]

They failed with you in the group, they succeeded without you. What are we supposed to take away from that?

Gee, I don't know, maybe that the leader realized they couldn't brute force phase one and told people to split into ranged and melee groups? Which would have happened regardless of whether I stayed or left? Use your brain and have a good night.

[Seranthor]

Gee, I don't know, maybe that the leader realized they couldn't brute force phase one and told people to split into ranged and melee groups? Which would have happened regardless of whether I stayed or left? Use your brain and have a good night.

I'm more inclined that they got rid of the dead weight.

[Coconut]

The issue for me is more when it's a particularly aggravating fight (due its sheer RNG ovelap shitfest design) I'd prefer to see raid doing what they can to make things easier and not risk us wiping for ages just to get phase 2.

From previous experience phase one seemed fairly accessible, this time it failed because the strategy wasn't aligned with the available dps (like I said, might be possible to stack and burn if people have Mythic Ny'alotha gear, not so much with heroic ilvl). Either way, this group had three failed attempts at Mekkatorque, which we then decided to skip, so the raid knew not to expect cutting edge performance.

In any case, I'm off for now. Thank you for the discussion!

[tmamass]

I stopped using DBM because my pc is on the old side and addons were affecting my FPS. Like I said, I had completely forgotten it existed as I did plenty of things without it. I don't see how it was a factor for this encounter apart for the aforementioned pull timer (which other groups can make visible to everyone). I think the leader was in the wrong to assume DBM would affect results in the encounter, regardless of what QoL it might bring.

not seeing the pull counter = you dont pre-pot, you are not prepared and you dont start when others do aka you do less dps.

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As I said in a different comment, it is an issue with FPS on my computer and a general lack of need for it. Would be nice to know how lack of DBM impedes one on Mythic Jaina, though. I might be wrong without realizing it!

If dbm_core affects your fps you should get a new pc....

[Archmage Xaxxas]

DBM is like training wheels for WoW.

What a hilarious superiority complex to have when someone isn't able to play the game without a Mod Holding their hand.

If Blizzard is actually making the game around DBM like others said, they should put it in the base-game.


Since it's not, I have no solid way to take these "hurdcorree raidurss" seriously when they can't pedal the damn bike with their own two feet and balance.

It's like a bunch of people basically going "hEY MY mommy still wipes my rump, and I know I'm cleaner for it. So if you clean yourself, I know you're not clean like DB-Mommy makes me."

[Highelf]

Refusing helpful information for any activity you partake in only for the sake of it is just....weird.

I never understood people who refuse to download boss mods (dbm, bw, etc). They are the 'vegans' of wow imho, always ready to explain to everyone how their way is better and how we are essentially fools for not doing it the same.

Relying on one self rather than an outside source is just...weird.

[Nefarious Tea]

DBM is not required to see a pull timer. Raid lead is an idiot and a liar.