Wake of Ashes should gets its CD reduced for 9.0

[Celvira]

Pretty self-explanatory title. With Wake of Ashes giving us 3 HP in SL, the ability should be reverted to Legion's 30 second CD instead of BfA's 45 seconds. I understand WoA got a damage buff in SL, but Ret is still on the lower-end of melee dps (especially if a fight involves any movement), so reducing its CD would likely do little to upset class balancing, while also having the added bonus of making the spec's rotation more smooth and enjoyable.

Please Blizzard. Outside of specific talent choices and burst windows, Ret is one of the slowest specs in BfA, needing a sizable amount of haste to make its rotation feel fun and satisfying. =/

[Faesroll]

Shadowlands isn't even out yet and you're complaining about our damage already? And ret rotation is a lot smoother already with a lot of abilities added baseline in SL.

[Tyze]

Pretty self-explanatory title. With Wake of Ashes giving us 3 HP in SL, the ability should be reverted to Legion's 30 second CD instead of BfA's 45 seconds. I understand WoA got a damage buff in SL, but Ret is still on the lower-end of melee dps (especially if a fight involves any movement), so reducing its CD would likely do little to upset class balancing, while also having the added bonus of making the spec's rotation more smooth and enjoyable.

Please Blizzard. Outside of specific talent choices and burst windows, Ret is one of the slowest specs in BfA, needing a sizable amount of haste to make its rotation feel fun and satisfying. =/

Source?
https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T25_Raid.html
Shows otherwise

[Itori]

I honestly wish they would do away with holy power on ret and use it for holy and be an "oh shit" resource

[Celvira]

Source?
https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T25_Raid.html
Shows otherwise

Take your gear off and smack a dummy with ret. Without the stat boosts and procs from your gear, our core gameplay is noticeably slow, with several gaps in our rotation while we wait for our cooldowns to go off the GCD.

[Tyze]

Take your gear off and smack a dummy with ret. Without the stat boosts and procs from your gear, our core gameplay is noticeably slow, with several gaps in our rotation while we wait for our cooldowns to go off the GCD.

Ret and all other specs too

[Unholyground]

I honestly wish they would do away with holy power on ret and use it for holy and be an "oh shit" resource

I think HP worked out well as a secondary resource, it would be cool if spending HP gave you some kind of small stacking haste boost or something like that to add to the feeling of being a zealous warrior or the light.

[Poundcake]

Source?
https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T25_Raid.html
Shows otherwise

Look at actual logs not simcraft. Rets the second worst dps in the game

[Celvira]

Ret and all other specs too

That is not necessarily true. Some specs (such as Fury Warrior and Fire Mage) had a smooth playstyle immediately when BfA went live. Other specs (such as Ret and Frost Death Knight) had a noticeable gap in their rotations when legendary item effects deactivated.

8.3 Ret may be fine, but 8.0 Ret was noticeably slower and clunkier at launch. Classes should feel good at all levels, not just at their peak.

[apelsinjuice]

Look at actual logs not simcraft. Rets the second worst dps in the game

rets will forever be the worst dps in the game, blizzard have no intentions of chaning that

[xxcloud417xx]

Pretty self-explanatory title. With Wake of Ashes giving us 3 HP in SL, the ability should be reverted to Legion's 30 second CD instead of BfA's 45 seconds. I understand WoA got a damage buff in SL, but Ret is still on the lower-end of melee dps (especially if a fight involves any movement), so reducing its CD would likely do little to upset class balancing, while also having the added bonus of making the spec's rotation more smooth and enjoyable.

Please Blizzard. Outside of specific talent choices and burst windows, Ret is one of the slowest specs in BfA, needing a sizable amount of haste to make its rotation feel fun and satisfying. =/

Do you have current access to the Alpha to make claims that Ret will be slow, and that our rotation will be boring?

I'm not a fan of the 2 Holy Power loss (nerfs never feel good), but at the same time I'm looking at the talent shuffle and anticipate a really proc-heavy rotation that'll keep us pressing buttons. Also, the fact that Holy Shock is baseline now, we get a 5th Holy Power generator that will be even affected by our Mastery since it does Holy Damage (we may actually just leave Crusader Strike alone quite a bit now, who knows).

Consider that running Empyrean Power will give us free procs of Divine Storm, and then running Divine Purpose (which was moved down from the bottom row) will allow our spenders to proc spenders, there's a solid chance we could see some insane proc chains of Empyrean Power and Divine Purpose without having to spend a single Holy Power. Then add to that the fact that we can still grab Crusade on top of this, we have the same hasty, bursty CD we've been running since Legion, and we get to run Proc talents on top of it. There's a very good chance that this is the optimal build for SL, and if it is we could see a pretty solid increase in Ret's smoothness and speed.

[Gotural]

Take your gear off and smack a dummy with ret. Without the stat boosts and procs from your gear, our core gameplay is noticeably slow, with several gaps in our rotation while we wait for our cooldowns to go off the GCD.

Why is that a bad thing?

If a spec in the game presses half as much buttons but every ability used deal twice as much damage it's neutral. The only thing that counts is the DPS.

We can even say that the less abilities a spec has to use (in terms of GCD), the better the spec is, for three reasons :

- Less brain usage => easier to perform at 100%.

- Less vulnerable to mechanics / mobility => if all of your abilities have huge cooldowns and that the boss / the enemy player teleports around and you need to chase it, you will more likely only waste melee hits instead of abilities which are recharging. A GCD capped spec is going to lose more DPS as soon as it isn't able to hit something in melee.

