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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by The Emperor View Post
    Yeah and that is perfectly okay. I'm tired of hippie goody two shoes muh honor racial leaders. I want to be a non-apologetic neutral evil type of character, and Sylvanas is a perfect embodiment of my ideal racial leader. Fuck Ion for taking her away from the undead, and fuck him for trying to portray undead as anything but total jackasses.
    Can't really disagree, at least not fully, but Ion doesn't make any of the decisions you just said, lol.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    evil done for good is evil except if its done for good then its not evil?
    Nope. You must be one of those people who thing ALL killing is evil. Spoiler alert, it's not. That why our laws in the US and abroad make a distinction between homicide and murder. While all murders are homicides, not all homicides are murder. When a mass shooter is shot by anyone, that is a homicide, sure, but it is a JUSTIFIED homicide. Those people are typically called HEROES, not villains. See the distinction?
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  3. #63
    Banned Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Genocide means intent purpose of wiping out everyone in the species. Hint she wasn't marching on parts of the world night elves lived elsewhere. Burning of Teldrassil is nothing more than bombing of cities allies and axis did in WW2. Are those genocide. If Yes then we need to start calling on investigations into how we teach the allied perspective in WW2, if no then sorry Sylvanas just dresdened a city at worst.

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    And if you bothered reading her short story you'll realise the reason behind this was use blight or let Garrosh exterminate the Forsaken.
    You do realize the vast majority of Darnassian elves lived in Darnassus, yes? So much so that a kaldorei even says she committed genocide because very few elves lived beyond Darnassus' borders. She clearly wanted to exterminate all of them. In fact, the correct term would be mundicide, since she wants to exterminate all life on Azeroth.

    And she used the blight because she was getting scared the gilneans were retaking their city. That had nothing to do with her desire to preserve Forsaken, otherwise she would've used it from the start of the invasion. But I dont suppose you bothered playing that questline, since it's Alliance only and you are clearly a hardcore Sylvanas fanboy who believes she did nothing wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Still just some side story though, nothing like now. But yes, it was inevitable that they used her for more stuff during the years.

    And about that Cata incident, that questline was awesome.
    Because back then she was just Queen of the Forsaken and not Warchief of the Horde.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-06-06 at 09:11 PM.

  4. #64
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Of course she is evil.
    I still enjoyed her character until BfA though...
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  5. #65
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    The issue with Sylvie isn't whether she is a villain or not (ofc she is), but rather that she's a terribly written one.

  6. #66
    Mechagnome Phaelia's Avatar
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    I’m good with her being evil. I have always desired a fully evil faction. No qualms. No mercy. Horde isn’t that, but it is diet evil. Not good enough
    ”I've walked the realms of the dead. I have seen the infinite dark. Nothing you say. Or do. Could possibly frighten me."-Sylvanas Windrunner

  7. #67
    It depends on what you mean by "evil". We don't have the luxury of living in a universe with actual supernatural forces at work. That certainly puts a different spin on morality.

    We also don't know what Sylvanas' endgame is. Many (but certainly not all) of her actions APPEAR despicable for now, given the most probably moral context we can derive for the diegesis. But that's the same for many actions by many other characters, including many of the actions taken by the Alliance and its precursors throughout history. Subsequent events may vindicate some decisions, or at least make them more understandable. But Sylvanas' motivation is very much in flux. We have very little idea what's behind all the things she's done and been doing.

    What if, say, her sowing the seeds of war and causing widespread death was the only way to bring the Shadowlands into the fold, and prepare for an impending assault by the Void that would have otherwise literally destroyed the entirety of creation? Certainly wouldn't seem nearly as evil then. Now, we have no idea of course if that's actually the case, or whatever else is going on. But it's not inconceivable for her to have good reason for her actions.

