Poll: Do you want Corruption in Shadowlands?

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  1. #201
    Corruption sounds terrible on paper and in practice.Nothing fun about something that is 100% passive do more damage than your rotation can do with out it.Corruption dies with this terrible expac and i hope it never comes back.

  2. #202
    Corruption could have been great, but sadly, it was terrible. I love the general idea of applying more buffs to your gear which, when paired together, have negative side effects. Makes for a fun minmaxing gameplay.
    But what doesn't make it fun or minmaxing style of gameplay, its the complete randomness and the sheer power of corruptions on some classes. For an example TD and IS, theres no other class where it is as good as on a demon hunter. Not to mention TD, which is one of the strongest and most fun corruptions, is just ass for ranged.

    IS doing 30% of all damage (or even more) of one demon hunter, is just not fun gameplay. Imagine your top damaging ability being something completely random that you have no control over whatsoever, pretty dull and boring gameplay to me.

    Random procing aside, what I find even worse (before the vendor was introduced) what the terrible randomness of acquiring corrupted items. You had no luck with corruption drops while this other bad player of the same class had all the luck, and you have to sit there in tears while watching him be above you on the meter, just because he has for an example 6 gushing wounds, and you've none.

    Obviously, this was changed with the corruption vendor being introduced. What I again don't like is the currency needed to buy them. Why not tie it to pve/pvp content only ? increase the rewards in raids, m+ and pvp and people will be able to farm them while doing the content they love doing.
    Nobody has fun grinding x visions in a row just so you can buy that expedient before it goes away, or doing emissaries and WQs this late into the expansion. We've already done a bunch of those, I'm not doing those anymore for a reason, not because theres no incentive for me to do it. I've done my share of WQs, now its time to leave them be (I'm still not doing them even after the echoes introduction).

    All in all, corruption could have been a great system. I really hope we don't see it in Shadowlands, but instead we get something that built upon the current system, and expanded it while fixing it's flaws.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    That's actually kinda similar to an idea I had for a replacement for tier sets. You know the old argument. Do I replace this better itemized piece with a worse itemized tier piece for a bonus, is it worth it, etc. My idea was that tier pieces would be kinda like enchants. Kill the boss that would've dropped the tier pants, you have a chance to loot a token which allows to design any pants you want as "tier". So you can wear the good pieces you wanted and still have the nifty bonuses.
    Yes, that's a good idea. BOP enchants added to boss loot tables. Could be segregated in 3 types of token like old tier sets used to be, in order to avoid loot table bloat (you don't want to have 36 enchants on a single boss in addition to standard gear)

    Corruption is basically a tier set for T25 or whatever tier we are at. Except you can choose your bonus and most of them are way more generic, being simple stat increases or damage procs. Few items like the Skitra bow for Hunters have a spec-defining effect that acts very much like Tier set bonus.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Because when everyone gets more powerful by 10 ilvls, nobody gets more powerful, curve just shifts higher up.
    Which is esentially the same as boosting all item levels by 10 just with extra tax.

    Raiding isn't competitive. Dealing more damage is always an upgrade. Unless you're talking about PVP, you have no point.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Perhaps I should elaborate then:

    Corrupted gear is a great end of expansion feature and while I 100% would not endorse carrying the system over for the beginning of SL, I wouldn't mind seeing an elaboration of this system added for the final content patch.
    Exactly. It's great way of gradually nerfing content while letting people be borderline op in times when it doesn't really matter anymore. From what I understand the OP bit will be now handled by thorgast during the entire xpac though

  6. #206
    i guess corruptions are somewhat fine for an end of expansion drought
    the problem with them are, in my opinion, other players expecting you to grind your ass off just because they think they have an obligation to do so, too (tldr; peer pressure)

    jeez, i was glad that bunch of wannabe-methods i called guild collapsed on itself.

  7. #207
    All that loot needs to provide numberwise is a feel of power and speed increase (mainly in solo content, as as soon you feel like to overpower raids and M+ there are no loot upgrades for you anymore anyway) and a gating mechanism for new/harder content. The BIS concept is totally fine, players want to work for their power peak, reach it, enjoy it for a while and take a break, rince and repeat. Everything else making loot "exciting" is just another carrot on the stick. Blizzard understood they cannot catch players with that anymore and rather annoy them off with it, this is the one and only reason for "#letlootbeloot".

