Ele shaman core problem

[Razion]

I've seen mages save groups with a good kite.
I've seen rogues save groups with evasion tanking.
I've seen hunters save groups with pet tanking and kiting.
I've seen ele/enh save groups with off-heals and earth eles.

Class and spec tools can be different, and it doesn't always boil down to just Immunity vs Astral Shift.

I think the hybrid tax is actually in a good place right now.
Things like Artifact weapons and Essences/Azerite kind of act like a buffer for the hybrid tax. Makes it almost a pain to switch, but not entirely. This way all the similar roles can have more balanced kits in terms of utility and damage. At least, that's how I'm seeing it right now.

I think what's relevant in individual tiers and expansions says a lot more about encounter design - certain tiers favor ranged, some melee, some favor immunities, some off-healing. It really depends on the kind of content that's being made at the moment. I think, instead of saying something like Shaman need this or that, that people would like to see more fight variety where everyone can bring something useful and get a cool moment.

[music49]

The real issue is that everyone compares their game play to the top 1% world first players, and the hard fact is they are playing a different game then the majority of us. I play elemental shaman at maybe 60th percentile average and 80th at best on good pulls when I get proc trains of lava surge. and when comparing raw dps with the group I play with we are all on a similar level. If you start comparing everyone to the AVERAGE player classes are actually very balanced. At BfA launch elemental shaman was not the top dps spec. Therefore all the high end players avoided elemental and the data that was collected through out launch and even 1st teir says the highest parsing shamans were actually average players so the dps discrepancy was huge in data, but if higher end players played more elemental they would parse even higher bringing the gap down if that makes since.

Yes classes have issues I can get behind that that classes and specs need to be reworked at the core. But in the big picture, the core group of players of wow you are gonna have the top dps no matter what spec they play and you or going to have you bottom dps no matter what spec they play.

In my guild our top dps is frost mage and a survival hunter, both considered bottom specs of their classes, yet we are clearing heroic nya'lotha raid in under an hour and a half with multiple breaks "cause someones at the door" or "I need another beer"

So far the shadow land changes for elemental are looking great. Maelstorm worked in legion with our weapon but it started to feel like a ranged warrior, so I'm glad to go back to fulmination as a resource. Yes I'm worried about the covenant ability because I wanted to go Night Fae, but Necrolords is looking like it just functionally works better. Luckly we are still in alpha and have a few rounds of tuning and balancing to go.

To stay on topic of the OP elemental shamans power growth is more linear then other specs. so power gains feel bigger at the start of a teir, while most other specs are reversed making it feel weaker. Slow power gains at the start and then you hit a tipping point and all of the sudden you are hitting twice as hard. In the end we are reaching the same point but the scaling is different. I wouldn't call it broken or wrong. Maybe curve our scaling a little to help with the feeling of slower power gains.

[Kralljin]

I think the hybrid tax is actually in a good place right now.
Things like Artifact weapons and Essences/Azerite kind of act like a buffer for the hybrid tax. Makes it almost a pain to switch, but not entirely. This way all the similar roles can have more balanced kits in terms of utility and damage. At least, that's how I'm seeing it right now.

It's not really a hybrid tax because it essentially applies to every spec, not just hybrid.

that people would like to see more fight variety where everyone can bring something useful and get a cool moment.

Go ahead, come up with a mechanic that favors Shaman / Elemental in particular.
Unless that mechanic is "you die but all your CD's are reset", i can't really think of one that screams shaman.

Like, that's the issue, Shaman (or Elemental) don't have any spell or mechanics that stand out.

The only thing that Elemental right now has is funnel dps, which is extremely tied to Talents (EotE and Master of the Elements) and solely works because of the Azerite Trait Igneous Potential, which virtually doubles the damage of Lava burst if you have 3x 480 Azerite pieces with said trait.
So, unless Blizzard keeps that strong Lava burst, that will die as well.

Like, i've been raiding for over a decade by now and the primary issue is the fact that Blizzards overall encounter design does not work with their class design.

1.High Mobility Spells / Classes are far too strong or have way too few downsides (Mages are a good example right now)
2."Consistent" defense is not very valueable; short timed but powerful defense (immunities) are far too strong
3.Certain Classes / spec lack clear niches or said niches are simply aren't useful on any difficult encounter

In earlier days (Meaning Classic and TBC) Shaman stood out for its unique support, rather than a specific niche during an encounter, that's long gone by now.
Yet despite Blizzard no longer following the philosophy of "bring the player, not the class", Bloodlust is still not a spell restricted to Shaman and Shaman still have to talent into Windrush totem in every spec (meanwhile, Druid gets Stampeding roar baseline on every spec in SL).

