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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    What Classes don't have a baseline interrupt?
    SP, Balance and Demo Locks.

    That's it, if you have 3 dps+1 Tank, you will have at commonly have four interrupts available, the shorter CD isn't exactly helpful there.
    That leaves out raiding, where it's even less of a thing to stand out.
    You're right ele shaman should never interrupt in group content ever from now on. Ill keep that in mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You can only be on interrupting duty as Ele on the Organ you're focusing, where Melees can interrupt without issue - because they don't have to interrupt their rotation to interrupt.
    You are not killing all three organs at the same time so instead of sending two dps to the one your not killing your only sending one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Even 100k aren't a lot, because in relevant situations, things do far more damage than 100k.
    Again not a substitute for a healer, but still good enough for survival

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    You're right ele shaman should never interrupt in group content ever from now on. Ill keep that in mind
    Hyperboles don't you help you, but it's absolutely better if your Melees are interrupting because they aren't hardcasting constantly.
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    You are not killing all three organs at the same time so instead of sending two dps to the one your not killing your only sending one.
    That's why you send stuff like the WL pet & Tanks onto those that you don't want to kill.
    If you put an Ele in there, they're doing no dps at all because they're out of range from the Organ you want to kill.


    Heck, even Mages are better suited there because they can dps => Shimmer => Interrupt => Shimmer back.

    Range is also a factor on Mythic even on Organ you're focusing if you play the no dispel strat, because the 25yard range can be a real pain there.
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    Again not a substitute for a healer, but still good enough for survival
    In fringe situations.
    I'd rather have Exhilaration than Healing surge in dungeon / raids.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-06-15 at 03:42 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Hyperboles don't you help you, but it's absolutely better if your Melees are interrupting because they aren't hardcasting constantly.
    I'm being extreme here. Yes, tanks and melee are better suited for interrupts but casters can still help out when needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    That's why you send stuff like the WL pet & Tanks onto those that you don't want to kill.
    If you put an Ele in there, they're doing no dps at all because they're out of range from the Organ you want to kill.


    Heck, even Mages are better suited there because they can dps => Shimmer => Interrupt => Shimmer back.

    Range is also a factor on Mythic even on Organ you're focusing if you play the no dispel strat, because the 25yard range can be a real pain there.
    We send both tanks to one, me to the middle one, and everyone else to the one we are killing. We aren't top teir players so it this is the strat that worked best for us.

    I'm just saying wind shear being on a short CD lets you have one person handle the interrupts instead of setting up a rotation. Same with some mobs in Mythic +. It's just easier to tell the other dps to interrupt what they can and I'll focus on the casts that need to be interrupted if no one gets it. Obviously after a certain level you'll need a rotation, but at that level you aren't looking for advice or new ways to play the game.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    Obviously after a certain level you'll need a rotation, but at that level you aren't looking for advice or new ways to play the game.
    Point is not to oversell things.
    Wind shear is nice and all but in PvE just nothing special, it's a slightly better interrupt, that's it but nothing more.

    Don't make people believe they will be taken because of "Shaman utility".

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Point is not to oversell things.
    Wind shear is nice and all but in PvE just nothing special, it's a slightly better interrupt, that's it but nothing more.

    Don't make people believe they will be taken because of "Shaman utility".
    Im not trying to over sell shamans on 1 interrupt though.

    I'm stating that Shamans power gain is more linear compared to most dps which is exponential which is what the OP was talking about.

    I'm also stating that even with that shamans are viable in 99.9% of all content with that dps.

