"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[Itisamuh]

I think they should just lock people into a Covenant until they reach exalted with them, then allow them to pick another, rinse and repeat, while allowing them to switch freely between the one they currently have selected and any they already have exalted with; something like:

1st Covenant - Player is locked into it until exalted.
2nd Covenant - Player can switch between it and 1st Covenant, locked out of 3rd and 4th until 2nd is also exalted.
3rd Covenant - Player can switch between it, 1st and 2nd Covenant, only locked out of 4th until 3rd is exalted.
4th Covenant - Player can now switch freely between them all.

The fact is, there will be a lot of elitist min maxing nonsense forcing people into choosing specific ones if they want to do anything high end, so it would be better to work around that, while still having choices be relatively meaningful for awhile. Plus, you know they will be continuously tuning Covenants and Soulbinds as the expansion goes on. It would be pretty awful design to lock people into one that might start off good, but end up crappy later.

[Kralljin]

We only need each other for higher level difficulties of the same content we can solo or self-enable our access to through queueing.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding your point, but i feel like you're missing something important.

1.Automated queues are a breeding ground of toxicity
Throwing in people with very different approaches randomnly into the same group is an absolutely terrible idea.
It's a lesson learned from LFD, a person who just wants a relaxing dungeon run shouldn't be thrown into a guy who wants pace through at breakneck speed.
Neither of them plays the game "wrong" but they're wrong for playing together, because their expectations towards the activity vary quite heavily.

There's a reason why Blizzard has almost entirely moved away from automated queues and removed any incentive for more engaged people to go into "lower difficulty" content.

2.The game nowadays seems to a favour the "solo" / pug approach
Outside of Mythic raiding (ironically) and your F & F guild, you don't have that many actual guilds anymore, because the game doesn't require or reward that approach.
Why join a guild, go through the hassle of abiding by a fixed schedule if you just can raid whenever you want to via groupfinder tool?

Look towards Classic, content there is indeed pugable, yet a lot of people join guilds.
I'll leave it up to anyone to find the reasons why.

I generally argue that people need to look for similiar minded people, yet the game does in no shape or form actually encourage that outside of the pug scene having too steep requirement.
Which ironically leads most people to complain over these requirements, rather than looking for like minded people.

3.Min/maxing does not correlate with difficulty
It correlates with the gap between the "best" and "worst" option, the bigger that is, the more likely people will choose to min/max, whether it's needed or not.
Again, looking at Classic, Mage and Warriors are the most popular class (which happen to be the strongest classes in Classic) while Druid is the least popular one (which is generally seen as the weakest class).

[Molvonos]

Being competitive is FUN for a lot of ego-driven people out there, to which there are plenty. No one cares about the 95% of wow players other than the fact that they help highlight how bad most players are at the game and make orange parses easier to obtain so I can look at it and be proud of myself. If you want to stroke your ego, you have to follow the meta and pray to RNGsus that you get forges.

There's a difference though.

There's nothing wrong with being competitive, but when it starts becoming a point of contention and anger, you (in general) need to step back and reevaluate.

Is that extra 1% going to really help you push from a 14 to 15? Nah, it's not. Is that 1% going to make you look like a hero when you're the last one alive on a raid boss you've wiped to repeatedly? It might, but it's not going to help the myriad of flaws that allowed that situation to happen (Bad tanking, bad healing, bad dpsing by everyone else, etc etc). And that 1% definitely ain't gonna help you in PvP, where it's not all about the LEET DEEPS.

A lot of people forgot what the game was about a long time ago. Have fun with your characters, make them look bad-ass, derpy as shit, or a fun mix inbetween. Find new and interesting ways to use the abilities given to you (Kultiran: Proc TD, Stormhammer stun into Haymaker, throws them straight through the TD for multiple hits).

[Omedon]

Maybe i'm misunderstanding your point, but i feel like you're missing something important.

1.Automated queues are a breeding ground of toxicity.

Ok, but turn off chat (that's what I do, language barriers="communication can't be mandatory" on those difficulties), do it once for the quest, and don't go back. The point is, you can see it without others. I just "don't speak english" for that one run.

As for the rest, you're entitled to your opinion, I just disagree with most if not all of it. But that's ok.