  8. #68
    The horde is suppose to be evil look at the current leaders a bunch of sissies

  9. #69
    Banned Varodoc's Avatar
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    It baffles me that some people keep saying we don't know Sylvanas' endgame after BfA. It's like they were not even paying attention:





    Sylvanas has a negative character arc that has been established since Cataclysm. She has become just as twisted as the man she once hated so much, and just like him she wants everyone to serve Death (even N'Zoth, indirectly, would serve Death by killing many people). There is no deeper motivation that drives her. She believes there is no hope in clinging to life (like she literally says in that cutscene I posted), that's it. She might realize her mistakes and try to change her path at the very end, but right now she is 100% a villain with 100% evil intentions. This is clearly the story Blizzard is writing.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-06-06 at 09:43 PM.

  10. #70
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Ye I am sure those Night Elven children and other civilians were glad to be set free by her while they burned or choked to death. No harm and suffering done AT ALL.

    No, my friend, she is objectively evil. At this point that is just fact, not opinion.
    You're not even looking at intent. Based off of what you just typed, you're implying her intent was for them to burn and suffer. What I'm saying is that while she did cause suffering/pain, her intent wasn't to do just that. She has a bigger plan and therefore her intents are on bettering Azeroth as a whole. Bettering azeroth doesn't sound like evil.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    You're not even looking at intent. Based off of what you just typed, you're implying her intent was for them to burn and suffer. What I'm saying is that while she did cause suffering/pain, her intent wasn't to do just that. She has a bigger plan and therefore her intents are on bettering Azeroth as a whole. Bettering azeroth doesn't sound like evil.
    This is 100% headcanon. Nowhere is it even implied she wants to improve Azeroth. In fact, she made a bargain with Azshara to free N'Zoth with the intent of letting N'Zoth kill as many people as possible. Because of Sylvanas' actions (who sent the champions carrying the Heart of Azeroth to Nazjatar, which led to N'Zoth's rise), the world was almost engulfed by the Black Empire. She literally calls Azeroth "a prison" with a disgusted tone in the Shadowlands cinematic trailer.

  12. #72
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalamityHeart View Post
    There are quite a few issues with believing that "the ends justify the means" is a good needle to put on your moral compass...

    The biggest one is that as an outsider, someone who's not inside the head of the one enacting those means, you have no idea what those ends actually are until they're reached, and so you have no idea if those means are actually justified until it's too late.

    "But she told us what her end is!"

    And you believed her? You trusted the word of someone who would commit genocide on a whim?

    "But what if it turns out that murdering a bunch of civilians and children actually was the right call to make?"

    Then you're vindicated. You did it. You walked blind into the correct door. You turned your brain off and placed your bets on the morality of genocidal actions, and in the end, you won. Congratulations.

    My question to that is, what if it turns out that murdering a bunch of civilians and children actually wasn't the right call to make? What if there was a better solution? Do you not see the problem here?
    What you're arguing isn't even close to what I'm talking about. You missed. I'm not talking about justifying her actions, I'm talking about intent. For someone to be evil, their intentions have to be evil. That's what I'm discussing, not whether or not she's justified. I disagreed with burning Teldrasil just like most did, but it would be too one dimensional of sylvanas to just commit genocide for no reason at all, other than to be evil. That's the most pathetic writing when the villain is evil simply because they want to see the world burn. What makes villains like Thanos appealing is that they aren't just evil, it's a combination of having a skewed moral compass and having the mindset of "do whatever it takes" in order to preserve their world. This is what blizzard has been stating from the get go, you know the people who are writing all the lore, that Sylvanas is morally grey. That's all it is and morally grey doesn't scream evil to me. The mad scientist who wants to plague the whole town and see the reactions because SCIENCE! is an evil character. Sylvanas simply believes we're doomed/enslaved and she has the solution to the problem most of us are unaware.

