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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    It's a game. It's FICTION. You are taking people's views on a piece of FICTON way too seriously. Yes, you are the one who has the problem.
    I quite explicitly explained why it matter little if this is FICTION. You just WANT to assume that people here argue pro-genocide because it is just a game, I find that quite naive, when there are many many people of such a persuation out there in the world.
    The anonymity of such a forum provides people with the courage to speak their mind freely, so in general I judge people by what they say even if they cloth it in the context of the game. If that is a problem for you, hummmm, tough luck I guess.

  2. #462
    She may be evil. But she's right.
    There is blood on the path I walk.


    Put a stop to the Democrat cabal.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I quite explicitly explained why it matter little if this is FICTION. You just WANT to assume that people here argue pro-genocide because it is just a game, I find that quite naive, when there are many many people of such a persuation out there in the world.
    The anonymity of such a forum provides people with the courage to speak their mind freely, so in general I judge people by what they say even if they cloth it in the context of the game. If that is a problem for you, hummmm, tough luck I guess.
    If being pro-genocide in a game could mean you are pro-genocide in real life then all gamers are potential murderers or violent aggressors. Almost all games have some form of violence in which the players condone. The biggest games are about killing the other guy before they kill you with the sole reason they are the enemy and that's about it. It's a very flimsy argument to make that in-game morals somehow reflects morals outside of it.

    You clearly think it does, but that means you have to be weary about everyone. I would say even you are in the category to be worried about because I'm sure you've played games where you enjoyed killing others. The fact that you have issues with separating the two makes you more of a danger than someone who realise the difference between fiction and real life morals.

    Morals in fiction are heavily influenced by the context of the world it's in. It's not applicable in our world because context would be different. An action in one game can be seen as good while the same action in another game can be considered bad all due to context and framework of said world.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    I don't. I am just pointing out who really has the problems.
    Why is it important for you to point that out?

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by WFD1992 View Post
    I mean, she has damned countless people, including the civilians of Teldrassil (possibly children as well) as well as many Alliance and Horde soldiers (which include her own people aka the Forsaken), to a torturous afterlife. Death is one thing, it happens in war, but this.....this is beyond justifiable. There is no hidden plan, no greater good. She is evil, though I wish the writers hadn't written her this way. There was a time when her ruthlessness was used for the good of her people.
    Few topics get the wow community buzzing as Sylvanas and High elves do. 24 pages in 9 days.

    She is supposed to be nuanced. evil but only because of what was done to her, she is also supposed to actually have some redeemable qualities and is suppsedly misunderstood.

    She is the curretn writing leads and directors fave character. HE will make her the greatest Thrall/MAlfurion watch and see.
    Valewalker Farodin:

    "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    If being pro-genocide in a game could mean you are pro-genocide in real life then all gamers are potential murderers or violent aggressors. Almost all games have some form of violence in which the players condone.
    Those aren't the same thing. These people aren't arguing that it is fine because it is a game, they're arguing that it is fine because genocide isn't that bad.

    There's also a difference between being of the opinion that a course of action is acceptable, and being willing to take that course of action when you know it has no real repercussions. Nor is doing what the game forces you to do to progress the same as condoning that course of action.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    She is supposed to be nuanced. evil but only because of what was done to her, she is also supposed to actually have some redeemable qualities and is suppsedly misunderstood.
    She most definitely isn't. She's doing this because she wants to, and spelled things out for the loyalists just to make it clear she was not at all misunderstood.