- More times to use utility spells => IMO the most important. If you are GCD capped as a Ret, it means that everytime you want to use an instant FoL, a HoJ, a blessing or whatever, you lose DPS. On the contrary if there are small gaps from times to times, you can fit these utility spells in the gaps and be able to use your full kit without losing DPS.

#SmallGapsLivesMatter

[Hyral]

Why is that a bad thing?

Because sitting there doing nothing is not fun.

If a spec in the game presses half as much buttons but every ability used deal twice as much damage it's neutral. The only thing that counts is the DPS.
- Less brain usage => easier to perform at 100%.

Wanting cooldowns to be readjusted to make a fluid rotation implies damage would be retuned. Also that's not even how it works for Ret, the damage is loaded somewhat into finishers and mostly into wings, which means most of the time you are not hitting for much and you are doing it very slowly, I mean CS still hits for less than a white swing to this day. The OP is talking about enjoyment, a rotation where you are staring at the game with little or nothing to do for large periods of time because it's not the end of the expac so your stats can't fix it yet is not enjoyable. Oh and the idea of making a spec boring to play so people with "less brain capacity" can play it is insulting to everyone you are alluding to.

- More times to use utility spells => IMO the most important. If you are GCD capped as a Ret, it means that everytime you want to use an instant FoL, a HoJ, a blessing or whatever, you lose DPS. On the contrary if there are small gaps from times to times, you can fit these utility spells in the gaps and be able to use your full kit without losing DPS.

Using utility hardly, if ever, aligns with gaps in rotation and rarely even happens in PvE. If you wait until a gap in your rotation to use one of your lifesaving cooldowns or a heal odds are it was worthless. If you interrupt your rotation to use it then you are making a disjointed rotation even wose now. The myth of gaps in rotation designed to use utility hasn't even been brought up by the devs since... Cata I think. Other specs can use their utility without being badly designed. No reason Ret should remain that way.

[Gotural]

Because sitting there doing nothing is not fun.

Subjective. Imo pressing abilities every GCD feels more like Diablo than WoW and is not fun.

The OP is talking about enjoyment, a rotation where you are staring at the game with little or nothing to do for large periods of time because it's not the end of the expac so your stats can't fix it yet is not enjoyable.

Again this is a matter of preferences. And I said "small gaps from times to times" which is different from "staring at the game with little or nothing to do for large periods of time".

I mean CS still hits for less than a white swing to this day.

Don't you think increasing the cooldown of the abilities could lead to CS doing more damage?

Oh and the idea of making a spec boring to play so people with "less brain capacity" can play it is insulting to everyone you are alluding to.

I alluded to no one in particular and insulted no one. Everyone can benefit from having a less intense DPS rotation which allows one to focus more on mechanics and prevent carpal tunnel syndroms. I would like you to not distort what I'm saying. Thank you and have a nice day.

[Kaver]

Pretty self-explanatory title. With Wake of Ashes giving us 3 HP in SL, the ability should be reverted to Legion's 30 second CD instead of BfA's 45 seconds. I understand WoA got a damage buff in SL, but Ret is still on the lower-end of melee dps (especially if a fight involves any movement), so reducing its CD would likely do little to upset class balancing, while also having the added bonus of making the spec's rotation more smooth and enjoyable.

Please Blizzard. Outside of specific talent choices and burst windows, Ret is one of the slowest specs in BfA, needing a sizable amount of haste to make its rotation feel fun and satisfying. =/

You need to have a better argument than “it might feel better”. Otherwise you can demand everything. I want to have permanent wings because it might feel better...

I’m not saying that a cd reduction on woa is unreasonable but you need to present some numbers on why it make sense. It cannot just be based on “feel” and guessing.

- - - Updated - - -

That is not necessarily true. Some specs (such as Fury Warrior and Fire Mage) had a smooth playstyle immediately when BfA went live. Other specs (such as Ret and Frost Death Knight) had a noticeable gap in their rotations when legendary item effects deactivated.

8.3 Ret may be fine, but 8.0 Ret was noticeably slower and clunkier at launch. Classes should feel good at all levels, not just at their peak.

What you’re implying here is wrong. Most specs in the game felt like shit in the beginning of BFA due to low haste and lost abilities. And Fire mage was definitely not a smooth spec. People complained about this for most classes.

[apelsinjuice]

gaps between abilties or not does not matter seeing how ret is still the top 3 lowest dps in the game, blizzard making you play slower with more gaps between the damage abilties will not somehow magicilly increase ret paladins dps

[Orbos]

This has probably been mentioned by WoA got a 50% damage buff to make up for the lower holypower generation. Although i would personally have some of that damage moved into Crusader strike so it can hit harder than an auto attack. Idk about you but in my opinion, CS is probably the single most unsatisfying ability to use in the game right now.

[dcc626]

rets will forever be the worst dps in the game, blizzard have no intentions of chaning that

yup. worst, along with every other spec (if you ask people who play it)

[Tyris Flare]

This has probably been mentioned by WoA got a 50% damage buff to make up for the lower holypower generation. Although i would personally have some of that damage moved into Crusader strike so it can hit harder than an auto attack. Idk about you but in my opinion, CS is probably the single most unsatisfying ability to use in the game right now.

I love casting it like 300 times in dungeons and having it be like 1-2% of total dps.

[apelsinjuice]

yup. worst, along with every other spec (if you ask people who play it)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../24#dataset=95

only better than ww, outlaw and unholy dk