Shaman as a class has an identity crisis ever since they nuked those unique support totems (which, mind you, happened over a decade ago), unless Blizzard comes up with an actual classwide niche, the viability of the Shaman class will once again entirely depend on Blizzards mood as far as number balance is concerned, which has rarely happened in Shaman's favour.

so I'm glad to go back to fulmination as a resource.

No offense, but i believe people overvalue this change so damn hard.

The introduction of Maelstrom didn't change you play Ele, nor its removal, it's still about keeping FS up, hit Lava burst on CD, spam LB inbetween and press ES once a WA tells you to.
Whether said resource is called "Maelstrom" or is a stack called "Fulmination" doesn't make much of a difference.
I'm going to replace my Maelstrom Bar WA with one for Fulmination and the other with one for the EQ cast time reduction, which in turn make the swap from using ES to EQ a bit more painful, that's about it.

It's not going to make Ele worse, nor really better to play.

[kosajk]

No offense, but i believe people overvalue this change so damn hard.

The introduction of Maelstrom didn't change you play Ele, nor its removal, it's still about keeping FS up, hit Lava burst on CD, spam LB inbetween and press ES once a WA tells you to.
Whether said resource is called "Maelstrom" or is a stack called "Fulmination" doesn't make much of a difference.
I'm going to replace my Maelstrom Bar WA with one for Fulmination and the other with one for the EQ cast time reduction, which in turn make the swap from using ES to EQ a bit more painful, that's about it.

It's not going to make Ele worse, nor really better to play.

yea i wonder why ppls think that removing of maelstrom will change anything when they implemented different measures(cd`s and different stacks to hoard) to keep game play basically the same or, imo from enh perspective, probably even worse

[aeonss]

Every class has their own problems, even things like stats because fire mage scales bad with crit too. What you are doing is nitpicking what everyone has then comparing top dps on *this* patch dps when ele shaman had whole 2 tier being OP, have you tried to think about any other class which never gone too spot?

[Jigga93]

other classes scale way better with corruption than we do. That said were perfectly viable if you arent in a Top Guild.

[ff50dccd-a222-42f3-a786]

And I always thought that ele shaman core problem is the ability to spam lava bursts .

[music49]

No offense, but i believe people overvalue this change so damn hard.

The introduction of Maelstrom didn't change you play Ele, nor its removal, it's still about keeping FS up, hit Lava burst on CD, spam LB inbetween and press ES once a WA tells you to.
Whether said resource is called "Maelstrom" or is a stack called "Fulmination" doesn't make much of a difference.
I'm going to replace my Maelstrom Bar WA with one for Fulmination and the other with one for the EQ cast time reduction, which in turn make the swap from using ES to EQ a bit more painful, that's about it.

It's not going to make Ele worse, nor really better to play.

The purpose of Maelstorm was to work with the Flame Shock rework in Legion removing the cooldown of it but the more maelsorm you had the longer duration applied. This was to help with target switching problem ele had in WoD.

No it didn't change gameplay to much but it was still a change for the better.

But they reverted the flame shock change in BfA but not the maelstorm (I do not know why, blizzard was not very communicative during alpha and beta of BfA) Maybe why ele had such a rough start at BfA launch. Couldn't say for sure.

Yes fulmination makes it a little more painful swapping between ES and EQ, but its pushing more importance to lightning bolt and ES instead of just being filler in between Lava burst procs. And with the recent alpha build ES and EQ have nothing to do with each other. making fulmination only work with ES, (chain lightning still reduces the cast time of EQ)

But yes we are nit picking at a minor change that will only affect the more skilled shamans, (at least in theory, in practice im still garbage) but isn't that why this forum exists? so nerds can nerd out about the dumbest things that still excite us.

We still have the rest of alpha, closed beta and open beta to go through so hopefully things will only get better.

[Kralljin]

but its pushing more importance to lightning bolt and ES instead of just being filler in between Lava burst procs.

That's just semantics, they already implemented this change basically in 8.1, where they nerfed ES and buffed LB.
The only way to make ES hit hard is to stack the Lava Shock trait, which is only really decent in multi dot situations.

