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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    So you would call person who would cross empty round with red lights on evil. Thats pretty interesting... You must consider alot of children evil and you consider peoople escaping north korea evil as they brake the law too then.
    Way to move goal post, hmm? You never said empty road. The point of course was made for a situation in which you endanger others with your stupidity.

    Oh and no, I do not think North Korea should be our paragon for anything, neither it's "laws" nor should we care about their stance on genocide. Which is exactly my point. Just because North Korea thinks it is okay to do the things they do, does not make them good, it just makes them wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    Law and morals are differant thing I appreciate law for keeping order and making society work but law on itself has nothiing to do with morals. Keeping person who brakes the law locked up is okay but again it has nothing to do with morals and his actions horrid? most likely yeah but not objectively evil.
    Phew hope the victims of the serial killer did not spend their last moments thinking he was evil. Now that would really be unfair! I could offer other historical examples that proof you wrong, but it's gonna be a waste of my time and risk infractions. Not worth it. Whatever twisted kind of phylosophy you cooked up that somehow makes genocide fine I am not interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    What does being a good person even mean? being a good person is subjective as only way to have objective good person is have atleast every religions moral values and cultural moral values to agree that person is a good person but we can't even find an indivual who fits those criterias. So can you prove EVERYONE(everyone means every single individual) considers someone a bad person?
    There is a consensus on what a good person does and doesn't do. This consensus does not require everyone to agree, just the majority, there will always be people that disagree with everything for various reasons, that does not mean that we can excuse everything. People don't get to make their own rules, that is what we would call anarchy and chaos.
    This majority has deemed genocide an evil act and a crime, heavily punished. You can shift and turn as much as you like, THIS is the reality we are living in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    I never said sylvanas is good my only oppinion is that good or evil really aren't a thing just imaginary values which we have over 8 billion differant. Also you can consider anyone you want evil but the moment you start claiming someone is objectively evil you are just delusional and calling people twisted for aiming to have realistic POV on morals is just rude.
    True, you are just complaining that people call a genocidal murderer evil. We should all be ashamed.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    We should all celebrate this glorious acomplishment of burning thousands of innocents AND sending them to eternal suffering!!!

    No wait, I forgot, most people are not psychopaths and do not celebrate outright genocide. Shame the Horde didn't get the memo.

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    If that were true then our world would not have laws and a justice system. It is very clearly defined what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. Right and Wrong are not just ambigious words. This same system though in weaker form is applied to Azeroth as the Trial of Garrosh clearly shows.

    Nowhere but on the Internets will you find people that support the notion that outright genocide of unarmed civilians is a good act.
    Right and wrong are not good and evil. Things can be objectively right or wrong, but there is no objective morality.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Way to move goal post, hmm? You never said empty road. The point of course was made for a situation in which you endanger others with your stupidity.

    Oh and no, I do not think North Korea should be our paragon for anything, neither it's "laws" nor should we care about their stance on genocide. Which is exactly my point. Just because North Korea thinks it is okay to do the things they do, does not make them good, it just makes them wrong.



    Phew hope the victims of the serial killer did not spend their last moments thinking he was evil. Now that would really be unfair! I could offer other historical examples that proof you wrong, but it's gonna be a waste of my time and risk infractions. Not worth it. Whatever twisted kind of phylosophy you cooked up that somehow makes genocide fine I am not interested.



    There is a consensus on what a good person does and doesn't do. This consensus does not require everyone to agree, just the majority, there will always be people that disagree with everything for various reasons, that does not mean that we can excuse everything. People don't get to make their own rules, that is what we would call anarchy and chaos.
    This majority has deemed genocide an evil act and a crime, heavily punished. You can shift and turn as much as you like, THIS is the reality we are living in.

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    True, you are just complaining that people call a genocidal murderer evil. We should all be ashamed.
    I never said anything specific about crossing road with red lights on either you just made an argument one way but as again you sayid that laws are made from morals and on this case who is that against morals?