    She became evil because of what was done to her. But she chose to remain so of her own will.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    If being pro-genocide in a game could mean you are pro-genocide in real life then all gamers are potential murderers or violent aggressors. Almost all games have some form of violence in which the players condone. The biggest games are about killing the other guy before they kill you with the sole reason they are the enemy and that's about it. It's a very flimsy argument to make that in-game morals somehow reflects morals outside of it.
    At least modern games do however present you with a moral choice when the murder of innocents is concerned and rarely is that the foucs of a game.
    Just to make this clear it is not the ingame-roleplaying of a bad guy that I take issue with. But when people defend things like genocide with what they consider as "logic" to make it sound like genocide is not an evil act from their outgame perspective, I am concerned.
    It is not so much the reflection of ingame morality, but using ingame morality to convey outgame opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    You clearly think it does, but that means you have to be weary about everyone.
    Let's say with all the shit humanity has done in the past and present, I am not the most optimistic person when the human character is concerned. Sadly I am usually correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I would say even you are in the category to be worried about because I'm sure you've played games where you enjoyed killing others.
    Some, yes. Played GTA as a kid and ran over hundreds of pixel people on the sidewalks. But that does not mean I am defending drive-by shootings on a web forum or say people who drive over innocent pedestrians for fun are fine and clearly not evil. So yes, I know the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    The fact that you have issues with separating the two makes you more of a danger than someone who realise the difference between fiction and real life morals.
    So many assumptions about my character. I find it fun how you immediatedly assume I cannot seperate reality and fiction, becaue I consider the defense of genocide wrong, but grant the people that do actually defend mass murder the license that obviously they seperate these two worlds, despite no indication for it whatsoever. Interesting bias.

    It's just find it very naive to say people don't mean what they write, especially if they don't have to fear any repercussions and I am not sure what your point is. Should I now feel bad for countering pro-genocide people because they might just talk about fiction? Yeah I don't think so.
    Last edited by Raisei; 2020-06-15 at 07:29 PM.

  8. #468
    Mechagnome Doomislav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Well yeah clearly she is written to be. Any ambiguity about her character went out the window with the "morally grey" story.
    Yea I was kinda disappointed the writers went in this direction. Complex characters are interesting, but they just went full on mustache twirling evil with her...

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomislav View Post
    Yea I was kinda disappointed the writers went in this direction. Complex characters are interesting, but they just went full on mustache twirling evil with her...
    And yet you still get people insisting she is not evil. They could probably give her the mantle and the tophat too and they'd still insist she's just misunderstood and working for our best interests.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post

    She most definitely isn't. She's doing this because she wants to, and spelled things out for the loyalists just to make it clear she was not at all misunderstood.

    She became evil because of what was done to her. But she chose to remain so of her own will.
    Wanna bet Sylvanas would be shown as right after Shadowlands? Wanna bet the jailor breaking free and Sylvanas' reason for helping is not the universal all bad it is appearing to be.

    Classic writing trick, lack of information and set up makes it appear as one thing, only for later revelations to finally put in context what you see and realise, "omg, Sylvanas was doing us a favour" -2she's amazing, and badass"
    Valewalker Farodin:

    "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

  11. #471
    What if someone wants to play the evil side in-game?

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    What if someone wants to play the evil side in-game?
    That's cool, but there isn't supposed to be an evil side in WoW. I suggest you go play Swtor or LOTRO.
    WotLK > MoP > Legion > TBC > Cataclysm > BfA > WoD

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Wanna bet Sylvanas would be shown as right after Shadowlands? Wanna bet the jailor breaking free and Sylvanas' reason for helping is not the universal all bad it is appearing to be.

    Classic writing trick, lack of information and set up makes it appear as one thing, only for later revelations to finally put in context what you see and realise, "omg, Sylvanas was doing us a favour" -2she's amazing, and badass"
    This classic trick however stops working when the character in question actually DOES evil things all along. The character can APPEAR evil but cannot fully commit to it.
    Murdering a tree full of innocents is simply not excusable by some nonesensical justification later. I have no doubt that Sylvanas BELIEVES she is doing the right thing, but that just does not excuse her crimes in any way.

    If it really comes as you say then that will be a final spit on the graves of the Nightelves.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Wanna bet Sylvanas would be shown as right after Shadowlands? Wanna bet the jailor breaking free and Sylvanas' reason for helping is not the universal all bad it is appearing to be.