[Dismayxz]

That's not entirely true tho. Look at warriors for example. Necrolord gives you and 4 allies in your group 20% health and 50% attack speed for up to 30 sec.

Imagine that in a M+ scenario where you stack meele and a holy pally that's just insane. plus warrior already has a solid movement kit.

And that's an on-paper scenario. It's Attack Speed, not Haste. Your abilities will be largely unaffected as are the others in your group. It mostly affects resource regen, so the warrior itself. Maybe a DH if Demon Blades is suddenly a viable thing in Shadowlands at the time. The only gain for your group comes from extra auto-attack resource, the odd RPPM procc triggered by an extra attack (which for most melee's is probably already capped on it's RPPM way before the banner goes down). Auto-attack contribution to damage for most melees who are viable -now- (and likely will be in one way or another in SL) isn't as big to warrant a what-... 2 min CD? For Auto-attacks? Which don't even cleave in most cases? At that point your doing it for roughly the same damage output you'd gain just by having Spear or Condemn Executes cleaving and some extra HP every other pull, which Rally can take care of as well on a similar CD. I get what you are trying to say in that on some classes the movement from those covenant choices doesn't matter for shit compared to the actual abilities, but Banner is a very poor example at the moment, ESPECIALLY in M+. Atm. you'd never consider not using Spear or Condemn in favor of Banner on Fury, even with your group taken into account. The same goes for Arms, why would you ever skip out on Condemn boosting a no-cd Execute for more periods of a fight, including SS cleaving it.

[Kralljin]

Ok, but turn off chat (that's what I do, language barriers="communication can't be mandatory" on those difficulties), do it once for the quest, and don't go back. The point is, you can see it without others. I just "don't speak english" for that one run.

As for the rest, you're entitled to your opinion, I just disagree with most if not all of it. But that's ok.

If your best suggestion to solve an issue is to "just close your eyes", then it's probably for the best we end this discussion before it even goes on further.

[EbaumsTipster]

Could you please provide a source on the changing of other utility abilities? I can't seem to find anything either here or on Wowhead

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ha-Build-34615

While Blizzard hasn't made a statement, there is a blurb on the covenant abilities.

Unburden (New) Dissolve into pure anima, increasing your movement speed to 300% and propelling you forward for 20 sec. Kyrian. Kyrian. Instant.

Not sure if it's been replaced already on Alpha but this was the Kyrian ability at Blizzcon, before it was changed to the steward. Either it's being replaced or it just showed up in the code for whatever reason.

[Omedon]

If your best suggestion to solve an issue is to "just close your eyes",

For toxicity? You betcha. I ain't gotta look at that, and neither do you. No one does, when we have options to prune it. But I understand that us beating the dead horse with our divergent opinions isn't a good use of our time.

[neocount]

We haven't even seen the full system yet. I see a LOT of speculation from people without all the information.

[Marrilaife]

I generally argue that people need to look for similiar minded people,

This is basically impossible.

You have the group of hardcores who min max, you have the group of casuals that don't care to min max and run through casual content, but when you try to find the golden middle, for me it would be something like "players who are neither great nor trash at this game and have pretty chilled approach to the mix max subject", but every time I tried to find that it ended up with "players who are generally very mediocre but think they're god send world top quality players, whore their asses off on the meters, and are obsessed with min maxing and grinding way past the requirements of the rank they push".

In the last guild I left I was ridiculed for not rolling the profession the guild master and his clique considered "BIS" (I had jc / engi over armor crafting profession), I was ridiculed for not having an essence obtained from rated pvp to do raiding, I was ridiculed I wasn't farming 5 mask runs in a 5 man group weeks before everyone else so I didn't have rank 3 essence from visions few weeks earlier, I was pressured to reroll to the fotm class and when I refused, I ended up being replaced by a said fotm class on the last 2 bosses. That all in a guild that's past 250 world rank.

I killed the last boss now with a different guild, but I'm tired of this shit, it happens all the goddamn time and I think the community grew much more elitist since MDI / world first race is streamed and influences the perception. In the last 2 expansions 4 guilds I've been in didn't have any issue with me for months until suddenly they started having issue with the class I play and started claiming it's the reason we can't kill some specific boss.

