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  1. #61
    It fascinates me when people believe that war is a central theme of wow and cannot be replaced. Strategy games were about the war, but wow is, at best, war-adjacent. Both "fourth war" and whatever it was in pandaria were pathetic in both scale and execution. And the main reason for that is painfully obvious - neither side can be allowed to win, so the conclusion always has to be overall neutral. And a war that has no real consequences hardly makes for an engaging story. I'm not trying to put down writers here, it's just the limitations of an MMO. But what I can't forgive are repeated attempts to write a war story in a game that can't support it.

    For a decent war narrative to take place, players have to not be directly involved. If players were neutral as a whole, but were free to choose their aliegences in said war, then it could have consequences, without having to constantly worry about what that means for players of the loosing faction.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah, pretty much. Ooooooor

    Kerri, eh, redemption story. But I'll be honest with myself, I think that theory is getting less likely the more info we get.
    Part of me always feels like they might make that happen.

    They've spent so much time making Sylvanas into a bigger villain than she already was after Teldrassil. They even pinned Wrath Gate on her years after the fact, despite nobody asking or desiring that.

    Reeks of "WE CONVINCED YOU SHE WAS EVIL BUT PLOT TWIST SHE WAS ACTUALLY NOT ALL THAT EVIL."

    And yes, I think Blizzard writers could be incompetent enough to think people would gobble that up despite it making no sense.

  3. #63
    The Patient Motso's Avatar
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    There really is no solid reason for the factions to be split as they are at this point beyond 'thats how it is'. People can and have argued for ages about the minutia of the faction divide. The fact of the matter is that it was a core concept at launch that devs are unwilling or unable to move away from.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Developers say it's core to the game.
    See this is the response I was looking for because I also agree that would be the card developers would pull to justify continuing the faction war. But they can keep the "war in Warcraft" and have peace between the Horde and Alliance. With the war ended, there would be no need for "war mode" anymore. That said, we can't remove a core aspect of WoW that has been around since its incarnation, that being world pvp. So instead, why not introduce two new factions? 'The Rebellion' and 'The Resistance', one for the Horde and the other for the Alliance.

    Two groups formed out of their hatred for Horde/Alliance that oppose the peace between the two factions. Instead of enabling war mode, by enabling "Join the Rebellion!" or "Join the Resistance!" you go from Hostile to Exalted (reputation serves no purpose other than lore), become hostile to "opposing" faction players, and can interact with NPCs of your faction in their respective hubs that are now the locations you use to purchase PvP gear, pick up CTA quests, and redeem your weekly chest.

    This simply becomes the new PvP mode and operates almost exactly like war mode. You're undercover of course, so the Horde/Alliance are none the wiser to your activities outside of major cities, but you may get a whisper from time to time from loyalists who give you their support.

    The Horde/Alliance know of these factions of course, but do not cast blame upon each other for they expected rebellion. Perhaps certain events could occur in which the Horde/Alliance try to stop you, acting as new warfront or bounty quest lore.

    Anyway, just a thought.

  5. #65
    Alotta interesting thoughts on this topic, and I can see some for some against and some argueing the devs have said its a core feature of wow.

    Heres my take on the faction war personally.

    Do I like the concept of two armies fighting each other over land/resources and moral dilemma's, yes.

    Do I think blizzards writing team and design team has really succeeded in achieving this in the past or present, possibly.

    Id say MoP was the only real time the Faction War actually worked. The Honor/No Honor story of BFA was a bit too one sided and didnt really show what the Alliance was like during this dilemma enough. In MoP they at least showed some elements of the Alliance not being wholey "team good guy".

    The problem is that no matter how many times they seem to try this formulae they cop out, mid expansion they change the theme and 90% of the time it seems to be an over arching bigger evil (old gods twice in a row ironically) in order to resolve the matter.

    This cop out method is pretty bad story narrative for a focus that should have taken its sweet time. Id also argue that not every patch needed a raid or a dungeon, there needed to be patches that were entirley story driven content for the sake of having more narrative around the faction war, more character development storylines and cycles around that.

    They tried, Jaina definatley got the boatload of char development this expansion with chars like Baine and a few others getting some moments to shine, but the over-all problem was the war never really... happened, it started, never finished, I agree with posters on that much.