That aside, is this really a *good* thing?
A hardhitting ES at least allows to burst down certain priority targets, what does a "hardhitting" filler do? Not much unless it ends up being an overall buff.
From a PvP perspective, it's a straight nerf, because you might kill people with ES, not LB.
You barely cast LB anyway due to the rather hectic nature of PvP.

On top of that, if you're getting chain procs from Lava burst, you're casting even less LB's (which is seemingly a "goal" for Elemental in SL).

Thinking about it, the entire idea of chain procs of Lava burst are now short circuiting the entire Fulmination system / ES interaction, which leaves any interaction with Earth shock dead in the water, because you need to cast Lightning bolt to generate Fulmination charges in order to make Earth Shock worth casting.

[unbound]

1) There aren't any real hybrid classes in Retail. Classes capable of healing (for example) can only cast a few weak heals before going OOM.

2) Scaling is a problem for multiple classes. Some scale more rapidly and some scale very poorly.

3) I think the primary problem here (at least from my perspective) is that all DPS classes are treated identically. The problem with "bring the player, not the class" mentality is that it places so much emphasis on simple output that unless Blizz does a good job with scaling, only some classes / specs become valuable. Why bring that Arcane Mage that does about 15% less damage than a BM Hunter (which has, I might add, a dirt simple rotation) overall at moderate scaling? Why bring that Ret Pally that does that does about 25% less damage than a Fire Mage overall at higher scaling?

Blizz picked a stupid concept, and they didn't even do a good job with it.

[Eleuss]

1) There aren't any real hybrid classes in Retail. Classes capable of healing (for example) can only cast a few weak heals before going OOM.

2) Scaling is a problem for multiple classes. Some scale more rapidly and some scale very poorly.

3) I think the primary problem here (at least from my perspective) is that all DPS classes are treated identically. The problem with "bring the player, not the class" mentality is that it places so much emphasis on simple output that unless Blizz does a good job with scaling, only some classes / specs become valuable. Why bring that Arcane Mage that does about 15% less damage than a BM Hunter (which has, I might add, a dirt simple rotation) overall at moderate scaling? Why bring that Ret Pally that does that does about 25% less damage than a Fire Mage overall at higher scaling?

Blizz picked a stupid concept, and they didn't even do a good job with it.

Even if you are right this wasnt supposed to be a mimimimi thread. And even my post sound like it but it was not my intention. Lets be constructive. Kinda like Kralljins prespective. For me what needs to be done on eles is straight up proc scaling with incoming gear for example starting with about 5 to 10% base proc chance and going up with incoming gear. Then we need crit damage scaling (maybe add it to mastery or crit).

[HCLM]

And you are still talking about non existent issue. Scaling is not a problem. Buffing dmg wont make ele a better spec. Ele is rarely seen in progression runs due to its low survivability and very minor raid utility. Not because they deal less dmg - because they dont.

[Eleuss]

And you are still talking about non existent issue. Scaling is not a problem. Buffing dmg wont make ele a better spec. Ele is rarely seen in progression runs due to its low survivability and very minor raid utility. Not because they deal less dmg - because they dont.

I dont get people saying it isnt Are you a joke, are you paid to spread misinformation ? Just finish leveling your shaman then come back after you check numbers and maybe play it some time.

[HCLM]

I dont get people saying it isnt Are you a joke, are you paid to spread misinformation ? Just finish leveling your shaman then come back after you check numbers and maybe play it some time.

Ele in Nya is not top dps not because Ele dmg is low, but because we dont have any great corruptions, and the fights are simply not the best for Ele. But keep telling yourself that if Blizzard buffs Ele dmg by 5% by tuning the scaling, Ele will become meta

Pls share you raiderio if you are so fast to assume other people are still lvling their shamans. Did you even do hc?

[music49]

And you are still talking about non existent issue. Scaling is not a problem. Buffing dmg wont make ele a better spec. Ele is rarely seen in progression runs due to its low survive-ability and very minor raid utility. Not because they deal less dmg - because they dont.

The scaling issue is best shown in TW's when all the sudden a melee you 10/10 times out dps in current content is carrying you in TW when they SCALE you down. The problem doesn't lie with shamans, its how certain classes scale with certain stats and are able to do things like take 30 mages and melt a raid boss in seconds for what should be a couple minute long fight or SOLO group content.

I think shaman in general have some of the best utility in the game. Capacitor totem for adds, lowest CD for and interrupt, slow totem, really powerful (when you have mana) heal, earth totem that can tank when you panic during a wipe with another defensive.

