Forsaken Friends

[Thage]

That's the story reason, but they also don't work as allies like they were in TBC because most of their underlying similarities are gone. They're both on the Horde, but the Forsaken still have a reason to be such - mutual convenience with the ruling entity. But both being chiefly defined by the state the Scourge left them in and taking up dubious methods to keep going while opposed by their former allies now only fit with the undead. The blood elves on the other hand were ultimately saved by the draenei and had all their cultural change reverted since it was no longer necessary. Ergo, they had next to nothing in common except shared history with Sylvanas.

Incidentally, that applies to the blood elves and everyone in the Horde up until the Nightborne came in. The Forsaken had interaction with the orcs and a good thing going with the goblins afterwards, but the blood elves had nothing to the point where Mists made their allegiance to the Horde being weird a plot point and set up a new reason for them to stay, without solving the thematic discrepancy that makes them fit much better as an Alliance race to this day.

I think that discrepancy works in their favor, generally. It helps underline the idea that the Horde is a more loose confederate of allies--if anything, from launch day in Vanilla, the idea of the Horde having a Warchief felt like a stranger inclusion than the Forsaken and, later, blood elves. Certainly, a central authority figure having final say in military matters to keep this coalition united and focused works for the Horde's power structure, but immediately beyond the Warchief itself the Horde has no real centralized power structure--nearly everything beyond that is multiracial coalitions where the leaders coordinate their own things and make sure they don't get in each others' way.

That was underlined by the Forsaken and blood elves, and later, the pandaren and Nightborne. The blood elves don't generally seem to care where their allies come from so long as Quel'Thalas is secure, but the last we've heard, Forsaken reinforcements are still integral to doing just that, so Sylvanas has had Lor'themar by the short hairs for some time; despite their relationship rapidly deteriorating after she forced his hand on providing forces for the Northrend campaign, it took until Garrosh began actively worsening the situation for his people for him to consider the Alliance again. The Horde was, well, a Horde, a decentralized, disorganized wave whose allies didn't necessarily trust one another so much as got along because the alternative was standing alone against several global superpowers including the Scourge and the Alliance.

While I desperately wish the conclusion was arrived at with more grace and better character development for all involved, and didn't seem to default to Baine getting tacit support to make unilateral decisions in regards to inducting new allies into the Horde, the current council we have is what I felt we should have had since Vanilla, especially as the Horde began inducting more allies of convenience/necessity who didn't so much buy into the brotherhood-and-honor vibes Thrall's refounded Horde had in Warcraft 3, where the three leaders were all personal friends.

[EbaumsTipster]

While I desperately wish the conclusion was arrived at with more grace and better character development for all involved, and didn't seem to default to Baine getting tacit support to make unilateral decisions in regards to inducting new allies into the Horde, the current council we have is what I felt we should have had since Vanilla, especially as the Horde began inducting more allies of convenience/necessity who didn't so much buy into the brotherhood-and-honor vibes Thrall's refounded Horde had in Warcraft 3, where the three leaders were all personal friends.

If they go through with a world revamp or Azeroth expansion that shows how much better the idea of a Horde Council suits the setting compared to one Warchief, I think a lot of people will be turned around on it. There doesn't seem to be THAT much pushback against the idea anyway, which surprises me.

People were freaking out about Baine/Thrall as Warchief and it looking like a mirror of Alliance, but I've seen less anger about the Council.

[Saltysquidoon]

It boggles my mind to this day people can't see the hilarious irony of having the alliance ruled by a blue warchief and the horde ruled by a council.

[EbaumsTipster]

It boggles my mind to this day people can't see the hilarious irony of having the alliance ruled by a blue warchief and the horde ruled by a council.

Yeah, that's the point. They swapped.

[Thage]

It boggles my mind to this day people can't see the hilarious irony of having the alliance ruled by a blue warchief and the horde ruled by a council.

In fairness, Alliance member nations still have more leeway in whether or not they support Alliance operations than the Horde did under a Warchief. Anduin had to put his plans in Zandalar on hold because Tyrande and Genn pulled support in favor of attacking Darkshore, and so far we haven't seen them suffer any reprisals for this, not even a verbal reprimand (he tried to persuade Tyrande to hold off, but when it was obvious she wouldn't, he authorized Alliance forces to be redirected to assist in the Darkshore warfront).

I also expect that in the Shadowlands pre-event, a military commander will be appointed in the Horde to fill the same role as the High King (and the Supreme Commander before it), where their authority is only in regards to directing the troops at their disposal and no unilateral political authority is present-and for all the memes, neither Anduin nor Varian before him have/had unilateral political authority. What they enjoy/ed is/was a large amount of support among the other leaders of the Alliance; we're starting to see the cracks in this with Tyrande and Genn pushing back and getting off scott-free despite potentially jeopardizing the attack on Dazar'Alor by pushing back the timetable and increasing the chances of the Horde uncovering the attack plan and defending accordingly.

[Saltysquidoon]

In fairness, Alliance member nations still have more leeway in whether or not they support Alliance operations than the Horde did under a Warchief. Anduin had to put his plans in Zandalar on hold because Tyrande and Genn pulled support in favor of attacking Darkshore, and so far we haven't seen them suffer any reprisals for this, not even a verbal reprimand (he tried to persuade Tyrande to hold off, but when it was obvious she wouldn't, he authorized Alliance forces to be redirected to assist in the Darkshore warfront).

Here's the thing though, the bit about Genn and Tyrande refusing to give anduin support is great. It's just a shame it never happened before BFA, because that's what the alliance always should have been the bigger faction bogged down by politics and bureaucracy while the horde was the leaner agile faction because of the warchief.
The creation of the position of high king was literally just pure laziness/cost-cutting on metzan's behalf so they didn't have to write multiple faction leaders every patch discussing matters for the alliance.

My issue with the position of high king and the horde council is that they needlessly impune the writer's bias on the faction and weaken their distinctiveness as a result.
Meztan's ageing 'badass' metal/rocker mentality of "What if Varian's like a warrior but his sword is like two swords (but not like Darth maul) and also he's like a gladiator like Conan but good and also maybe a wolf shaman(?)" Inserting that into the lawful boring alliance.
Compared to the new team's nontoxic equality and representation push of giving the "badass metal/noble savage faction" a goddamn council of equals.

[Ardenaso]

@Ardenaso

Them having said races in the first place makes them bad representatives of Lordaeron, since Lordaeron becomes secondary to their identity. They're fixing the Plaguelands because they're nice dudes more so than out of patriotism or connection to the land.

Bad? Why?

I'm still thinking of a better narrative that is where you put Calia, Forsaken, Lillian, Leonid, Alonsus, Argent/Brotherhood, and Turalyon in one room

[Soon-TM]

I'm still thinking of a better narrative that is where you put Calia, Forsaken, Lillian, Leonid, Alonsus, Argent/Brotherhood, and Turalyon in one room

Because that would effectively turn the Forsaken into humans with a skin condition. Not that the current narrative isn't pointing there anyway, but still...

[Combatbutler]

Bad? Why?

I'm still thinking of a better narrative that is where you put Calia, Forsaken, Lillian, Leonid, Alonsus, Argent/Brotherhood, and Turalyon in one room

I'd preffered the forsaken creating the equivalent of their own cult of the damned, with the living hoping to be elevated to forsaken status, having kids etc. thus creating a sustainable undead focused society, instead of trying to regain their humanity.

[Molvonos]

No, initially it was meant to be Scourge filling that spot. That'd have been a laugh and a half once the current devs made Kel'thuzad a champion of love and peace.

Eh? Source?

I played in closed Beta, kept up with all the news n' shit and never heard this tidbit.