Torghast - timer change and loot access

[Aigilas]

So reading the latest updates to torghast,

they have removed the timers, but kept the torments to make the higher levels harder, which i think is good It removes the "timer" and adds extra challenge albeit slight to the run.

Also the extra rewards for a "prompt run" is not an actual thing but a remnant from an old design.

These are all great things. Is there anything else, you would change/ add to the existing structure of Torghast

[Relapses]

Good changes.

It's nice to see Blizzard listening to feedback.

[Bloodorem]

Im really happy about these changes.
I seriously hated the idea about the softtimers.
To increase the dificulty on higher levels with these affixes is a good change.

[Athulua]

I hope that they will get the balance of this right.

HV started with an incredibly restrictive timer. To the point of you having to rush objectives without any sort of exploration allowed. This continued up to cloak rank 11, after which the timer became almost not a factor. But then heroic visions became lengthy tedious chores. I found them fun up until getting mad world achievement and unlocking the entire research tree. Now that they are the best source of echoes of nyalotha, i just find them a boring ass grind.

And that's because the progression has stopped. Every vision i clear will be the same, i will see no improvement in my clear times, corruption resistance, memento gain etc. Nothing. Something as simple as a stacking buff of +3% damage / health and +1% all stats per every 5-mask clear would fix the problem and make them more entertaining. Just like farming raid content works - progression kill is difficult, 10th farm kill is easy, 20th farm kill is very, very easy. With more and more damage as you clear 5-mask visions you would see a clear speed increases in your farm runs of them. And you would wonder how fast could you clear it once you had 30 stacks of this buff. But it doesn't happen, every time you go it will be the same shit.

I don't want Torghast to end up in a 90 minute chore every week, possible multiple times a week. But they said that the "mandatory" part will be rather quick to do.
Now that they abolished the idea of timer, there are some things they could do to make fights more difficult. Not necessarily number wise, because that has a very thin line of balance - it's either you kill them with nearly full HP bar remaining, or they kill you very fast with you being unable to do much about it. The space in which you kill them with some sort difficulty is very, very narrow.

Mechanics that could make boss encounters more challenging:
-avoidable AOE
-cone / straight line casts that need to be sidestepped
-multiple interruptable abilities, with you having to prioritze the important ones
-spawning adds that need to be killed
-spawning impossibly hard adds that need to be CC'ed (eg. an add that has more HP than the boss itself but loses 5% health per second, eventually dies on its own)
-casts that need to be line of sighted
-buff and debuff zones like on Elisande

not much else comes to mind tbh. Most of those skills were used in HV's on the end boss after clearing the objectives.

[Eapoe]

Now time to start the whine about people not being able to get as far because it’s too hard.

[RyudoTFO]

Don't have Alpha myself to test it, but from the description alone, I wouldn't change a bit of it right now. Removing the timers was the right decision. It has challenging aspects and also endless mode for cosmetic rewards. It actually went from "something I have to do, to get better gear" to a feature I'm looking forward to.

[owbu]

So have they done anything about the "waiting 3 minutes between every pull is the boring but best strategy" problem that Ion used as an explanation for the timer existing?

Because its not like that was a bad argument - just a bad solution to the problem. (Making the CDs be availabe without a timer but only once per encounter/3 times per floor/ other solution would be the obvious fix).

[huth]

So have they done anything about the "waiting 3 minutes between every pull is the boring but best strategy" problem that Ion used as an explanation for the timer existing?

Because its not like that was a bad argument - just a bad solution to the problem. (Making the CDs be availabe without a timer but only once per encounter/3 times per floor/ other solution would be the obvious fix).

Maybe, but i think it is one that's worth checking if anybody actually bothers with first. The sheer time investment required may already serve as a sufficient disincentive without needing any extra mechanics. Especially if the extra rewards aren't much better than you could get a few floors earlier without all the sitting around.

[owbu]

Maybe, but i think it is one that's worth checking if anybody actually bothers with first. The sheer time investment required may already serve as a sufficient disincentive without needing any extra mechanics. Especially if the extra rewards aren't much better than you could get a few floors earlier without all the sitting around.

I would agree with that if waiting for cds would just give you a 10% power boost or something. Then the additional floor you might or might not reach while waisting a whole bunch of time would probably only convince the people who you cant help anyways (everyone who uses the word mandatory too often) to do that.

But waiting for cds will make you about twice as powerful on each pull. If the reward system isnt designed to care wether you can reach [2 cds per floor] floors vs. [cds every pull] floors, that basically means its just rewarding you for participating. Like warfronts or islands mostly give you stuff for being there once a week/month. And I dont think thats the kind of feature that torghast was supposed to be.

So chances are most of the people who care at all about sticking with the curve will feel forced to do it, unless there is something that discourages "degenerate" (thanks for that, Ion oO) gameplay.

[huth]

But waiting for cds will make you about twice as powerful on each pull. If the reward system isnt designed to care wether you can reach [2 cds per floor] floors vs. [cds every pull] floors, that basically means its just rewarding you for participating. Like warfronts or islands mostly give you stuff for being there once a week/month. And I dont think thats the kind of feature that torghast was supposed to be.

