Did people expect WoW to keep growing forever or something?

[WowIsDead64]

Was this another "remove lfr" complaint or did you have some other explanation to what these steps back were?

Well, it's simple. Fist of all, Cata was return to "raid or die" ideology. Some later xpacks, like Legion and BFA are return to (literally) Classic model, i.e. "MMOs are about grind" model. And since Cata they haven't been adding permanent features - it was about "let's cut this and replace it with that, that will be cut in a next xpack". LFR was last permanent feature in this game. All future ones were about "we don't have budget to support this, so let's just cut it in a next xpack, so players, who like this feature, will just quit".

[God Save The King]

Well, in the heyday of 2010 and 11.5M subs, they did go out to say that 70% of WoW players never reached max level. I think that sort of explains what kind of players the majority of the playerbase was.

I bet that number is much smaller now that WoW is not the mainstream zeitgeist anymore. This is also why talking about pure sub numbers (and that fucking graphic that always gets posted) is so meaningless. The whole "the game was so good when we had 11.5M subs"-ruhruh is a bit silly in the light of "70% of those players never actually made it past lvl 10".

It also explains why they'd want some other metric than subs to track the success of their products (and also why measuring player engagement is the thing today).

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/b...ast-level-10_1

Ah, that would make sense then. If I recall, buying the game back then also gave you 2 months of free gametime, so each person who tried the game likely got counted for 2 months in that number. Possibly three if they were padding their numbers a bit (i.e. you joined on October 15, so your sub expired Dec 15, they counted you for Oct, Nov, and Dec numbers). They could even double count you in quarters if you happened to span two of them.

[Schattenlied]

And it's FUN.

I'm gonna disagree, ESO PvP is trash, it's just a oneshot fest, absolutely not fun at all.

[God Save The King]

I'm gonna disagree, ESO PvP is trash, it's just a oneshot fest, absolutely not fun at all.

I agree. I got to a solid CP level, had decent enough gear, and just got obliterated in PvP. I wasn't a super fast melee or powerful ranged, so I just got decimated. I played a tank so I thought I'd live a bit longer. Nope.

[Kithelle]

Every time there's talk of WoW's massive playerbase decline since Cataclysm days, people pop up with:

- THE reason wow lost players
- THIS is the main reason wow lost players
- IF BLIZZARD HADN'T DONE THIS...

Are people really that oblivious to the amount of MMOs from late 2000s onward which do some or many things better than WoW, and even if they don't gather 12 million players at any one time, all these games combined will chip away at WoW's stagnant gameplay model? For free?

Were you really expecting 24 million players active by the time WoD dropped, doing the same exhausted formula of level -> grind gear -> raid or PVP, in an ever-breaking array of PVP balance patches and a story that's all over the place?

All this for a sub fee to top it all off, when ESO and TOR offer 20x better stories and writing for free?

WoW is pretty much a Korean MMO, all you do is collect shit, and do nothing with it. This has been WoW's formula since pre-BC, when people would just stand in the middle of Stormwind or IF in their epic gear having everyone marvel at their dedication to farm gold and pots every night of the week to afford raiding.

How were people expecting this formula to retain and keep gathering millions of players? WoW's losing players because it gets boring after every expansion release, the writing after Warcraft 3 remains sub-par and the gameplay is either too repetitive or too frustrating, and other games offer much better alternatives, and chip away at its playerbase little by little. Mostly for free or a small one time purchase.

Have you ever played a MMO? All MMOs are about leveling...grinding gear...and raiding or pvp. If games didn't add new grinding and raids there would be nothing new to do and everyone would quit.

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I'm gonna disagree, ESO PvP is trash, it's just a oneshot fest, absolutely not fun at all.

Well if ganking has taught us anything it's that people love destroying people in a split second...

[Enan1981]

I think they just have one more in them (MAYBE) after Shadowlands... And theyll find something for closure.

[munkeyinorbit]

mmos when out of style when generation born between 1980-1990 finished their universities and focus on life instead computer games.

there was a point in time - before FB became popular when mmorpgs were platform connecting lonely teenagers/young adoults - but this died now that everyone is accustomed to internet.

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milions moved on - and are much more interested in investments in their lives instead passing hundreds of hours monthly into games.

its really simple math - peopel who were 15 around time wow came out are 31 now and games are not even on their radar of interest on scale bigger then "wasting " few hours a week every couple of months just to chill .

The average age of a wow player was 26. This blows your theory of teens and college age people being the main market.

The reason why wow isn't as popular is because it isn't as fun anymore.

[Arakkar]

WoW was king when MMORPGs were trending, but new trends have popped since: MOBAs, card games, looter-shooters, battle royales, auto-battlers.

When it comes to MMORPGs we can lie to ourselves and say games like ESO or FF14 are faring better, but that will be a lie; WoW is still king of MMORPGs, just not king of online games.

[Wedny22]

Are you really this dumb?!?! Its simple, lots and lots of people like wows gameplay and looks..why change a winning team?
That's why you can't compete with wow, since all the players that like this gameplay, play WoW.
For me: i tried the Hentai Simulator, got sick of the looks...
I tried ESO..why play a Skyrim i can't mod? For me that game is just..well
I played Rift, but that's Dead.
I loved star wars, not the people i played with..