    Classic writing trick, lack of information and set up makes it appear as one thing, only for later revelations to finally put in context what you see and realise, "omg, Sylvanas was doing us a favour" -2she's amazing, and badass"
    She already made it perfectly clear she does not care about others and will happily sacrifice them for her own benefit. You're seriously delusional if you think Blizzard will go and justify a genocide.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by WFD1992 View Post
    I mean, she has damned countless people, including the civilians of Teldrassil (possibly children as well) as well as many Alliance and Horde soldiers (which include her own people aka the Forsaken), to a torturous afterlife. Death is one thing, it happens in war, but this.....this is beyond justifiable. There is no hidden plan, no greater good. She is evil, though I wish the writers hadn't written her this way. There was a time when her ruthlessness was used for the good of her people.
    The Alliance is evil. They want to control and rule everyone in Azeroth and beyond and convert them to following the light if possible too.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    The Alliance is evil. They want to control and rule everyone in Azeroth and beyond and convert them to following the light if possible too.
    No, they're evil because their leaders don't fight in a bikini. Come now, let's be real.
    WotLK > MoP > Legion > TBC > Cataclysm > BfA > WoD

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    You are sick.
    That was how WW2 was fought on both sides. The allies had this thought when leveling cities in Germany and Japan and other axis held areas.

    We've just been extremely fortunate that we've not had a real major war since. If the cold War heated up, even if it didn't go nuclear both sides would have used conventional weapons on civilian areas to try to stop the other side will to fight (aka give up hope) as that's how total wars between major powers have always been fought.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    That was how WW2 was fought on both sides. The allies had this thought when leveling cities in Germany and Japan and other axis held areas.

    We've just been extremely fortunate that we've not had a real major war since. If the cold War heated up, even if it didn't go nuclear both sides would have used conventional weapons on civilian areas to try to stop the other side will to fight (aka give up hope) as that's how total wars between major powers have always been fought.
    I didn't say I agreed with what those people did.
    WotLK > MoP > Legion > TBC > Cataclysm > BfA > WoD

  19. #479
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Wanna bet Sylvanas would be shown as right after Shadowlands? Wanna bet the jailor breaking free and Sylvanas' reason for helping is not the universal all bad it is appearing to be.

    Classic writing trick, lack of information and set up makes it appear as one thing, only for later revelations to finally put in context what you see and realise, "omg, Sylvanas was doing us a favour" -2she's amazing, and badass"
    I've been waiting for that for two years, clutching my floatation device in anticipation of the tidal wave of years.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by kappalol View Post
    What if someone wants to play the evil side in-game?
    This was always my issue with Forsaken as part of the horde. They are evil from the start (experimenting horrifically on live people) and literally comic book evil from Cata onwards but blizzard wants us to believe the horde are the nobel misunderstood types. Kinda hard to reconsile the two things happening at the same time.

    I remember when I first got interested in wow game and saw you could play as basically the scourge from wc3 guys I thought it was super cool. Then I started playing and realized you actually can't... But you can....but you really can't. Because blizzard just can't make up their minds.

    There should have been a 3rd faction from the start, the forsaken (as undead versions of the other races) as their own thing for those who wanted to be the literally evil guys Imo.

    As for sylvanas, I sympathized with her until Cata, then I saw she was low-key following in Arthas's footsteps. I still thought she was a cool character, though, and was interested where they would take her. It's too late to find redemption for her unless it's written really really well and frankly with respect to night-elf players (acknowledging what she did). I think if this follows to an Arthas's style conclusion, then I'm ok with it because I'm a fan of dramatic irony and she's becoming eveything she claimed to hate about him.

    I have a sneaking suspicion though, that they are gonna try to force a redemption arc/ a "she was doing it for good all along" and handle it poorly, only satisfying the cringy sylvanas fanbois that think their wifu can do no wrong. And that would be a real shame, becuase I don't think that's the majority of the playerbase but it would fall in line with how many felt about her story in bfa and how it was handled.

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