  8. #208
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    Look at that ratio....think it's safe to say what the game doesn't need!

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    If at the same time it was critically important enough what you press/way you behave, then this could be truth... but it's not

    Class "fantasy" should go ahead, which means nothing that concerns the class in this “characteristic” should really be, only universal ones. Which immediately imposes huge restrictions on "active"/trigger part of it.
    In this case, these people are more likely to be more trained and accustomed to number of "ass hours", and hence total number of "gambles", which means "tram-pam-pam" skill here is a less fundamental factor. Of course, it's impossible to deny its value “absolutely”, but nevertheless, as I said, number of gambles and knowledge of system exploits comes to fore... and please stop matching 1 level of RNG with 4 of it
    Class is not the only fantasy in the game. Spec is not the only fantasy in the game. There is also an entire rest of the video game as well as your class and spec. You do not need to have powers come only from your class or spec, and indeed you never have.

    Answer this: How much of your damage comes from things not your class or spec in Vanilla? Keep in mind, I'm talking about last patch here since we're also talking about last patch in BFA. You completely missed the point of that statement.

    On the second thing you replied to: Notice I said effort. Effort and skill are only tangentially related. Bleeding edge raiding requires a great deal of both of them. Effort to do what you need to do, and skill to do it properly. Not that you truly need to do a lot of the things they do. The game is balanced in such a way that you will be able to actually get through it with whatever you get. BIS is never needed. Bleeding edge has to do a lot of gimmicky things because they do the raids undergeared. Mythic is designed to be cleared in months, not weeks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
    Exactly. It's great way of gradually nerfing content while letting people be borderline op in times when it doesn't really matter anymore. From what I understand the OP bit will be now handled by thorgast during the entire xpac though
    but the game is not allowed to be fun. It must only be spreadsheets.

  10. #210
    Corruption is a great system as long as you have the vendor from start, without this rotation stuff. Unfortunately, we dont get the vendor at start as then people will bitch about how its so mandatory to grind echos to progress in their 8/12 Heroic guild and how bosses are unkillable otherwise.

  11. #211
    How about removing the borrowing powers and making classes be enjoyable again?

  12. #212
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Shaetha
    Answer this: How much of your damage comes from things not your class or spec in Vanilla? Keep in mind, I'm talking about last patch here since we're also talking about last patch in BFA. You completely missed the point of that statement.
    It's not about pure damage, it's about performance we're talking. In other words, characteristics should enhance performance (class "fantasy" = as role design, quotes here for a reason), not replace it (real class fantasy). Is that clear?

    I think you were just too shy to see the links, well, in short:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    racial part goes cross-classes (bonuses, base animations), class' (abilities and mechanics) part goes cross-specs (build = talents), talents' part goes cross-roles, since last one is mostly controlled by “momentary choice”: priority of abilities, used gear and other temporary "progress" stuff
    So, as you see - items/rep/world-parts'-"borders" must be at the very bottom in "control" hierarchy, and can't creep into classes&talents and their main task is to emphasize role of your character in encounter (which is "enhance your performance, but not replace it"), just as I said. There're classes that have opportunity to choose more passive/useless role from "your" point of view (were, devs apparently didn't like it), while remaining very useful as part of encounter = performance - don't forget about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    I criticize ALL+ such items-spells-effects and mechanisms, be it AA, legendaries, or corruption - absolutely any. I can add to them work of toys, PvP perks, covenants+souldbinds+conduits (that's the only valid way they could be implemented) and other similar “limited” season/expansion/terrain heresy. It's just universal rule, this is foundation (here and here are examples of discussions of some problems that may appear when you don't take it into account).
    As for the second, then everything is very simple, I'm against this one (I'm talking about players, not about roles or classes) for game (we talked about this already). Effort is good (for normal design), but since content and progress go hand in hand (they should go, and not the nonsense that is now), person won't got over own head. Ultimately, will have to improve own performance = your "effort needed to actually do it properly" (gameplay and social) in order to receive content and continue progress (otherwise own success will be quite limited). So... yes, you said effort if take it out of context, but it's performance, which also is fully consistent with quote you answered (which speaks of skill).
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Result is result, and performancehere is your behavior, is what you doing during encounter. There is no any second meaning. Performance is your skill to behave rightly/adequately in current encounter. Things like choose how to move, where, what to use and on whom: performance consists of class&role knowledge (global) = skill + teamwork and knowledge of encounter/content (local) = effort.
    An effective performance is determined by achievement skills and competency of the performer - level of skill and knowledge. Spencer and McClelland in 1994 defined competency as "a combination of motives, traits, self-concepts, attitudes, cognitive behavior skills (content knowledge)" that helps a performer to differentiate themselves superior from average performers. A performance may also describe the way in which an actor performs.
    Both of these parts can be improved and none of them should directly depend on your gear (set of characteristics, ~ progress), this is just knowledge+motoric-memory that, together with correct organization of progress, will create result about which you think, that you're talking.
    ps. In fact, from point of view of global design, all this is very much connected with one another. Starting with gameplay (hierarchy of customization) organization, progress+content teamwork and game's social part. You need to look further than specific problem in solving most problems.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-12-07 at 06:40 AM.
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  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    but the game is not allowed to be fun. It must only be spreadsheets.
    Those two aren't mutually exclusive though. Plenty of fun can be had even if the game is mostly spreadsheets. For some people, "fun" is lucking out on an OP piece of gear that will make them top DPS meters while not understanding the basics of their class (over-exaggerating here). For others, design like that is incredibly frustrating - I main Fury war, so my ultimate goal is getting 475 gettiku. And the only thing I can do towards that goal is completing a single 15+ dungeon each week and then sacrificing a lamb before opening the weekly chest. Chances are, I'll never get one (I haven't received single weapon from weekly cache across 3 characters this patch yet), and it just doesn't feel good. And if I do get it, I can assure you that the feeling I'll have won't be thrill or excitement, but simple "about effing time".