    Heres my argument as to why the faction wars demise wouldnt hurt the game at this point:

    The Faction War literally interferes with the story, some posters have also said this. It interjects any real moments that chars can grow or shine or that individual races can get storylines entirley focused on them. Example:

    When was the last time you saw a dwarfcentric story in WoW?

    When was the last time the Mulgore Tauren got major char development, beyond heritidge armor?

    Theres alotta lore and races that really need some development and love but are being neglected cause "Faction war, only thing important horde evil alliance good ruh ruh".

    Alliance needed some genuinley dark and edgy moments, and sure Tyrande/Genn might deliver them but frankly I feel like they'd be overshadowed at this point by other players. To be honest if your gonna commit, commit. Make Tyrande/Genn/Alleria/Admiral Rogers/Turalyon and Moira into some kind of uninon of more extreme elements of Alliance characters. All of them have evidently shown their willingness to take more extreme answers to problems and the Alliance needed its own Garrosh or three for a while now.

    But the Horde also needs to loose something of significant worth, the Alliance lost a capital city, and two zones, Darnassus, Teldrassil and Darkshore, the Horde lost Tristfal Glades and Undercity (The latter by its own hand).

    Really if your talking on the idea of a faction war that works and makes sense, its time the Alliance commited some serious war crimes, morally abhorent things that would force the war to come back to play. Blizzard needs some balls here and needs to stop being shy about doing some seriously dark things in wow, considering in WC3 the game was alot closer to a dark fantasy than a high fantasy based on the grim theme's of its narrative.

    But the games shift in dynamic has been too light hearted, this whole Shadowlands expansion feels as much a filler as Warlords was to Legion, it feels timed in a way thats meant to distract you from the fact BFA was just... well, a poorly written great idea.

    Again, my stance is this, if your gonna remove the faction war for good, then commit, we could get some pretty good individual character storylines, and maybe a mercenary system for world pvp representing sub factions of the groups.

    Meanwhile if your gonna focus on the faction war, then Shadowlands needs to carry on where BFA left off and 9.1 onwards should be entirley on the faction war bringing chaos to the realm of death.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    It should be dead and buried but sadly it'll be trotted out again in an expansion or two after SL so the developers can "bring the war back to Warcraft"
    ITT Lore obsessed (and it's really shitty Lore too) PvE carebears who don't understand that the faction conflict is central to the game

    Factions should NEVER be removed from WoW

    If you want a game without player factions where everyone holds hands and sings kumbaya go play a different MMO
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  7. #67
    Conflict motivates characters and drives them to action.

    If we were collecting bear butts every expansion and only collecting bear butts it might get a little repetitive, so as much as people may bemoan how bored they may be of the faction conflict "right now," it's useful to keep in mind at other points in other expansions the pendulum has swung in the other direction and people have clamored for the game to "bring the war back in Warcraft."

    There are points where people will want and even *crave* for the faction conflict - it doesn't have to be now, it can be later, and it can be put on the back burner for a while until player moods simmer until they're ready to boil over and have it again. But until then, the faction conflict should always be in a state where it can be seen as available and not something pulled out of nowhere so it's nice to have little breadcrumbs that eventually signal that a faction conflict can come - and also to feed the desire for it. In stories like WoW, scarcity can breed desire - especially when in those rare moments it's done well, people will want it because they desire a quality and varied experience. And to that end, we shouldn't just sit in the faction conflict indefinitely, it needs time to breathe - but it shouldn't go away to the point where we can't expect it to come back again.

  8. #68
    Old God Syegfryed's Avatar
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    No, one shit expansion with terrible writers is not the thing to completely end something so iconic of the game who can be worked on better, as different sidequests and used as secondary plot device

    the problem is how they try to put as the main theme and failed miserably at that, Cata faction war was secondary and was pretty good, is something to be simple, about war and killing the enemy, we don't need deep meaningless moral lessons in the fantasy wargame

    you don't cut off your arm because you injured your hand, just saying
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-06-06 at 08:37 AM.

  9. #69
    Definitely.

    Its boring, inconsistent and makes characters act like utter idiots.

    Blizzards writing is going downhill for years so people saying it was just one bad expansion about faction war better prepare for more disappointment.