    I'm also adding that shamans have the shortest CD for an interrupt (all three specs)
    a knock back which doubles as an interrupt (all three specs)
    an AoE stun which doubles as an interrupt (all three specs)
    an AoE slow (all three specs)
    a CC (all three specs)
    and then a AoE root (for resto)

    An earth elemental that can tank rares that usually require groups with an ability that reduces 40% incoming damage (elemental)
    Astral Shift another damage reduction for 40% all damage (all three specs)
    Ghost wolf instant 30% increase movement speed until canceled and can't be lowered under 100% (all three specs)
    A self-resurrection that doesn't count as a battle rez. (all three specs)

    and a heal that does nothing when all else fails. (all three specs, stronger for enhancement and resto)

  6. #46
    Maybe to add something to the actual discussion at hand.

    Over the past weeks i've been thinking about the overall Elemental changes in SL and quite frankly think that there is a rather big hole in Blizzards logic / design.

    Blizzard has stated that Elemental should focus on multi dotting Flame shock in order to get a lot of Lava surge procs.
    But we want the focus of the rotation to be about managing your Flame Shock debuff on multiple targets to maximize the potential of Lava Burst through Lava Surge procs. Lightning Bolt, and consequently Earth Shock, are meant to be a flavorful but secondary part of the single-target rotation.
    In other words, "funneling" damage into a single target by multi dotting Flame shock.

    At first glance, this is nothing new, as this has been a thing for Elemental since 8.1 and Elemental extremely excelled at it in BoD / CoS and EP.
    However, crucial pieces will be missing in Shadowlands.

    First off, the obvious loss of (rental) power.
    With Azerite retiring, you will lose Igneous Potential, a rather massive hit as having this trait thrice on appropriate pieces will ~double your Lava burst damage.
    That in itself is already a massive hit, as Lava burst makes up a not too insignificant portion of your damage.

    Furthermore, you will lose Lava shock, a trait was absolutely amazing in those Flame shock multi dot situations.

    Not only needs Blizzard to compensate the loss of the Igneous Potential trait, but also Lava shock in those situations, if the primary goal is aiming at back to back Lava Surge procs, Lava burst needs to hit for an insane amount.

    Second, the Flame shock duration nerf.
    In the current Alpha build, Flame shock's duration is 18 seconds, not 24 as on live.
    That represents an obvious nerf, now you're only barely able to multi dot three target at most, which also further cuts into the potency of that "funnel" niche, less FS running means less Lava surge procs.

    Lastly, the removal of Maelstrom.
    Some people call this a good change, but this where the removal of Maelstrom will be a real kick in the nuts.
    Currently, it works pretty simple:
    You multi dot FS=>gets lots of Lava surge procs=>spam Lvb=>get a lot of Maelstrom=>constantly dish out Earth shocks.

    In Shadowlands it (currently) looks like this:
    You multi dot FS=>get lots of Lava surge proc=>spam Lvb and...that's it.
    You don't generate Fulmination charges via Lava burst, meaning you will rarely press Earth shock as there is currently no passive generation of Fulmination charges besides Lightning shield.
    You can generate a few charges if you're unlucky with Lava surge procs and have to weave in Lightning bolt, but that's not really the goal.
    (Also, Icefury nor Frost shock buffed by it generate Fulmination charges, so that source is gone as well)

    It also nerfs the synergy between the Master of the Elements talents and said "funneling" results in barely any Earth shock(let alone one beefed up with 3x Lava shock).
    You still have Icefury and Stormkeeper but they're both tied to a CD and not resource dependant like Earth shock currently.

    In general, Blizzards choice of niche couldn't have been poorer, as this entire funneling niche relies on borrowed power via Azerite traits (Igneous Potential and Lava shock) alongside a rather set amount of talents.
    Said funneling also barely works without Echo of the Elements, while talents such as Storm Elemenetal and Ascendance aren't synergizing with this at all.
    (Mind you, Surge of Power is also not functional unless you can consistently generate 6 Maelstrom charges.)

    This entire idea of funneling was the result of a bandaid solution: (the infamous 150% buff to Igneous Potential), yet Blizzard decided to turn the bandaid into a core aspect without realizing that said bandaid will be ripped off soon, while at the same time also demolishing the bit of synergy it had with the base Elemental mechanics (Maelstrom).