    This is speculations, but I'm guessing SL will explain all of Sylvanas's actions and it'll turn into her becoming super powerful in order to defeat a greater evil. Maybe we might even redeem or help those who were murdered and set them free in the druid zone of SL. All I'm saying is that intent is what answers whether or not someone is evil. I believe Sylvanas had no intent to be evil regardless of her actions she committed. She believed that at the end of a long rope of horrible crimes, is a better future and she's not afraid to do whatever it takes to achieve that future. That doesn't scream evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    This is 100% headcanon. Nowhere is it even implied she wants to improve Azeroth. In fact, she made a bargain with Azshara to free N'Zoth with the intent of letting N'Zoth kill as many people as possible. Because of Sylvanas' actions (who sent the champions carrying the Heart of Azeroth to Nazjatar, which led to N'Zoth's rise), the world was almost engulfed by the Black Empire. She literally calls Azeroth "a prison" with a disgusted tone in the Shadowlands cinematic trailer.
    And we know from the SL panel at last years blizzcon that she becomes more powerful for every soul she sends to the Maw. She's becoming super powerful like we saw from the time she fought saurfang to when she fought Bolvar, so clearly she has intentions of becoming more powerful. Now this is speculation, but I believe she's trying to become more powerful so that she can defeat some great enemy on the other side. Maybe that being is the jailer, maybe it's something much worse. I just feel like it would be the laziest writing imaginable for them to say she committed all these crimes because she wanted people to suffer and that made her feel good. Blizzard has already stated that she's morally grey, which tells us she has a skewed/lacking moral compass and has the mindset of do whatever it takes. That screams reckless/mad, but not evil.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  13. #73
    Banned Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    What you're arguing isn't even close to what I'm talking about. You missed. I'm not talking about justifying her actions, I'm talking about intent. For someone to be evil, their intentions have to be evil. That's what I'm discussing, not whether or not she's justified. I disagreed with burning Teldrasil just like most did, but it would be too one dimensional of sylvanas to just commit genocide for no reason at all, other than to be evil. That's the most pathetic writing when the villain is evil simply because they want to see the world burn. What makes villains like Thanos appealing is that they aren't just evil, it's a combination of having a skewed moral compass and having the mindset of "do whatever it takes" in order to preserve their world. This is what blizzard has been stating from the get go, you know the people who are writing all the lore, that Sylvanas is morally grey. That's all it is and morally grey doesn't scream evil to me. The mad scientist who wants to plague the whole town and see the reactions because SCIENCE! is an evil character. Sylvanas simply believes we're doomed/enslaved and she has the solution to the problem most of us are unaware.

    This is speculations, but I'm guessing SL will explain all of Sylvanas's actions and it'll turn into her becoming super powerful in order to defeat a greater evil. Maybe we might even redeem or help those who were murdered and set them free in the druid zone of SL. All I'm saying is that intent is what answers whether or not someone is evil. I believe Sylvanas had no intent to be evil regardless of her actions she committed. She believed that at the end of a long rope of horrible crimes, is a better future and she's not afraid to do whatever it takes to achieve that future. That doesn't scream evil.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And we know from the SL panel at last years blizzcon that she becomes more powerful for every soul she sends to the Maw. She's becoming super powerful like we saw from the time she fought saurfang to when she fought Bolvar, so clearly she has intentions of becoming more powerful. Now this is speculation, but I believe she's trying to become more powerful so that she can defeat some great enemy on the other side. Maybe that being is the jailer, maybe it's something much worse. I just feel like it would be the laziest writing imaginable for them to say she committed all these crimes because she wanted people to suffer and that made her feel good. Blizzard has already stated that she's morally grey, which tells us she has a skewed/lacking moral compass and has the mindset of do whatever it takes. That screams reckless/mad, but not evil.
    The idea that she wants to defeat the Jailer with that power doesn't make any sense at all, because the Jailer is the one empowering her in the first place. All those souls are empowering the Jailer, who then chooses to give some of his powers to Sylvanas. Also, if Sylvanas is trying to defeat a "much more terrible being" in the Shadowlands, she is doing a terrible job at it. As I said, she allowed N'Zoth to break free from his bonds, and that almost resulted in the doom of the entire UNIVERSE (as stated in the encounter journal of Ny'alotha).