    So you are saying that all people who disagree with are always wrong on morals? and again it serves my point of morals being subjective as you are stating again and again all who disagree with your morals are wrong.

    They can think they are evil as its their own subjective point of view again I'm not saying having subjective PoV is bad in any way I'm just saying this threads main point is making an objective argument that sylvanas is evil but that isn't objective at all and extreme moral relativism is pretty common in philospohers these days and its started from nietzsche.

    If most people think think something is true which is scientifically proven to otherwise it doesn't change it to be true itself and philosphy is counted among science and there morals are still being debated. You can't even find consessus of people agreeing on most conditions as main religions cause even there that "a good person needs to believe in our religion"

    Evil is a point of view you are calling her objectively evil while we even have a huge moral philosphy saying she is good and me saying morals are so subjective they don't have any value as we can't even prove morals exists. Its the same question if we destroyed every copy of harry potter book, dvd and every physically material which had it contained in any way would it still exist as both are just ideas and do ideas exist.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I have been wondering about that myself. It would be fine if they like her for being a bad guy. I throughly enjoy Palpatine in SW for example, but that does not make me suddenly declare that all his brutal murders, tortures and genocides have been good acts. He IS the villan of the story and it is fine to like him for that.
    The same goes for Sylvanas. She is the villain and it is fine to like her for that, but when you start to tell everyone how genocide is actually not evil because morals are relative, then you have throughly twisted your own morals already.
    Exactly. Nobody is going to call you evil for liking an evil character that you admit is evil. When you start justifying their evil acts, well...

  5. #525
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    If you still haven't realized that Sylvanas started the war because she wanted to start a war then you are extremly resilient to facts and nothing we can say will make you see the truth.

    But apart from that, you say parading Genn in front of Sylvanas is an afront. Like... wow, just wow. Let's just forget that the Banshee blighted his homeland, killed thousands of his people and murdered his son, Genn should really get over it, but it is truely an afront to make Sylvanas look at him.

    Only in the Horde apologists will you find people that blame victims of genocide for striking back against the murderers of their families.
    I never said that Genn wasn't justified. However, that doesn't change the fact that Anduin's actions could have easily been read as a provocation, even if Sylvanas hadn't been the omegalul EvuL Mary Sue she is. Besides, she did want to start the war... but Anduin and Genn gave her the very pretext she needed (that's how she managed to convince Saurfang, after all), so there you go with your strawman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Exactly. Nobody is going to call you evil for liking an evil character that you admit is evil. When you start justifying their evil acts, well...
    Explaining =! Justifying
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I never said that Genn wasn't justified. However, that doesn't change the fact that Anduin's actions could have easily been read as a provocation, even if Sylvanas hadn't been the omegalul EvuL Mary Sue she is. Besides, she did want to start the war... but Anduin and Genn gave her the very pretext she needed (that's how she managed to convince Saurfang, after all), so there you go with your strawman.

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    Explaining =! Justifying
    Sylvanas was stretching as hard as some of the posters in this thread when she "justified" the Geno... I mean war.

    She just happens to be good at manipulation and Saurfang, even though I like him, was thick enough to be manipulated into an attack that included sneaking into a night elf city and killing everyone in the dead of night. So honorable...

    Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

  7. #527
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dejavuproned View Post
    She just happens to be good at manipulation and Saurfang, even though I like him, was thick enough to be manipulated into an attack that included sneaking into a night elf city and killing everyone in the dead of night. So honorable...
    Well, we spent 2/3 of BfA hearing in all tones and volumes about Saurfang's MUH HONORZ, including three very pretty cinematics. Even the leader of the opposing faction endorsed him - and as we all know, he's always right and indeed the paragon of everything that's good and holy in Azeroth. Don't dare doubt about MUH HONORZ ever again
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Explaining =! Justifying
    I'm aware of what I said.

  9. #529
    Yea, but it's just a game so it's okay to be evil.