    The only thing in SL that seriously supports this change (not taking any Covenants abilities into account) is the Fire Elemental change - yet that already had synergy with funneling, as a lot of flame shocks meant a lot of Maelstrom while Fire Elemental is up.
    I seriously doubt that this one change will stem the tide against the massive breaking of synergy that is going to happen if those changes go live.

    Of course, Legendaries are still to come, but as hinted above already, this "funneling" niche already relies on a certain talent choice, if Blizzard manages to salvage that niche via Legendaries, it will be obvious that those Legendaries will be the mandatory ones, while the other ones need to be straight nuts or remain relegated to be used during AoE or some fringe situation.
    In other words, you need to pick certain talents alongside possible legendaries in order to get "your baseline niche" going, that's a bit of a silly situation to say the least.

    Overall, that doesn't make me very excited for Elemental, Blizzard intended goal of funneling does not line with the changes they've been implementing - on the contrary in fact.
    Unless Blizzard changes things, Elemental might have to rely on benelovent numbers tuning on Blizzards end - which has rarely worked in favour of Elemental during the X.0 Patches.

    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    -snip-
    Mate, now you're just listing things for the sake of it.
    Shaman utility is not great because nothing of that is really unique and its defense is average at best.

    That's just how it, i have no need to argue further with you over this topic.
    You can argue over "it's viable in 99% of all content", but also a non argument, you can do the vast majority of content even with an extremely scuffed setup - it's just no benchmark on its own, it just tells you that said content isn't particularly difficult.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-06-15 at 10:19 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Mate, now you're just listing things for the sake of it.
    Shaman utility is not great because nothing of that is really unique and its defense is average at best.

    That's just how it, i have no need to argue further with you over this topic.
    You can argue over "it's viable in 99% of all content", but also a non argument, you can do the vast majority of content even with an extremely scuffed setup - it's just no benchmark on its own, it just tells you that said content isn't particularly difficult.
    I think your missing the point here. I agree with you that none of those abilities are unique...but shaman have ALL of them. Shamans are not the best at anything, but good at everything.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    I think your missing the point here. I agree with you that none of those abilities are unique...but shaman have ALL of them. Shamans are not the best at anything, but good at everything.
    ...goes back to point one.
    I'm repeating myself by saying that this isn't worth a lot in a group setting because you can cover almost all of this without ever bringing a Shaman, as multiple classes have similiar / same spells as well.

  9. #49
    You're not seeing the point of this whole conversation.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    You're not seeing the point of this whole conversation.
    What started this conversation was that someone pointed out that Shaman doesn't have a lot of selling points for high end progression (which is true).
    To which you replied
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    I think shaman in general have some of the best utility in the game.
    Which is, as explained multiple times by now, untrue because you should take what other people bring into account whenever you say "best XXX in the game".

    Which makes me realize that you also wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    Yes we don't any immunities but we do have decent survive-ability. I don't believe that is the deal breaker for high-end progression
    And that tells me that you don't have a lot of experience as far as high-end progression is concerned.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Which is, as explained multiple times by now, untrue because you should take what other people bring into account whenever you say "best XXX in the game".
    Again you're missing the point. Except for wind shear, individually each ability is average at best. But when you look at the WHOLE tool kit, no other class brings as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And that tells me that you don't have a lot of experience as far as high-end progression is concerned.
    I never claimed to be?

    My experience consists of maining a shaman since BC was current content and I've played wow since vanilla.
    I've gotten at least AOTC for the last 3 expansions (except crucible of the storm, personal reasons).
    I consistently get 70th percentile or higher (expect Ny'lotha, had to heal for guild)
    And I'm ranked in the top 50,000 out of the 250,000 ranked shamans in mythic+ in the world (which I only do the bare minimum for the weekly chest)

    No I'm the best in the world, but I can pull my own weight and carry a little more. And I'm overweight so I guess that's a lot

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    Again you're missing the point.
    No, I'm not and it is getting rather tiresome to repeat the fact that your group comp matters as well.