And it wasn't just me, for example I know 2 people who played shadow priests and the moment they got nerfed in 8.3 both were mostly "raiding the bench" and pushed away from any progression. In 2 different guilds as well. I know a good resto druid that was benched for a grey parsing disc priest in EP, because "meta".

If anyone thinks you won't be scrutinized for picking X covenant if bloodmallet or some other source deems Y covenant "BIS" they're either very lucky to find a "rainbow unicorn" guild that doesn't do all the elitist garbage, or they're GM's "friend" that has special treatment (in my last guild there were "friends" of GM that always had best assignments to perform on dps meters, best assignments when they pop cooldowns, and everyone else had to do proverbial "bitch jobs", they were also never questioned while everyone else was), or most likely, they stick to content of no meaning like weekly m+ and heroic raiding where if you preform above 50% of your class capability you're already a hero. (All the posts about how "I beat everyone with my underdog class" are always taken from heroic raiding, every time, and if you check logs you'd see fotm classes with 20% parse that are "being beaten".)

Most people in this game do not have enough trusted friends that play all at the same time to form a m+ team not even mentioning a raid team. So sooner or later you reach the glass ceiling not of your skill, but of peer approval that is often related not to your skill, but to how much you grind and follow the meta. It applied to legion legendaries, to bfa corruptions, and will apply to shadowlands covenants no doubt about it.

TLDR: Only works if you stick to casual content.

[Nobleshield]

Not even then. The "midcore" players (the ones nowhere near as good as the top but better than average) are the ones who generally push for the min-max parrot the top stuff to become meta, and once that happens it will trickle down to everybody else. It happens all the time and that group is the largest, the ones who think they are god's gift to the game and insult other people (something you almost never see legit top players do) or think that you need to pretend every M+ is the final round of the MDI, that sort of person.

[Kralljin]

TLDR: Only works if you stick to casual content.

Obviously it gets more difficult as you move up the ladder.
But i could've made it more clearer that this applies more to more casual content rather mythic.

My point was more like that if you completely refuse to follow the Meta, then you should look for like minded people, rather than expect everyone to change their mindset.
But you might also have to live with the fact then you then end up with not so high end skilled players.

If anyone thinks you won't be scrutinized for picking X covenant if bloodmallet or some other source deems Y covenant "BIS" they're either very lucky to find a "rainbow unicorn" guild that doesn't do all the elitist garbage

Again, i'd argue that depends on the people you play with and the gap between the best option and worst one.

However, examples like

In 2 different guilds as well. I know a good resto druid that was benched for a grey parsing disc priest in EP, because "meta".

also highlight what i'm talking about, the gap betwen these things matter as well.

Especially on Azshara (by far the most difficult fight in EP), Disc just outperforms Resto Druid because of the encounter works.
Resto Druid are a massive trashfire in BfA as far as raiding is concerned, they cannot hold a candle to a Disc / Pally.

I generally want to portray this not as a black / white issue, balance does obviously matter, but it's not so much of a binary thing where the "good" must always be chosen and the "bad" is always discarded.

The actual discrepancy between the two must be taken into account.
But then again, if the Disc priest has gray parses, then one also needs to asked whether these people aren't so bad that they're actually unable to capitalize on the advantage they have.
If you as guild lead refuse to take the player behind the character into account, you might also be following the wrong path.

[Marrilaife]

@Nobleshield you mean the sort of people who decline you from m+15 for playing holy priest or guardian druid because that's not what they see on MDI? Yes, it's becoming more and more common and it got worse with 1) widespread streaming 2) class stacking being more and more overused by true top players. For example legion MDIs had much less class stacking than the recent ones and bigger team comp variety, if I see season2 teams having triple rogue or season4 teams having triple hunter what message does it leave to the audience.

[Lolites]

95% of MMO-Champ Armchair strategists aren't pushing 20+ keys for M+.

95% of MMO-Champ Armchair strategists aren't pushing Mythic raiding as cutting edge, hardcore raiders looking to be in the top 10 world rankings.

95% of MMO-Champ Armchair strategists aren't past 2k in Arena/Rated BG ratings.