  10. #530
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    2 people already dunked on your very wrong comment, but why not 3? Calia went there in disguise to see the people and event. She didn't start shit. Sylvanas went mental on the Forsaken there, though.
    Not to mention she was already in league with the jailor at that point and heading towards war anyway. But don't let that tid bid of info stop @Mardux while he/she questions our critical thinking.
    Yeah... did they retcon before the storm already? If you had read that (and had a bit of critical thinking skills) you'd have known it was calia that restarted the war with Anduin's help
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    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    Yea, but it's just a game so it's okay to be evil.
    This basically. But nope. People want to do every kind of kung Fu gymnastics to explain otherwise.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    Yea, but it's just a game so it's okay to be evil.
    That's totally true. The problem is people are trying to justify the stuff she did as not actually evil. And some of the stretching to make that happen would make Mr. Fantastic blush.

    Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No, they're evil because their leaders don't fight in a bikini. Come now, let's be real.
    Which Horde leader fights in a bikini in BFA? Funny you should make a snide remark about models showing skin while you have Alleria's pic as your avatar here. Or do sexy tops don't count? Next time try harder.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Which Horde leader fights in a bikini in BFA? Funny you should make a snide remark about models showing skin while you have Alleria's pic as your avatar here. Or do sexy tops don't count? Next time try harder.
    Pass me some salt bro.

    And, well, my avatar doesn't highlight Alleria's underwears, so I don't see how that's a relevant comparison.
    WotLK > MoP > Legion > TBC > Cataclysm > BfA > WoD

  14. #534
    Whats the problem if she is? Is there one? Evil characters make stories more interesting. Or you rather have her be like boring AF Anduin? All righteous bla bla bla morality bla bla bla.

    Im tired of these fantasies where the good guys win, its boring. Its fantasy! Make it as interesting as possible. In fact, give us more toons that are willing to destroy, kill, torture, anything. Especially unexpected characters, twist things a bit.

    If Sylvanas is actually evil, let her win, she is strong as hell, she can beat us to the ground. LET HER!

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeh.- View Post
    Whats the problem if she is? Is there one? Evil characters make stories more interesting. Or you rather have her be like boring AF Anduin? All righteous bla bla bla morality bla bla bla.

    Im tired of these fantasies where the good guys win, its boring. Its fantasy! Make it as interesting as possible. In fact, give us more toons that are willing to destroy, kill, torture, anything. Especially unexpected characters, twist things a bit.

    If Sylvanas is actually evil, let her win, she is strong as hell, she can beat us to the ground. LET HER!
    Do you own a body pillow?

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Do you own a body pillow?
    Not even close.

  17. #537
    Stood in the Fire WFD1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeh.- View Post
    Whats the problem if she is? Is there one? Evil characters make stories more interesting. Or you rather have her be like boring AF Anduin? All righteous bla bla bla morality bla bla bla.

    Im tired of these fantasies where the good guys win, its boring. Its fantasy! Make it as interesting as possible. In fact, give us more toons that are willing to destroy, kill, torture, anything. Especially unexpected characters, twist things a bit.

    If Sylvanas is actually evil, let her win, she is strong as hell, she can beat us to the ground. LET HER!
    There is no problem with her being evil. The problem is that people are in denial.

    Also, hell no, Sylvana's shouldn't win if she is a raid boss.

  18. #538
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFD1992 View Post
    There is no problem with her being evil. The problem is that people are in denial.

    Also, hell no, Sylvana's shouldn't win if she is a raid boss.
    Sylvanas will "win" in the sense that Kerrigan "won" in SC2. Come to think of it, Sylvanas is just a !@#$tier Kerrigan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  19. #539
    Complete "LOL" if you think Blizzard will let Sylvanas be a pure villain.
    Dont you know Blizzard?

  20. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeh.- View Post

    If Sylvanas is actually evil, let her win, she is strong as hell, she can beat us to the ground. LET HER!
    Remember the end of WC3, with the LK/Arthas standing triumphant? Imagine something like that happening today... All these moralists, 24/7 Human Paladin LARPs would tear their vestments, horrified to no end
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

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