    You cannot judge that by looking at it in a vacuum.
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    I never claimed to be?
    Then maybe you shouldn't comment in it, because anyone that essentially says "Immunities aren't a big deal in high-end progression", really has not a lot of experience on that subject.

    For example, we have a final boss currently where having an immunity is a pretty huge benefit.
    That ignores the fact that Immunities are universally good, even without mechanics that essentially are "soak this with an immunity or GTFO".

    Failed on Ra-den and got by the Lightning by accident despite being part of the rotation? Anyone who doesn't have an immunity now causes issues for their raid.
    Mage hits Ice block and pretends that nothing happened.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Maybe to add something to the actual discussion at hand.

    Over the past weeks i've been thinking about the overall Elemental changes in SL and quite frankly think that there is a rather big hole in Blizzards logic / design.

    Blizzard has stated that Elemental should focus on multi dotting Flame shock in order to get a lot of Lava surge procs.

    In other words, "funneling" damage into a single target by multi dotting Flame shock.

    At first glance, this is nothing new, as this has been a thing for Elemental since 8.1 and Elemental extremely excelled at it in BoD / CoS and EP.
    However, crucial pieces will be missing in Shadowlands.

    First off, the obvious loss of (rental) power.
    With Azerite retiring, you will lose Igneous Potential, a rather massive hit as having this trait thrice on appropriate pieces will ~double your Lava burst damage.
    That in itself is already a massive hit, as Lava burst makes up a not too insignificant portion of your damage.

    Furthermore, you will lose Lava shock, a trait was absolutely amazing in those Flame shock multi dot situations.

    Not only needs Blizzard to compensate the loss of the Igneous Potential trait, but also Lava shock in those situations, if the primary goal is aiming at back to back Lava Surge procs, Lava burst needs to hit for an insane amount.

    Second, the Flame shock duration nerf.
    In the current Alpha build, Flame shock's duration is 18 seconds, not 24 as on live.
    That represents an obvious nerf, now you're only barely able to multi dot three target at most, which also further cuts into the potency of that "funnel" niche, less FS running means less Lava surge procs.

    Lastly, the removal of Maelstrom.
    Some people call this a good change, but this where the removal of Maelstrom will be a real kick in the nuts.
    Currently, it works pretty simple:
    You multi dot FS=>gets lots of Lava surge procs=>spam Lvb=>get a lot of Maelstrom=>constantly dish out Earth shocks.

    In Shadowlands it (currently) looks like this:
    You multi dot FS=>get lots of Lava surge proc=>spam Lvb and...that's it.
    You don't generate Fulmination charges via Lava burst, meaning you will rarely press Earth shock as there is currently no passive generation of Fulmination charges besides Lightning shield.
    You can generate a few charges if you're unlucky with Lava surge procs and have to weave in Lightning bolt, but that's not really the goal.
    (Also, Icefury nor Frost shock buffed by it generate Fulmination charges, so that source is gone as well)

    It also nerfs the synergy between the Master of the Elements talents and said "funneling" results in barely any Earth shock(let alone one beefed up with 3x Lava shock).
    You still have Icefury and Stormkeeper but they're both tied to a CD and not resource dependant like Earth shock currently.

    In general, Blizzards choice of niche couldn't have been poorer, as this entire funneling niche relies on borrowed power via Azerite traits (Igneous Potential and Lava shock) alongside a rather set amount of talents.
    Said funneling also barely works without Echo of the Elements, while talents such as Storm Elemenetal and Ascendance aren't synergizing with this at all.
    (Mind you, Surge of Power is also not functional unless you can consistently generate 6 Maelstrom charges.)