You're forgetting total time investment. You need to have several hours of consecutive playtime just to even consider the option. That's prohibitive for a majority of players.

Also, having rewards cap out before the truly extreme parts of the game isn't new, or even unusual. That's pretty much the default in WoW. There's a difference between having a cap and them not scaling at all.

[Omedon]

You're forgetting total time investment. You need to have several hours of consecutive playtime just to even consider the option. That's prohibitive for a majority of players.

Also, having rewards cap out before the truly extreme parts of the game isn't new, or even unusual. That's pretty much the default in WoW. There's a difference between having a cap and them not scaling at all.

Totally agree. While the option to wait for longer cooldowns seems “possible,” we have to remember that at its core, modern WoW is a time management game. I do think that this is the angle that will quietly be taken to disincentivize the “only pull under the effects of heroism” tactic.

I’m very pleased with the direction Torghast development is taking, and my only remaining concern is I don’t want another coalescing visions situation. If everyone gets at least one free run per week, though... my 33-deep alt army should keep me satisfied hehe!

[Laughingjack]

I think a lot of people are reading into it to much to be honest. These higher levels are not for loot but for cosmetic rewards unless I missed a interview where they changed the reward structure.

[owbu]

You're forgetting total time investment. You need to have several hours of consecutive playtime just to even consider the option. That's prohibitive for a majority of players.

Also, having rewards cap out before the truly extreme parts of the game isn't new, or even unusual. That's pretty much the default in WoW. There's a difference between having a cap and them not scaling at all.

Yeah, thats what I meant. Waiting for cds does not only make you be able to reach a bit further into the extreme parts of the game. It makes you be able do about double your progress. It makes extreme pulls challenging and it makes challenging pulls trivial. So unless you get a decent perecentage of the rewards for only doing the trivial part of the tower, people will start thinking about waiting for cds once the challenging pulls start.

And if getting most of your reward from the trivial part of the system is how it works, I think the feature will wear out its novelty pretty fast. Both raiding and dungeons, the two main features in the game that are not just "time in, reward out" skinner boxes, have really well scaling reward systems. And if Torghast doesnt want to be the new world quest/islands/warfronts feature but more like the solo version of those two (and I am pretty sure that is the intent) it needs to be rewarding and fun on the trivial and the challenging level, while not being too cheesable on the extreme level. Without a way to prevent CD cheesing, it will only achieve one of those.

(Also additional time investment will not stop people above the lfr playerbase from using it, if it gives better rewards. See: every other time you could get better gear through torturing yourself with boredom. Like when we used to wait for cds before every pull before they invented cd resets in raids or when we only did mechanar over and over because that was the fastest dungeons to clear. Just wait and see if people will use an effective strategy is just not something any game developer sould ever think. Its like saying: lets see if people will pay their taxes voluntarily, because most of them probably know that streets need to be build. (Delayed Trigger warning for libertarians))

[Nattylights]

I do not have access to SL testing myself, but i am happy to hear they are not making Torghast a timed activity.

[Elkfingers]

Yeah, thats what I meant. Waiting for cds does not only make you be able to reach a bit further into the extreme parts of the game. It makes you be able do about double your progress. It makes extreme pulls challenging and it makes challenging pulls trivial. So unless you get a decent perecentage of the rewards for only doing the trivial part of the tower, people will start thinking about waiting for cds once the challenging pulls start.

And if getting most of your reward from the trivial part of the system is how it works, I think the feature will wear out its novelty pretty fast. Both raiding and dungeons, the two main features in the game that are not just "time in, reward out" skinner boxes, have really well scaling reward systems. And if Torghast doesnt want to be the new world quest/islands/warfronts feature but more like the solo version of those two (and I am pretty sure that is the intent) it needs to be rewarding and fun on the trivial and the challenging level, while not being too cheesable on the extreme level. Without a way to prevent CD cheesing, it will only achieve one of those.

(Also additional time investment will not stop people above the lfr playerbase from using it, if it gives better rewards. See: every other time you could get better gear through torturing yourself with boredom. Like when we used to wait for cds before every pull before they invented cd resets in raids or when we only did mechanar over and over because that was the fastest dungeons to clear. Just wait and see if people will use an effective strategy is just not something any game developer sould ever think. Its like saying: lets see if people will pay their taxes voluntarily, because most of them probably know that streets need to be build. (Delayed Trigger warning for libertarians))

If the rewards are purely cosmetic past a certain point, I don't see why waiting for CDs needs to be prevented for any practical reason. Lower skilled players would probably have to do that much earlier on anyway, and better players would only need to do it on the extreme end (at which point why are we even governing how edge-case content should be played).

I really don't see anything positive coming from trying to force people into a prescribed playstyle. Having the content is enough - people should be able to tackle it however they choose. If the novelty wears out for some people, then that's no problem. It doesn't make sense to force them to play the content they're no longer enjoying.