    Blizzard never said she was morally grey. Blizzard said the Horde was morally grey in reference to the Burning of Teldrassil, because many good soldiers were forced to follow the orders of a psycopath.

    She wants people to die because she has given up all hope. This is made clear in her Warbringers short. She saw herself in Delaryn, and she regrets how she used to be so filled with hope and cheerful, because all of that led to her death (she even calls her younger self a "fool"). That's why now she is a nihilist who believes there is no hope and it is foolish to cling to life. That's why she believes undeath is a higher state of existence and wants to "bestow that gift" upon everyone. She has become just as twisted as the Lich King -- a storyline which was set up since Cataclysm, when both Garrosh and the Ebon Blade/Argent Crusade noticed her increasing similarities with him.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-06-06 at 09:59 PM.

  14. #74
    Americans are evil because they bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    lul logic

  15. #75
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The idea that she wants to defeat the Jailer with that power doesn't make any sense at all, because the Jailer is the one empowering her in the first place. All those souls are empowering the Jailer, who then chooses to give some of his powers to Sylvanas. Also, if Sylvanas is trying to defeat a "much more terrible being" in the Shadowlands, she is doing a terrible job at it. As I said, she allowed N'Zoth to break free from his bonds, and that almost resulted in the doom of the entire UNIVERSE (as stated in the encounter journal of Ny'alotha).

    Blizzard never said she was morally grey. Blizzard said the Horde was morally grey in reference to the Burning of Teldrassil, because many good soldiers were forced to follow the orders of a psycopath.

    She wants people to die because she has given up all hope. This is made clear in her Warbringers short. She saw herself in Delaryn, and she regrets how she used to be so filled with hope and cheerful, because all of that led to her death (she even calls her younger self a "fool"). That's why now she is a nihilist who believes there is no hope and it is foolish to cling to life. That's why she believes undeath is a higher state of existence and wants to "bestow that gift" upon everyone. She has become just as twisted as the Lich King -- a storyline which was set up since Cataclysm, when both Garrosh and the Ebon Blade/Argent Crusade noticed her increasing similarities with him.
    Well giving us a gift doesn't sound like evil intentions. So at this point I'm pretty comfortable that she's just morally grey and has lost her moral compass on her endeavors. I'm not against killing her if she becomes a raid boss, I'm just unconvinced she's evil. Her whole story screams do anything at all costs and that doesn't imply evil, it implies recklessness. We'll potentially kill her because she's reckless/out of control, not because she's eViL!!!
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  16. #76
    Banned Varodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Well giving us a gift doesn't sound like evil intentions. So at this point I'm pretty comfortable that she's just morally grey and has lost her moral compass on her endeavors. I'm not against killing her if she becomes a raid boss, I'm just unconvinced she's evil. Her whole story screams do anything at all costs and that doesn't imply evil, it implies recklessness. We'll potentially kill her because she's reckless/out of control, not because she's eViL!!!
    Are you actually trolling? You do understand that "gift" is death, yes?

    Oh yeah I just finished reading your post, you are definitely trolling. You could've made that more obvious though, would've spared me the 30 seconds of looking for those pics.

  17. #77
    She ain't evil, she's just misundestood.

    She did not just burn all these elves, she set them "freeeeeeeeeeeeee".

  18. #78
    Herald of the Titans Synros's Avatar
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    Nah man, she's just playing 16-Dimensional Chess.
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  19. #79
    Watch out say the waifu posters will come after you

  20. #80
    Alliance fanboys and people that enjoy primitive black/white writing circlejerking again, amazing.

    She is ruthless, cold, calculated (some Blizzard writing fails aside), and goal-oriented. She doesn't do the "lets all hug and be friends" crap, she sees alliance for what it is - a bunch of duplicitous, self-righteous assholes, high on their fumes - and acts accordingly. In my opinion, that is a good leader. If you were to view her from a point of a first-grader - yes, she is evil. Doesn't mean she's wrong though.

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