    This entire idea of funneling was the result of a bandaid solution: (the infamous 150% buff to Igneous Potential), yet Blizzard decided to turn the bandaid into a core aspect without realizing that said bandaid will be ripped off soon, while at the same time also demolishing the bit of synergy it had with the base Elemental mechanics (Maelstrom).

    The only thing in SL that seriously supports this change (not taking any Covenants abilities into account) is the Fire Elemental change - yet that already had synergy with funneling, as a lot of flame shocks meant a lot of Maelstrom while Fire Elemental is up.
    I seriously doubt that this one change will stem the tide against the massive breaking of synergy that is going to happen if those changes go live.

    Of course, Legendaries are still to come, but as hinted above already, this "funneling" niche already relies on a certain talent choice, if Blizzard manages to salvage that niche via Legendaries, it will be obvious that those Legendaries will be the mandatory ones, while the other ones need to be straight nuts or remain relegated to be used during AoE or some fringe situation.
    In other words, you need to pick certain talents alongside possible legendaries in order to get "your baseline niche" going, that's a bit of a silly situation to say the least.

    Overall, that doesn't make me very excited for Elemental, Blizzard intended goal of funneling does not line with the changes they've been implementing - on the contrary in fact.
    Unless Blizzard changes things, Elemental might have to rely on benelovent numbers tuning on Blizzards end - which has rarely worked in favour of Elemental during the X.0 Patches.


    Mate, now you're just listing things for the sake of it.
    Shaman utility is not great because nothing of that is really unique and its defense is average at best.

    That's just how it, i have no need to argue further with you over this topic.
    You can argue over "it's viable in 99% of all content", but also a non argument, you can do the vast majority of content even with an extremely scuffed setup - it's just no benchmark on its own, it just tells you that said content isn't particularly difficult.
    it seems to me that the blizz does not have clear ideas on how to carry on Ele Sham .. the changes made so far do not seem good to me. fulmination is simply another way of calling the malestrom, moreover with the exception of fulmination / seismic thunder the 4 elemental layers are currently not very correlated with each other and sometimes even compete with each other. For example, the Fire part does not iterate in the least with the other elements except Mote (which is a talent), the earth part only interacts with the Surge of Power talent, the frost part is completely detached from the other elements.
    There is no cohesion between the elements but only a great confusion.

    I also agree that Ele Sham is one of the classes that has one of the worst scalings in the game.
    This is due to 3 factors:
    1) Mastery, this is currently among the worst masteries of the game on a par with that of the Arms Warrior who, not surprisingly, have just changed in SL
    2) No Big CD Base Line
    3) He has no passive or active ability to increase his secondary stat base line or via talent. There are some via talent (Ele Blast, Unlimited Power) but they are so under tune that they are almost never chosen.
    Last edited by CiccioBello; 2020-06-19 at 02:48 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    it seems to me that the blizz does not have clear ideas on how to carry on Ele Sham .. the changes made so far do not seem good to me.
    I think they have an idea, it's just that they fail to realize that said niche they've created in BfA for Ele is extremely reliant on Azerite traits.

    And the Maelstrom change was obviously driven by the "too many specs have a spender / filler rotations", despite the fact that Elemental worked that way since Cata and Maelstrom only solidified the interaction, rather than create it.
    Then again, Elemental is no stranger in becoming a victim of those "philosophy changes" (Remember, "No casters shouldn't cast on the move"; "Only Caster with Blink like Spells should be Mage").
    Changes that were mostly done to fulfill a general design philosophy without any regard on how it's going to affect Elemental.
    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    i
    1) Mastery, this is currently among the worst masteries of the game on a par with that of the Arms Warrior who, not surprisingly, have just changed in SL
    A larger portion of our damage is nowadays made up by spells that aren't scaling that well with Mastery (or at all).

    Back in Cata / MoP, your primary damage sources were obviously Lightning bolt and Lava burst, with Earth shock / Fulmination not being that relevant.
    (Talents such as Icefury & Stormkeeper also have a rather poor interaction with Mastery).