    Don't remove PvP, just remove lore nonsense.

    In fact, they should just create one expansion without any lore at all just to be safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    except she was, she literally was experimenting on prisoners men, women, children, soldier, and civilian,
    to try and make a stronger and stronger plague.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Your not gonna win trying to make this one realize the truth.
    Your have better luck curing Corona with lemon and lime juice

  10. #70
    It's WARcraft for a reason.

  11. #71
    If both sides agreed and kicked the forsaken out that could be a start.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    ITT Lore obsessed (and it's really shitty Lore too) PvE carebears who don't understand that the faction conflict is central to the game

    Factions should NEVER be removed from WoW

    If you want a game without player factions where everyone holds hands and sings kumbaya go play a different MMO
    Yeah, no.

    Faction has been handled so poorly that some people, like me, want it to stop. Obviously, Blizzard won't give us an interesting story or plot regarding that topic: Every faction conflict will resolve in a tie because of gameplay and symmetry, or because another existential threat has decided to join the party and everyone need to band together to vanquish it.

    Personally, I think ending the faction war would be much more interesting, since it would break that paradigm. The war could continue, but at a much smaller scale. While people at the top would sign peace treaties and trying to patch things up, small skirmishes could start at strategic locations, locals could riot or start being belligerent because they feel they're being treated unfairly compared to the other faction. Or maybe more stupid quests, like a troll settlements shooting down Wildhammers gryphon riders cause they're tired of all the bird shit they leave on the ground. I don't know. I just think it would be an interesting dynamic, that could mirror real life events (like the EU and corona debacle).

    All I know is, I'm sick of watching the Faction war tango. It's an all act. It's not real. And I hope Blizzard will move on about it.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    It's WARcraft for a reason.
    This is still, by far, THE dumbest attempt at an argument against uniting the factions I've ever seen on these forums and it annoys me to no end that people still mindlessly parrot it.

    Did the fight against the Scourge not constitute a war?

    Did the fight against the Burning Legion not count as war?

    The Twilight's Hammer? The Old Gods? The Void Lords? Nope! It's only WarCraft if it's Alliance vs. the Horde, obviously!

    Someone better ring up Blizzard and tell them that they should have changed the name of WarCraft III to something else when they remastered it, because obviously it doesn't count as a WarCraft game when the Alliance spends more time fighting the Scourge, the Horde spends more time fighting the Sentinels, and in the end, almost everyone teams up to defend the world from the Legion!
    "Do you truly believe your petty squabbles to be of any significance? In a universe containing entities capable of consuming entire stars, of even bringing low your vaunted 'laws of physics'? Humanity has existed for less than an eye blink in cosmic reckoning, and in far less time it shall return to dust. None shall mourn its passing. None shall even know you existed."

  14. #74
    It needs to die as a central element of the story.

    World of Warcraft is the absolute worst game to do a faction war, because NOBODY WANTS TO BE ON THE LOSING SIDE and since you have people playing both sides, none of them can really "win". Can you even imagine how upset for instance Horde players would be if BfA ended with Alliance straight up winning the war?

    It would be a shitshow and that's why both times we got a "faction war expansion", it all went pretty much the same, i.e. one faction's leader was written to be a villain, so that his faction could rebel against him and thus everyone could theoretically win in the end.

    And if they do another faction war then it's going to be the same thing.
    Last edited by Sarethion; 2020-06-06 at 09:09 AM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWIsThatAPotato View Post
    Yeah, no.

    Faction has been handled so poorly that some people, like me, want it to stop. Obviously, Blizzard won't give us an interesting story or plot regarding that topic: Every faction conflict will resolve in a tie because of gameplay and symmetry, or because another existential threat has decided to join the party and everyone need to band together to vanquish it.

    Personally, I think ending the faction war would be much more interesting, since it would break that paradigm. The war could continue, but at a much smaller scale. While people at the top would sign peace treaties and trying to patch things up, small skirmishes could start at strategic locations, locals could riot or start being belligerent because they feel they're being treated unfairly compared to the other faction. Or maybe more stupid quests, like a troll settlements shooting down Wildhammers gryphon riders cause they're tired of all the bird shit they leave on the ground. I don't know. I just think it would be an interesting dynamic, that could mirror real life events (like the EU and corona debacle).