  14. #214

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Characteristics should enhance performance
    They do. The only difference between something like infinite stars and an auto attack is animation.

    To bolded part:

    Performance is an end result. It is not something you directly improve. You can improve your skill. You can try harder, which can also increase skill through experience. You can also just be lucky and have better performance.

    Effort is time investment. Route planning, gear farming, and simming are all effort based things. None of those things require skill. They don't even require you to actually play the game. They simply require knowledge, and you sit at an access point of near infinite knowledge. You only need to put in the time to do those properly. More skilled people will, of course, do it faster because their execution is better, and experienced people will also do it faster because they've, in theory, played long enough to understand some things are never going to work.

    Execution is the realm of skill. Yes, putting in more effort can make you more skillful through practice, and there is no substitute for practice.

    Luck is also a huge factor as well. I don't care how good at the game you are, you're doing bad DPS if you get targeted by the boss's nonsense every time.

    Also, no we didn't talk about anything. If you have something to say, say it. Don't link me to a thread where you've written multiple walls of text trying to scientifically create art. It doesn't work that way. Scientifically, something like "Papers, Please" shouldn't work, but it was hugely popular because it was in the right place at the right time. It's not unique. There are a lot of tedium simulators in the world. In that it isn't special. It's impossible to explain or predict if people will like something. Trying to do so is a waste of time.
    Last edited by Shaetha; 2020-06-09 at 10:24 AM.

  16. #216
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Shaetha
    Performance is an end result.
    Result is result, and performancehere is your behavior, is what you doing during encounter. There is no any second meaning. Performance is your skill to behave rightly/adequately in current encounter. Things like choose how to move, where, what to use and on whom: performance consists of class&role knowledge (global) = skill + teamwork and knowledge of encounter/content (local) = effort.
    An effective performance is determined by achievement skills and competency of the performer - level of skill and knowledge. Spencer and McClelland in 1994 defined competency as "a combination of motives, traits, self-concepts, attitudes, cognitive behavior skills (content knowledge)" that helps a performer to differentiate themselves superior from average performers. A performance may also describe the way in which an actor performs.
    Both of these parts can be improved and none of them should directly depend on your gear (set of characteristics, ~ progress), this is just knowledge+motoric-memory that, together with correct organization of progress, will create result about which you think, that you're talking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    I criticize ALL+ such items-spells-effects and mechanisms, be it AA, legendaries, or corruption - absolutely any. I can add to them work of toys, PvP perks, covenants+souldbinds+conduits (that's the only valid way they could be implemented) and other similar “limited” season/expansion/terrain heresy. It's just universal rule, this is foundation (here and here are examples of discussions of some problems that may appear when you don't take it into account).
    Shaetha
    Luck is also a huge factor as well.
    This is true, but this is exactly the part that will depend on your local knowledge. Your actions will be determined by them, and if you behave correctly (according to situation requirements), then adequate group (despite dependence of such on luck, situation itself isn't accidental, just part of rotation/encounter, which means predictable/expected/unavoidable, which means “if not you, then someone else will be unlucky", all you have to do is react correctly and this is where your skill+effort=performance is hidden) won't have any claims to you... = to your performance, although possibly could to your progress.
    Shaetha
    Don't link me to a thread
    These links aren't directly related to the topic, only to your mistake, therefore links aren't superfluous, but to quote or repeat would be mostly a thankless task. I didn't reproach you for not reading them, simply “voiced” an obvious fact.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2020-09-28 at 12:57 PM.
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  17. #217
    Dear lord no, leave corruption and azerite armor in the "well we tried" corner and lets us never speak of them again.