Yes we don't any immunities but we do have decent survive-ability. I don't believe that is the deal breaker for high-end progression

I dont get people saying it isnt Are you a joke, are you paid to spread misinformation ? Just finish leveling your shaman then come back after you check numbers and maybe play it some time.

Not really contributing to the topic.

[Eleuss]

The scaling issue is best shown in TW's when all the sudden a melee you 10/10 times out dps in current content is carrying you in TW when they SCALE you down. The problem doesn't lie with shamans, its how certain classes scale with certain stats and are able to do things like take 30 mages and melt a raid boss in seconds for what should be a couple minute long fight or SOLO group content.

I think shaman in general have some of the best utility in the game. Capacitor totem for adds, lowest CD for and interrupt, slow totem, really powerful (when you have mana) heal, earth totem that can tank when you panic during a wipe with another defensive.

Yes we don't any immunities but we do have decent survive-ability. I don't believe that is the deal breaker for high-end progression



Not really contributing to the topic.

You are right on both. I am really sorry. I speak of my perspective of scaling and fairnes. How i feel left behind investing more hours in my charachter than a mage for example and still doing worse. And i really am not mad purely because of the numbers. If you go deeper the firemage ( best example i can think of ) really plays more fluid and feels more fun with progressing trough this game. Thats what hurts me.

[TerryWithSpices]

I have a solution. You wan't to DPS right so Blizzard should remove your heals right? No you like to have those.
What blizzard should have done long ago was to remove massive healing for DPS but still, Do you think this games end game is PvE and all classes should be homogenized? Rethink that thank you. This games end game has been PvP and ever since TBC the pleb majority has whined and bitched that they can't have it all. My take - They should have just grouped up more or stop playing their respective class, (all class should have strenght and weaknesses, it's how you adapt and overcome that makes this end game intriguing). A shaman is a buffer in his core and the game may change but that will never change.

[Kralljin]

I think shaman in general have some of the best utility in the game. Capacitor totem for adds, lowest CD for and interrupt, slow totem,

In any decent group, any of these are already covered.

Cap Totem? Monk / WL / DH / Prot Warr also have an AoE stun, one without delay i might add.
Interrupt? Every Melee class has an interrupt, the slightly lower CD isn't worth a lot if you have so many interrupts.
Slow Totem? Hunters got that as well, as do Warriors and some other class(es) i'm forgetting right now.

Shaman has utility, problem is that nothing of it is really unique.

really powerful (when you have mana) heal

Okay, now you're just joking.

My Healing Surge heals for like 50k...on 500-600k Healthpool.

[music49]

In any decent group, any of these are already covered.

Cap Totem? Monk / WL / DH / Prot Warr also have an AoE stun, one without delay i might add.
Interrupt? Every Melee class has an interrupt, the slightly lower CD isn't worth a lot if you have so many interrupts.
Slow Totem? Hunters got that as well, as do Warriors and some other class(es) i'm forgetting right now.

Shaman has utility, problem is that nothing of it is really unique.

Okay, now you're just joking.

My Healing Surge heals for like 50k...on 500-600k Healthpool.

Yes, ideally interrupts should be handled by tanks>melee>ranged>healers. but almost every class has one. Not every group will be meta though and sometimes ranged will have to interrupt. Having the short CD means ele can solo quite a few interrupts that require rotations if you don't have a shaman. One example is il'gynoth where a shaman can solo one of the organs interrupts instead of having to send two people.

As for the healing surge it not a substitute for a healer, but it still good enough to help out a ton when things get a little dicey. And with high crit builds 9/10 of my heals crit will over 100k

[Kralljin]

Not every group will be meta though and sometimes ranged will have to interrupt.

What Classes don't have a baseline interrupt?
SP, Balance and Demo Locks.

That's it, if you have 3 dps+1 Tank, you will have at commonly have four interrupts available, the shorter CD isn't exactly helpful there.
That leaves out raiding, where it's even less of a thing to stand out.

One example is il'gynoth where a shaman can solo one of the organs interrupts instead of having to send two people.

You can only be on interrupting duty as Ele on the Organ you're focusing, where Melees can interrupt without issue - because they don't have to interrupt their rotation to interrupt.

And with high crit builds 9/10 of my heals crit will over 100k

Even 100k aren't a lot, because in relevant situations, things do far more damage than 100k.