    All I know is, I'm sick of watching the Faction war tango. It's an all act. It's not real. And I hope Blizzard will move on about it.
    I will never understand why anyone cares about this game's poorly written lore. You play the game... for the story? I don't get that and I never will. I play this game to murder horde, full stop.

    Let me tell you something, there is some quality storytelling in WoW but it has nothing to do with what Tyrande or Sylvanas or any major character is up to.

    The Pamela Redpath quests in the Plaguelands? That was decent storytelling.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    BFA is, for the most part universally agreed to be a pretty shallow, poorly done and heavily rushed expansion with some interesting story idea's and utterly abysmal executions of them.

    In terms of gameplay, lore, and storytelling we have all but reached a point where besides the likes of Tyrande and Genn there are no faction specific characters who have some kinda grudge against the other.

    With that in mind... is it time, to consider cross-faction and the removal of said factions, now that there is basically almost no reason at all for another war again?

    Or would you truly feel that wow needs more faction divergance still?

    What would your reasons be?

    Or do you agree with the statement, that the time has come, for factions, to die.
    This is real reason, why lore in Wow doesn't matter at all. After all that BFA faction war story Blizzard just tells us "just forget it, like nothing is happened, cuz we still need motivation for PVP and our sweet railed story with zero moral choices, so no things, like merging factions and non-linear story".

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Yeah, Blizz wtf why I caen't be advetururr, so what that I killed gods, titans, elemental lords and dragon aspects and am a general of my faction with a frikkin' army and naval fleet at my disposal on multiple planets?

    /rage
    Yeah.... every xpac we, generals and high ranked on our faction, have to put our hands in some creature shit to collect shitty items for a stupid leveling quest....
    What a high level duty....
    We are not done killing boars or any other animals for some xp and a green item

  18. #78
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    BFA is, for the most part universally agreed to be a pretty shallow, poorly done and heavily rushed expansion with some interesting story idea's and utterly abysmal executions of them.

    In terms of gameplay, lore, and storytelling we have all but reached a point where besides the likes of Tyrande and Genn there are no faction specific characters who have some kinda grudge against the other.

    With that in mind... is it time, to consider cross-faction and the removal of said factions, now that there is basically almost no reason at all for another war again?

    Or would you truly feel that wow needs more faction divergance still?

    What would your reasons be?

    Or do you agree with the statement, that the time has come, for factions, to die.
    It is a dead horse that has been beaten into the ground. Leave PvP in for the people who love it but make the story about the threats we always have to come together to defeat. Because fighting Arthas, the Legion, Azshara, etc provides more than enough 'war' for the title to hold up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarethion View Post
    It needs to die as a central element of the story.

    World of Warcraft is the absolute worst game to do a faction war, because NOBODY WANTS TO BE ON THE LOSING SIDE and since you have people playing both sides, none of them can really "win". Can you even imagine how upset for instance Horde players would be if BfA ended with Alliance straight up winning the war?

    It would be a shitshow and that's why both times we got a "faction war expansion", it all went pretty much the same, i.e. one faction's leader was written to be a villain, so that his faction could rebel against him and thus everyone could theoretically win in the end.

    And if they do another faction war then it's going to be the same thing.
    Nailed it. ^
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  19. #79
    they shouldnt end it, they should make it better, not "alliance does something thats ignored then horde does something that starts war" AGAIN

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Beuargh View Post
    Yeah.... every xpac we, generals and high ranked on our faction, have to put our hands in some creature shit to collect shitty items for a stupid leveling quest....
    What a high level duty....
    We are not done killing boars or any other animals for some xp and a green item
    That's because it's what plebs want.

    I, personally, want to be a big dick general that tells people what to do while I sit on a throne in the castle playing with mog harem and executing the filthy Horde scum who dare to resist. Once in a while I'd take my sword and go down to business against some real threat that my stupid, incompetent and disappointing minions fail to dispatch, lop its head/eyeball/tentacleface off, get my fresh slutmog pieces and go back on the throne.

    Full style Dragon Age: Inquisition WoW edition, I say.

    Digging in shit for 8/8 seeds or whatever? Send that punk Wyrmbane to do that, I'm not anyone's bitch, yo!

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