You play what you like..but asking why people play wow on a wow forum is Just dumb, sorry

[Tuor]

Despite how anecdotal the claim is - I just typed in "mmo" on google and the first suggestion was mmochampion

I suppose it depends were you live, i tried again, and it came on 4th page.

[Qnubi]

This topic is excellent and I also wonder what people expect. I think it has to do with the dogma of constant growth and progress. Everything MUST ALWAYS at all costs grow and expand. If it doesn't it must mean it SUCKS. It haunts not only gaming but also finances and even social relationships. Nothing is allowed to stagnate or even decline, it somehow means it is a failure, yet logically everlasting growth is impossible because it would mean there is no competition and endless room for improvement. There is a limited amount of potential users, so there is a hard-cap, and if you expected every single gamer to play WoW at some point your delusion is as vast as the universe.

[Pengalor]

OP's post is a complete strawman. No one ever expected WoW to never lose subs, the point they were making is that it's losing more subs than it should be because Blizzard keeps making decisions that push people away. Also, you fail to mention that another MMO with a sub fee is thriving (FF14) because they aren't constantly making terrible decisions or failing to use some foresight.

[crusadernero]

I think they just have one more in them (MAYBE) after Shadowlands... And theyll find something for closure.

Probably been said since they announced Cata. I cant think of one reason for why ActiBlizz would stop creating xpacs for wow. Its the biggest cashcow they have. All the other IPs they have aint near the success of wow.

If wow ever ends its because they somehow managed to create a new, long lasting game to print money from.

[Gorsameth]

No, I don't think people expected WoW to grow forever. What does?

Ever since I joined here, it was more about confirming what you like or hate about the game.

If you like the game and numbers grow: "It is a good game and it is proven by more people playing it"

If you like the game and numbers shrink: "It is not unexpected, the game gets old and people find other things to do. It is just the product cycle"

If you dislike the game and numbers grow: "Blizzard lies with the numbers and if they don't lie it just shows that flies likes shit. Only because Mc Donalds sells a lot of burgers doesn't mean the food is good"

If you dislike the game and numbers shrink: "It is because the game is bad"

And then there are the people inbetween who can actually see that maybe it is a bit of all of the above at certain times. And a lot more influencing fluctuation of players.



Now if only you could supply numbers. But I have a nagging felling that even if WoW and FFXIV had the EXACT same number of subs (say 1,5 million for the sake of argument), you would say the same thing. Because people put different expectations towards them. WoW once had 12 million subs, so now having 1,5 million is million is "losing more subs than it should" (whatever that means....how many subs "should" an MMO lose?). FFXIV having 1,5 million subs is "thriving" because it never had a lot of subs to start with.

Sadly nobody has any numbers directly related to the games. Or does FFXIV release sub numbers? I think they would if the numbers were awesome. Why did only Blizzard get shit for not releasing sub numbers?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comm...illion_active/

This unofficial count would put them at 1 million subs a year ago. Think its pretty safe to say WoW is still above 1mil.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comm...illion_active/

This unofficial count would put them at 1 million subs a year ago. Think its pretty safe to say WoW is still above 1mil.

If that count was and still is to be believed, that should be a very worrisome number for Blizzard.

[Sansnom]

well didnt the 100m count the trials also?if it did then the 100m means nothing just marginal interest in wow,by that logic we should count all private servers,wow proly had 1bilion people atleast try those

I don't know if they included trial accounts. 100 million real account is possible. People did recreate their accounts after ban. Given the number of years WoW has been around. Trial account is also relatively new. Did they post the 100 m before or after trial were announced? Would that many people create accounts during that period when trial were available.

[Schattenlied]

Well if ganking has taught us anything it's that people love destroying people in a split second...

Those same people don't like being destroyed just as quick though, and that's all PvP is there, they who lands their hit first wins.

ESO could use resilience, lol.

[devilzxlin]

most mmorpg can not live 15+ years.world of warcraft is already a big success.

[Irian]

I just don't agree with your conclusion that the game had to decline when it did.

Yes there was an inevitability that the game would've slowly declined after the popularity spike, but the game also massively blew it with WoD and BfA and seriously put people off. That's not the fault of the players, or age, it was a combination of really bad decisions from a game developer that led to a downward decline of a game.

[pinkz]

i'm the last of 14 IRL friends that still plays WOW, but i have no life. friends that quit had numerous reasons into MOP, WOD, and Legion, and when they tried to come back in Legion/BFA then requit for other reasons such as:

- too much changes, squishing, etc. to the point they longer identify with the game
- too much time required, mandatory chores and work than they have time for
- too many systems (from those who tried Legion and/or BFA)
- overwhelmed by catch up
they did like the gold tokens, wishing it was in the game earlier.

some of the current top streamers did WOW doom and gloom youtube videos largely starting in CATA, and continued claiming maybe one more expac after MOP, WOD, etc. now have changed their tune. and saying like 5 to 10 more years of expacs. blizzard said many years ago when there were worries about population, they would keep making expacs as long as the demand was there

collections tie players to a game, WOW is not the only MMO that has players locked down because of the investments made building collections, titles, ranks, currency, etc. this occurs in MMOs that were before WOW and still exist to this day with players holding on.

some call it addiction, imo blizzard messing around too much with the game helped break the addiction for the majority, making the game painful to continue. i agree with many, only blizzard can kill WOW, and they are doing a outstanding job at it