[huth]

And if getting most of your reward from the trivial part of the system is how it works, I think the feature will wear out its novelty pretty fast. Both raiding and dungeons, the two main features in the game that are not just "time in, reward out" skinner boxes, have really well scaling reward systems. And if Torghast doesnt want to be the new world quest/islands/warfronts feature but more like the solo version of those two (and I am pretty sure that is the intent) it needs to be rewarding and fun on the trivial and the challenging level, while not being too cheesable on the extreme level. Without a way to prevent CD cheesing, it will only achieve one of those.

M+ caps out at +15. That's still perfectly doable with reasonably competent play without resorting to cheese tactics. So are mythic raids, for the most part.

And you're vastly overestimating the capability of players to afford several consecutive hours of time investment. Neither M+ nor mythic raiding really require that in the way this would.

That aside, LFR and below players make up 80%+ of the playerbase.

when we only did mechanar over and over because that was the fastest dungeons to clear.

You're seriously bringing an example of people trying to minimise time invested as one for people being willing to invest extra time into things?

[Thestrawman]

Yeah, thats what I meant. Waiting for cds does not only make you be able to reach a bit further into the extreme parts of the game. It makes you be able do about double your progress. It makes extreme pulls challenging and it makes challenging pulls trivial. So unless you get a decent perecentage of the rewards for only doing the trivial part of the tower, people will start thinking about waiting for cds once the challenging pulls start.

And if getting most of your reward from the trivial part of the system is how it works, I think the feature will wear out its novelty pretty fast. Both raiding and dungeons, the two main features in the game that are not just "time in, reward out" skinner boxes, have really well scaling reward systems. And if Torghast doesnt want to be the new world quest/islands/warfronts feature but more like the solo version of those two (and I am pretty sure that is the intent) it needs to be rewarding and fun on the trivial and the challenging level, while not being too cheesable on the extreme level. Without a way to prevent CD cheesing, it will only achieve one of those.

(Also additional time investment will not stop people above the lfr playerbase from using it, if it gives better rewards. See: every other time you could get better gear through torturing yourself with boredom. Like when we used to wait for cds before every pull before they invented cd resets in raids or when we only did mechanar over and over because that was the fastest dungeons to clear. Just wait and see if people will use an effective strategy is just not something any game developer sould ever think. Its like saying: lets see if people will pay their taxes voluntarily, because most of them probably know that streets need to be build. (Delayed Trigger warning for libertarians))

You obviously know nothing about Torghast. Half of the powers you get decrease the CD on major abilities or are tied to said CDs. So capping them to a certain number per floor would be counter intuitive to the design of Torghast.


The original argument was about waiting for bloodlust between each pack. I sat down and did some rough math on how long that would take to do with the number of floors of Torghast at the time and it ended up being four and a half days and to get through everything.

[huth]

The original argument was about waiting for bloodlust between each pack. I sat down and did some rough math on how long that would take to do with the number of floors of Torghast at the time and it ended up being four and a half days and to get through everything.

I imagine that's part of the reason Blizzard abandoned the whole thing. It's just way to unrealistic for anybody outside the most extreme to even consider it.

Also shows how few people actually bothered to do the math on whether this is an even remotely realistic issue.

[owbu]

If the rewards are purely cosmetic past a certain point, I don't see why waiting for CDs needs to be prevented for any practical reason. Lower skilled players would probably have to do that much earlier on anyway, and better players would only need to do it on the extreme end (at which point why are we even governing how edge-case content should be played).

I really don't see anything positive coming from trying to force people into a prescribed playstyle. Having the content is enough - people should be able to tackle it however they choose. If the novelty wears out for some people, then that's no problem. It doesn't make sense to force them to play the content they're no longer enjoying.

"governing how to play the game" is just another word for being a game designer. Thats their job. Look at objectively unfun ways of solving the puzzles you give your players and eliminate them. Which, like I said, can be achieved easily and without preventing any type of gameplay that anyone actually wants to do. Just make the cds usuable x times per floor. done. No negative side effects. No more incentives to play in an objectively worse way.

Because if you are trying to tell me that "waiting for 3 minutes between each pull is someones ideal way of playing, Im just gonna look at you funny and move on with my life.

[Elkfingers]

"governing how to play the game" is just another word for being a game designer. Thats their job. Look at objectively unfun ways of solving the puzzles you give your players and eliminate them. Which, like I said, can be achieved easily and without preventing any type of gameplay that anyone actually wants to do. Just make the cds usuable x times per floor. done. No negative side effects. No more incentives to play in an objectively worse way.

Because if you are trying to tell me that "waiting for 3 minutes between each pull is someones ideal way of playing, Im just gonna look at you funny and move on with my life.

In edge-case scenarios where the rewards don't impact gameplay? I think it's fine for there to be a certain point where you need both cooldowns and perfect execution in order to progress. You're not going to be able to eliminate incentives to play poorly - being able to overgear content is an incentive to play suboptimally, so is rotational complexity if someone decides they want to sacrifice output for an easy life.

Obviously the optimal way to play is to effectively use the tools available so as not to cheese. That's how I choose to play the game. That doesn't change the fact that if I wasn't that way inclined I could play in an objectively worse way on purpose.

Good design incentivises optimal play. You're confusing that with preventing suboptimal play, which isn't the same thing by a long stretch. Removing choices always feels bad.