  18. #218
    It'll come back eventually. While I agree gear customization is going to be sorely needed, corruption was a poor implementation of it with very little choice until recently. They know players like the idea behind it but they know players don't enjoy the methods of getting it / how it was implemented with corruption.

    Blizzard is biding their time with this as they're implementing other progression mechanics outside of gear. They know people will top out their gear fairly quickly - and eventually people will want more. I'm just hoping when the system is put back in place it isn't a temporary one and they support wholesale, not a half-assed attempt.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootynuzzler View Post
    First off, it's the vocal majority. You can clearly see the evidence of that in the poll results of just this thread alone.
    This whole forum consists of the vocal minority. If the poll shows anything, it's that even among the vocal minority there's a lot of people who like corruptions. MMO-C forums has like 600 active members. Compare that to millions playing the game worldwide. No, it's not the majority.

    Did you not realize what you typed? Please, enlighten us on what incentive there is now when you have every item slot filled with a max ilvl item, with every piece enchanted, socketed, and boasting the best corruptions purchased from MOTHER? Or in other words, "after you got everything."
    The time to get every slot filled with a max level item, purchase every single best corruption for your class, buy all sockets for all that gear takes tens of clears of the raid, visions and dungeons is multiple times more than just getting bis items in the past. Even after you are done, you might want to farm some echoes for an offspec or whatever other currency drops in the raid/dungeon. In the current state of the game, there is very rarely a situation where you get absolutely no benefit from doing content of difficulty relevant to your character. In the past this was very frequently the case.
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  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Result is result, and performance is your behavior, is what you doing during encounter. There is no any second meaning. Performance is your skill to behave rightly/successfully in current encounter. Things like choose how to move, where, what to use and on whom: performance consists of class&role knowledge (global) = skill + teamwork and knowledge of encounter (local) = effort. Both of these parts can be improved and none of them should directly depend on your gear (set of characteristics, ~ progress), this is just knowledge that, together with [U]correct organization of progress
    Performance is the result. It is the final stop of all those other factors. That is the meaning of the word. Effort is how much you choose to put into it. Skill is the effectiveness of that effort. Luck is a multiplier on your final performance, similar to an ability with a random damage roll but on a macro scale. You can put in a huge amount of effort and still perform poorly. Conversely, you can not put in nearly as much effort and perform very well. Yes, people that put in more effort generally perform better, but they are not directly related.

    Gear represents your character's potential. Your performance is always going to be directly influenced by your gear. The entire concept of gear comes from a desire to improve performance in a given task. It is, in the end, another vital part of your toolkit. What you would consider "gear" in a video game is what makes humans able to survive in almost any conditions on the planet. It should get to do cool things too.

    It's fine if you don't like corruption, but the only thing corruption does that's unique to WoW is sharing drawbacks.(Side note: Yes, acquisition was less than ideal. That's not the point at hand. We don't live in the past.) Why aren't you complaining about the other items that increase your damage or the other ways items increase your damage? What is your actual problem with corruption?

    (now for the part that's just trying to be helpful)
    Don't bring irrelevant information. Imagine if you were asking where the milk is, and the person you asked tries to explain how the milk got there. That is basically what you're doing when linking posts with large amounts of text about a different topic to make a small point. It's disrespectful to the other person's time. Remember, we don't owe each other anything here. We are all equals in the discussion. It's your point. It's your job to lead the other person to it. Linking posts like that is never going to communicate your point. There are too many distractions. If you really must, quote or copy the relevant part and leave the rest. You don't need to cite sources your own opinion, and it is opinion.

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