    Now you have ES being more prominent, alongside Essences and Corruption.
    On top of that, Mastery also seems rather undertuned in terms of raw numbers.

    Arms Mastery changing is nothing new, they get a new one almost every expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by CiccioBello View Post
    I also agree that Ele Sham is one of the classes that has one of the worst scalings in the game.
    While i haven't talked really about scaling, i don't think it's as big of an issue as it used to be.

    It's just painfully obvious that Blizzard didn't intend for the Essence and Corruption system, especially the latter gives any spec that scales remotely decent with secondary stats far too much power.

    It's an issue, but i don't view as a big one if not for the Corruption system.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    No, I'm not and it is getting rather tiresome to repeat the fact that your group comp matters as well.

    You cannot judge that by looking at it in a vacuum.
    I never said it didn't matter -_-

    I'm saying that having a shaman helps LOWER the need for a perfect comp, not remove it entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Then maybe you shouldn't comment in it, because anyone that essentially says "Immunities aren't a big deal in high-end progression", really has not a lot of experience on that subject.
    I said it wouldn't be the deal-breaker when it came to higher end raiding. Of course having an immunity is a big deal, but I am saying shamans bring way more than not having an immunity

  16. #56
    imho i just wish i could focus on lighting dam vs spaming lavabursts for my gameplay!

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    I'm saying that having a shaman helps LOWER the need for a perfect comp, not remove it entirely.
    The conumdrum here is that Shaman is not part of the "perfect comp".
    And_again_none of the utility provides is even rare.

    If a Shaman is the only that brings in those tools, it just means you have one terrible comp.
    Quote Originally Posted by music49 View Post
    but I am saying shamans bring way more than not having an immunity
    None of that utility is really relevant.

    Like mate, i'm hardcore raiding since cata and anybody who has a clue of hardcore raiding will tell you that both Shaman specs have been more often than not considered meme specs in that particular bracket.
    Their not so great defense, (usually) at best average dps and lack of unique utility being the primary reason.

    Looking here at the past, Shaman is one of the worst Classes you can choose if you want to play dps as hardcore raider.
    Them being good is more the exception than the rule and has been post TBC nearly always been the result of them actually decent numbers every once in a while, not their utility.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The conumdrum here is that Shaman is not part of the "perfect comp".
    And_again_none of the utility provides is even rare.

    If a Shaman is the only that brings in those tools, it just means you have one terrible comp.

    None of that utility is really relevant.

    Like mate, i'm hardcore raiding since cata and anybody who has a clue of hardcore raiding will tell you that both Shaman specs have been more often than not considered meme specs in that particular bracket.
    Their not so great defense, (usually) at best average dps and lack of unique utility being the primary reason.

    Looking here at the past, Shaman is one of the worst Classes you can choose if you want to play dps as hardcore raider.
    Them being good is more the exception than the rule and has been post TBC nearly always been the result of them actually decent numbers every once in a while, not their utility.
    This is sadly true. DH's darkness is better than all of the shaman utility combined for any content available. I like to play the underdog but some expensions have been a little rough.

    Seems like having earthen wall totem and spirit link totem as baseline is out of question. I don't see why. Even if elemental / enhancement had both, they wouldn't still be considered better than a mage, rogue or DH in mythic+ scenerio or pvp.

    I really like blizzard taking their time to make something out of shamans with alpha. However without some actual utility for the group (like spirit link totem) AND comparable dps, they will remain to be meme spec. Earthbind totem, capacitor totem... These are not utilities.

  19. #59
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    I've been away from the game for so long. TLDR, is the elemental shaman strong in the current expansion?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by benrayburn View Post
    I've been away from the game for so long. TLDR, is the elemental shaman strong in the current expansion?
    Search your feelings, you know the answer already

    The actual answer is sub-meh in raids, no es bueno in PvP and a resounding OK in M+. So pretty standard for shaman.

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