All the toxic doomsaying makes me wonder why they even bother playing this game? I'm willing to bet if you search their post history, have they been complaining about every god damned thing they possibly can?

I run mythic dungeons. I'd love to run mythic raiding in SL, but I'm not gonna min-max the shit out of the covenents and soulbinds -- I like my toon to be badass looking while I'm stomping on baddies.

95% of MMO-Champ Armchair strategists aren't getting paid to play the game, so don't act like it's a job or a chore. If it's either, it's best to find something else to do until yo feel it isn't.

ironicaly, some people from method actualy said they like covnenat and its "permanent" choice... the guys that aim for world first and would break their mothers legs for 0,01% increase in performance are ok with it, but mmo-champs that do lfr and +2 keys are not... for some reasons...

[EbaumsTipster]

ironicaly, some people from method actualy said they like covnenat and its "permanent" choice... the guys that aim for world first and would break their mothers legs for 0,01% increase in performance are ok with it, but mmo-champs that do lfr and +2 keys are not... for some reasons...

Probably because those people just like the abilities and don't care about being in a covenant they don't like aesthetically, because they realize it's literally just cosmetics and RP.

Which IS important to players, arguably the majority. But the top players won't care.

[Lolites]

If you can skip trash in M+ (as opposed to be forced to kill them all), Venthyr Teleport will be the meta for M+ due to it's immense versatility. No way around it.

if there was just another ability or potion that can be used to skip trash instead of killing it...

[Omedon]

ironicaly, some people from method actualy said they like covnenat and its "permanent" choice... the guys that aim for world first and would break their mothers legs for 0,01% increase in performance are ok with it, but mmo-champs that do lfr and +2 keys are not... for some reasons...

That actually really makes me smile and gives me "faith in humanity" vibes!

[qwerty123456]

ironicaly, some people from method actualy said they like covnenat and its "permanent" choice... the guys that aim for world first and would break their mothers legs for 0,01% increase in performance are ok with it, but mmo-champs that do lfr and +2 keys are not... for some reasons...

It's because they over play their skill level by playing what ever is op atm. It lets them do content they normally couldn't if all things were equal.

[Marrilaife]

But then again, if the Disc priest has gray parses, then one also needs to asked whether these people aren't so bad that they're actually unable to capitalize on the advantage they have.
If you as guild lead refuse to take the player behind the character into account, you might also be following the wrong path.

I had a rant about the disc issue few months ago and feel free to check I wasn't kidding: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52189122 These priests WERE performing poorly but 2 different GMs were so hellbent to have a disc in the roster at any cost they would rather have that than any other class. And yes, it was impossible to recruit a better disc due to extreme demand fuelled by "meta", if you were any decent at disc you could easily go to world top 100 guild.

[Molvonos]

ironicaly, some people from method actualy said they like covnenat and its "permanent" choice... the guys that aim for world first and would break their mothers legs for 0,01% increase in performance are ok with it, but mmo-champs that do lfr and +2 keys are not... for some reasons...

Yea, funny thing, that.

Most of the people who bitch, whine, and moan on these forums do it because they have nothing better to do. They're being edgy (and superfluous), trying to get reactions out of people, etc.

If Method's saying that, I imagine it's because it means less work for them. Considering how much they have to do, in order to be the Top 1% (which their paychecks are basically staked on), anything that gives them just a little bit more breathing room would be appreciated.

I mean, consider Corruptions prior to the vendor (which helps only marginally). They had to keep running stuff, over and over and over, to hopefully get the RNG on their side to get the corruptions they needed for that extra push. Oh, It's TD1 and not TD3? 20 more hours of grinding M+.

I don't think people realize that (or they do and don't care because they're feeding their egos). In this last patch, those Top 1%'ers had to grind out the gear with corruptions, had to grind out the currency to buy corruptions, had to grind out mementos to slap Gemslots on all their gear, which meant grinding out all the Coalescing Visions they could from any source.

On top of grinding out gold/materials for consumables, for tradeskill shit (to hopefully get that lucky corruption), grinding out PvP for those classes who's essences are BiS...

Etc etc etc.

Every single person (poster or commenter) who's bitching about being locked into a Covenent has 0% reason to bitch about min-maxing unless you're a die hard, raider, PvPer or M+'er.